Not attending brother's wedding

[whatevergirl]

YES!

To the sinning couple and to those watching it shows approval of the sin.

*Interesting. I attended my nephew’s wedding, 5 years ago (he has since divorced recently) and he was raised Catholic, but had his ‘wedding’ in a Presbyterian church. I have been to confession over this, since his wedding…as I always felt a little ‘‘unsure’’ about my attending that wedding. I am glad I did…but for whatever it’s worth-- I was NOT in approval of his ‘‘union’’ with his wife outside of the Church, so maybe some people attend, and they, like me, feel great pain over it. Despite attending. *

 

[whatevergirl]

I was originally speaking in general against the fuzzy-wuzzies posted earlier.

*Ah! Thus the bunny emoticons. I was like…why is he posting little bunnies?

Being on vacation for this long, makes one’s mind mushy. *

 

[that_name]

You sinned and repented, it is over and done with.

The question is, would you attend an invalid wedding today or would you tell the friend/family member “I’d ask you to respect my faith and not invite me to attend a wedding that the Church considers invalid”.

 

[adrift]

Apples and snowshoes.

An invalid marriage is a mockery of a Sacrament, it is a grave sin and shows the public intention to continue in a grave sin.

A funeral is not a public recognition of a desire to contiune in obstinate sin.

Why is it love to attend an invalid marriage and by indication not love to stand firm in the faith?

It doesn’t make sense.

My child wants an abortion so I should take her to the clinic to show her love?

It does not seem like love to me.

I applaud the OP for not falling for situation ethics.

 

[whatevergirl]

You sinned and repented, it is over and done with.

The question is, would you attend an invalid wedding today or would you tell the friend/family member “I’d ask you to respect my faith and not invite me to attend a wedding that the Church considers invalid”.

*Earlier in the thread, I suggested for the OP to attend his brother’s wedding, as I recalled attending my nephew’s …and then going to confession, because of how badly I felt about it. I didn’t feel badly necessarily when I attended it, but never felt ‘‘good’’ about it. Felt he was violating the Church. I did feel that. But, now, knowing all I have learned since then about these types of situations, and how my faith is more important to me than the feelings of men, even family…I probably would not go. But, if the OP chooses to go, I know that it is a hard position to be in, and I feel it’s between him and God. We cannot determine the state of one’s soul based on these circumstances and the facts presented in this thread. We as mere mortals, cannot determine the state of one’s soul to begin with, in any circumstance. *

 

[Norseman82]

*Earlier in the thread, I suggested for the OP to attend his brother’s wedding, as I recalled attending my nephew’s …and then going to confession, because of how badly I felt about it. I didn’t feel badly necessarily when I attended it, but never felt ‘‘good’’ about it. Felt he was violating the Church. I did feel that. But, now, knowing all I have learned since then about these types of situations, and how my faith is more important to me than the feelings of men, even family…I probably would not go. But, if the OP chooses to go, I know that it is a hard position to be in, and I feel it’s between him and God. We cannot determine the state of one’s soul based on these circumstances and the facts presented in this thread. We as mere mortals, cannot determine the state of one’s soul to begin with, in any circumstance. *

The confusion is understandable. Back in the “old days”, there was clear written guidance in a book that everyone took as authoritative (the Baltimore Catechism) that said we are not to attend such “weddings”. Now, there isn’t, because we have often been told, rightly or wrongly, that “it doesn’t apply anymore”. It was suggested that the OP contact his parish priest; however, you can get conflicting answers even there, assuming you get a straight answer at all.

 

[Cajun_Girl]

"Jul 9, '07, 1:42 am
From Michelle Arnold CAF Apologist
Re: What are the rules for attending weddings?
In your own particular situation, we don’t know whether or not the wedding was presumptively valid because we don’t know whether the bride had the dispensations necessary to marry a non-Catholic in a non-Catholic ritual. ** Even presuming the wedding was presumptively invalid though, the Church does not explicitly forbid Catholics from attending invalid marriages and so Catholics must use their own prudential judgment in discerning attendance on a case-by-case basis. From what you’ve told me, it does not appear to me that you need to confess attending this wedding. **

As for general rules:
Catholics may attend all presumptively-valid marriages of Catholics, non-Catholics, and non-Christians.
For Catholics marrying other Catholics or marrying a non-Catholic Christian or non-Christian, a wedding is presumptively valid if it is done in accordance with Catholic marital law. Catholics marrying non-Catholic Christians or non-Christians need a dispensation from cult to marry the non-Catholic party and a dispensation from form if they are marrying in a non-Catholic ritual.
For non-Catholics and non-Christians who are marrying other non-Catholics or non-Christians, a wedding can be considered presumptively valid if there are no known impediments to the marriage. The most common impediments that outsiders are likely to know about would be previous marriage, close blood relationship, or same-sex partners. If none of these impediments are known to exist, a prospective guest may presume that the wedding will be valid.
** The Church does not explicitly forbid Catholics from attending presumptively-invalid marriages. Catholics must use their own prudential judgment in making the decision, keeping in mind the need to uphold the Catholic understanding of the sanctity of marriage. One rule of thumb that may be helpful in making such decisions might be to ask yourself if you believe the couple is doing the best that they can to act honorably and according to the truth that they have. So, for example, you might decide to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who is expecting a child; but decline to attend the presumptively-invalid wedding of a couple who have engaged in adultery and destroyed previous marriages and families. **
While there may be just reason to attend a particular wedding that will be presumptively-invalid, I cannot recommend participating as a member of the wedding party in such weddings. There is a difference between attending as a non-participating observer and actively involving yourself in the wedding as an honor attendant.
If you are not attending the wedding as a matter of principle, then I cannot recommend attending a reception or giving a gift to honor an occasion that you believe in conscience that you cannot celebrate. I do recommend though writing the couple a letter in which you express your love and that you will pray for them. (If prudence suggests it, it is fine to withhold from them what you will be praying to God that they obtain, such as the grace of repentance and conversion.)
In the case of same-sex partners, the Church has spoken so strongly against “same-sex marriage” that I cannot recommend attending or celebrating “same-sex weddings” under any circumstances.
Recommended reading:"

Should I Attend?

---

“If anyone comes to me, I want to lead them to Him.” --St. Edith Stein

Recent apologetics answers by Michelle Arnold

Thought this would help!

This is the best advice that I’ve found on this difficult situation and is worth repeating.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Cajun Girl, I thought I had read even in this thread, something along these lines. Too lazy to scroll back through, however. This is why it IS confusing to a degree, to be in such a situation. There are some circumstances, that presented with the facts, we just have to make the very best decision. Perhaps in this circumstance, (the OP’s)…his brother is denying Church teaching, so it seems a bit more in depth than someone (like my nephew) who married outside the Church, but didn’t denouce Church teachings.

Ahhhh…I hate grey areas in life like this! *

 

[VonDerTann]

Looking at these posts, I sincerely think a lot of posters here have completely warped theology.

First off, lots of posters keep having this fixation where everything is a sin, or needs to be confessed, or needs to be discussed with a priest to discern if it is sin, etc. That, in and of itself, displays an over-scrupulosity which is, quite frankly, not in keeping with the message of the Gospels…and is, quite frankly, a reason why lots of non-Catholics think many Catholics only think about sin (based on this board, that seems to be true).

That_name keeps insisting that a marriage between non-Catholics is “invalid,” despite the fact that this position is not in keeping with Catholic Church’s view. I’ve asked for some support for this position; I never saw it. Now going is not just a sin, it’s a GRAVE sin.

Jesus gave us the Beatitudes. He told to visit the imprisoned, not shun them. He told us to be peacemakers. He told us to be merciful.

Lots of posters are defending “condemn actions!” and “Jesus turned over tables in the Temple!,” etc. The problem with that is that very few posters seem to show any degree of love, mercy, proverbial willingness to “visit the imprisoned,” etc. When challenged to do so, they respond with the argument that to do otherwise is to believe in some sort of “warm fuzzy, bunny religion.”

However, the “Catholism” I see LOTS of posters here ascribing to is a religion where essentially any interaction with a non-Christian needs to be avoided, as some sort of occasion of not just sin, but grave sin: Don’t go to a non-Christian wedding…or a funeral…turn over tables in the Temple, because Jesus did it…shun others…name-call others as being “warm fuzzy bunny worshippers”…run off to the Baltimore Catechism, Canon Law, etc., as to the “legality” of certain actions when a comonsense view is that they are morally allowable or at least morally neutral, etc…all of which completely misses the forest for the trees. I posit that the Baltimore Catechism, Canon Law, etc.,are the trees…but the forest is Jesus, and, for example, the Beatitudes. Does boycotting the CHRISTIAN wedding of a BROTHER make the OP a “peacemaker”? Do you think the Pope would approve of boycotting your brother’s wedding? Come ON, people, this version of Catholicism some of you are espousing seems awfully hard hearted, bordering on bloodthirsty and, quite frankly, cannot be defended (except maybe via interpretations of canon law, catechisms which are no longer binding, etc…in other words, you are arguing over interpretations of documents the way protestants argue over interpretations of the Bible!).

So I’m left with, to the OP: GO. Please, go, and enjoy yourself. And don’t be swayed by the warped theology masquerading as Catholicism you see elsewhere on this thread.

 

[Cajun_Girl]

*Cajun Girl, I thought I had read even in this thread, something along these lines. Too lazy to scroll back through, however. This is why it IS confusing to a degree, to be in such a situation. There are some circumstances, that presented with the facts, we just have to make the very best decision. Perhaps in this circumstance, (the OP’s)…his brother is denying Church teaching, so it seems a bit more in depth than someone (like my nephew) who married outside the Church, but didn’t denouce Church teachings.

Ahhhh…I hate grey areas in life like this! *

It’s definitely a moral gray area! I’ve noticed that some posters want to say that the OP is morally bound to attend this service, and some are saying that he is morally bound to boycott it. According to the Appologists’ post–and I find their advice to be quite good in general–the OP is free to take either course, provided that he prayerfully considers his actions.

Maybe the OP does need to ask himself what happens after the wedding. Will he have a relationship with his brother, sister-in-law, and future nieces and nephews? I have a family member who left the Church but who is still a practicing Christian, and I couldn’t imagine cutting her out of my life. Being in her home is a daily challenge for me to be an outstanding Catholic, in the hopes that my example will mean something to her. And I always have hope in the mercy of God, knowing that the Church teaches that we may just find some of our non-Catholic brothers and sisters in heaven along with us!

 

[tweetymom]

Looking at these posts, I sincerely think a lot of posters here have completely warped theology.

First off, lots of posters keep having this fixation where everything is a sin, or needs to be confessed, or needs to be discussed with a priest to discern if it is sin, etc. That, in and of itself, displays an over-scrupulosity which is, quite frankly, not in keeping with the message of the Gospels…and is, quite frankly, a reason why lots of non-Catholics think many Catholics only think about sin (based on this board, that seems to be true).

That_name keeps insisting that a marriage between non-Catholics is “invalid,” despite the fact that this position is not in keeping with Catholic Church’s view. I’ve asked for some support for this position; I never saw it. Now going is not just a sin, it’s a GRAVE sin.

Jesus gave us the Beatitudes. He told to visit the imprisoned, not shun them. He told us to be peacemakers. He told us to be merciful.

Lots of posters are defending “condemn actions!” and “Jesus turned over tables in the Temple!,” etc. The problem with that is that very few posters seem to show any degree of love, mercy, proverbial willingness to “visit the imprisoned,” etc. When challenged to do so, they respond with the argument that to do otherwise is to believe in some sort of “warm fuzzy, bunny religion.”

However, the “Catholism” I see LOTS of posters here ascribing to is a religion where essentially any interaction with a non-Christian needs to be avoided, as some sort of occasion of not just sin, but grave sin: Don’t go to a non-Christian wedding…or a funeral…turn over tables in the Temple, because Jesus did it…shun others…name-call others as being “warm fuzzy bunny worshippers”…run off to the Baltimore Catechism, Canon Law, etc., as to the “legality” of certain actions when a comonsense view is that they are morally allowable or at least morally neutral, etc…all of which completely misses the forest for the trees. I posit that the Baltimore Catechism, Canon Law, etc.,are the trees…but the forest is Jesus, and, for example, the Beatitudes. Does boycotting the CHRISTIAN wedding of a BROTHER make the OP a “peacemaker”? Do you think the Pope would approve of boycotting your brother’s wedding? Come ON, people, this version of Catholicism some of you are espousing seems awfully hard hearted, bordering on bloodthirsty and, quite frankly, cannot be defended (except maybe via interpretations of canon law, catechisms which are no longer binding, etc…in other words, you are arguing over interpretations of documents the way protestants argue over interpretations of the Bible!).

So I’m left with, to the OP: GO. Please, go, and enjoy yourself. And don’t be swayed by the warped theology masquerading as Catholicism you see elsewhere on this thread.

Amen to your post and I am glad that these people aren’t God and my judge and jury.

 

[Cristiano]

Looking at these posts, I sincerely think a lot of posters here have completely warped theology.

First off, lots of posters keep having this fixation where everything is a sin, or needs to be confessed, or needs to be discussed with a priest to discern if it is sin, etc. That, in and of itself, displays an over-scrupulosity which is, quite frankly, not in keeping with the message of the Gospels…and is, quite frankly, a reason why lots of non-Catholics think many Catholics only think about sin (based on this board, that seems to be true).

That_name keeps insisting that a marriage between non-Catholics is “invalid,” despite the fact that this position is not in keeping with Catholic Church’s view. I’ve asked for some support for this position; I never saw it. Now going is not just a sin, it’s a GRAVE sin.

Jesus gave us the Beatitudes. He told to visit the imprisoned, not shun them. He told us to be peacemakers. He told us to be merciful.

Lots of posters are defending “condemn actions!” and “Jesus turned over tables in the Temple!,” etc. The problem with that is that very few posters seem to show any degree of love, mercy, proverbial willingness to “visit the imprisoned,” etc. When challenged to do so, they respond with the argument that to do otherwise is to believe in some sort of “warm fuzzy, bunny religion.”

However, the “Catholism” I see LOTS of posters here ascribing to is a religion where essentially any interaction with a non-Christian needs to be avoided, as some sort of occasion of not just sin, but grave sin: Don’t go to a non-Christian wedding…or a funeral…turn over tables in the Temple, because Jesus did it…shun others…name-call others as being “warm fuzzy bunny worshippers”…run off to the Baltimore Catechism, Canon Law, etc., as to the “legality” of certain actions when a comonsense view is that they are morally allowable or at least morally neutral, etc…all of which completely misses the forest for the trees. I posit that the Baltimore Catechism, Canon Law, etc.,are the trees…but the forest is Jesus, and, for example, the Beatitudes. Does boycotting the CHRISTIAN wedding of a BROTHER make the OP a “peacemaker”? Do you think the Pope would approve of boycotting your brother’s wedding? Come ON, people, this version of Catholicism some of you are espousing seems awfully hard hearted, bordering on bloodthirsty and, quite frankly, cannot be defended (except maybe via interpretations of canon law, catechisms which are no longer binding, etc…in other words, you are arguing over interpretations of documents the way protestants argue over interpretations of the Bible!).

So I’m left with, to the OP: GO. Please, go, and enjoy yourself. And don’t be swayed by the warped theology masquerading as Catholicism you see elsewhere on this thread.

Wow! talking about being judgmental and using warped theology. Good idea, we should disregard the Catechism and Canon Law in favor of commonsense views.Why should we wonder about what we are supposed to do by using the tools that Jesus gifted us through the Church. Kumbaya!

 

[whatevergirl]

*It’s definitely a tough spot to be in…my blessings and prayers to you, OP, as you decide this through. The most ideal thing of course would be between now and the wedding…your brother comes back to the faith, and his fiancee converts. Then, no ‘‘choice’’ would be needed on your part, OP.

As Catholics in general, we are not permitted to condemn anyone in sin. Only God can do this…we can however, according to what we know as Truth, discern situations. We are called to make holy decisions based on this, and we are to help others to see Truth. To live Truth. But, we cannot judge as to condemn, if our brothers and sisters are not living in Truth, and are sinning.*

 

[whatevergirl]

Wow! talking about being judgmental and using warped theology. Good idea, we should disregard the Catechism and Canon Law in favor of commonsense views.Why should we wonder about what we are supposed to do by using the tools that Jesus gifted us through the Church. Kumbaya!

Yeah, in reading through this thread a bit more…It seems that many are talking past each other…missing each other’s points. Cajun Girl posted what an apologist had to say…it seems to be the Church’s stand. (she reposted I should say what another poster in here mentioned earlier) Personally, I think that makes the most sense, plus it IS based on Church teaching. The Church does take an ‘official’ stance on this.

 

[VonDerTann]

Using sarcasm only underscores my point, Cristiano. You have unwittingly demonstrated exactly the hardheartedness I am posting about. If this is how you treat other Catholics, God help the non-Catholics you interact with.

We have commonsense views because God gave us brains to use. Although the Catechism is no doubt part of the tools God gives us, the Catechism…like the Bible…is not a “manual for every single occasion we will encounter in 2010,” nor does it purport to be. Life is much more complex than the Catechism ever is…so we have brains, to help us form our consciences. Making fun of me does not, quite frankly, do justice to the tools God gave YOU.

 

[that_name]

That_name keeps insisting that a marriage between non-Catholics is “invalid,” despite the fact that this position is not in keeping with Catholic Church’s view. I’ve asked for some support for this position; I never saw it. Now going is not just a sin, it’s a GRAVE sin.

Show me one place where I have stated what you claim.

The exact OPPOSITE is true. I have said over and over that non-Catholics, even non-Christians MAY enter a valid marriage.

The OP’s situation is that his brother is Catholic. Maybe you missed that little tidbit o information? This Catholic is thumbbing his nose at Church teaching and getting married outside the Church.

I posted a link to all the relevant Canon Law that shows as of Dec 15, 2009 there is no way a baptized Catholic can skate the laws on marriage

Kindly apologize for your errant statment about my claims.

 

[Cristiano]

Using sarcasm only underscores my point, Cristiano. You have unwittingly demonstrated exactly the hardheartedness I am posting about. If this is how you treat other Catholics, God help the non-Catholics you interact with.

We have commonsense views because God gave us brains to use. Although the Catechism is no doubt part of the tools God gives us, the Catechism…like the Bible…is not a “manual for every single occasion we will encounter in 2010,” nor does it purport to be. Life is much more complex than the Catechism ever is…so we have brains, to help us form our consciences. Making fun of me does not, quite frankly, do justice to the tools God gave YOU.

Pot, kettle, same thing!

 

[former_Catholic]

My name “Former Catholic” is my public disclaimer. I believe in the ordination of women and the Vatican does not. I may not agree with the Vatican, but I respect the Vatican and therefore make it clear to the community that I am not Catholic and am not to be considered a representative of Catholicism.

The Catholic relatives of the groom at his non-Catholic wedding will be on very public display to the greater community as proud and shining representatives of Catholicism. In order to not give scandal to the Church, these people are *obligated by the Catechism *to display speech and behavior that clearly demonstrates a spirit of celebration and brotherhood and that respects the couple’s chosen affiliation with another Christian denomination.

If his Catholic relatives are willing and able to demonstrate an honest and very public spirit of celebration and brotherhood and respect and honor their son’s affiliation with another Christian denomination, they should by all means go to the wedding.

If his Catholic relatives cannot honestly demonstrate an honest and very public spirit of celebration and brotherhood nor respect nor honor their son’s affiliation with another Christian denomination, they should NOT go to the wedding.

Anything less than honestly and publicly demonstrating a true spirit of Christian brotherhood with another Christian denomination, as proscribed in the Catechism, risks bringing public scandal and embarrassment on the Church.

[edited]

 

[bekalc]

I just think that its important to note that the Church doesn’t say that we cannot attend invalid ceremonies. And because of this, I feel like you should go for the sake of your relationship with your brother and his wife.

The thing is showing a harsh stance, I think won’t really bring him back to the Church…However if you have a relationship with them, and do your best to welcome her, even if you disagree with the means they are using to get married.

Plus if you are in their life, maybe then you could have a better conversation with them than if you aren’t in their life. Here’s an idea I thought of. Why not have dinner with them, and then quitely talk to both of them about your feelings about him leaving the Church. Instead of ooohh your sinning, why not address actually his issues with the Church. You can say that at times some people tend to misrepresent the teachings of Catholicism, and because your family spent so much time and effort trying to install the faith in your brother. You’d appreciate it if they both read this book… (Any recommendations guys) about what the Catholic faith means and teaches.

Sometimes you can catch more bees with honey so to speak.

 

[urstormy]

Hello,

My niece, who was baptized catholic married in the catholic church. She is now divorced-no annulment, and is remarrying in a baptist church. She has said she is no longer catholic. She doesn’t attend the catholic church. Can I attend this wedding or is she still considered married in the catholic church? I would like to go, and I don’t want to cause any hurt feelings, but I’m not sure if it’s right in the eyes of the catholic church.

Thank you!