Not attending brother's wedding

[VonDerTann]

OP: Go. By all means, go.

Some points to consider:

1. I echo the sentiment that by not going you are causing a serious rift in the family…
2. …whoch may have serious repercussions. Do your parents understand that this may cause them to be denied access to grandkids in a few years?
3. He’s 24 (still pretty young). Many, many people spend some years wandering in the spiritual desert. He may be doing that…but by not going, you are really driving a stake into the heart of his new marriage. What will you say when he comes back to the faith in 3-4 years, but still remembers who showed & who didn’t?
4. Okay, so he’s marrying a non-catholic…as was said above, it’s not ideal. But it’s not like he’s “shacking up with a showgirl in Las Vegas.” He may be reaching conclusions which are not correct, but – in this tangled world – at least consider that he’s a) marrying at all, and b) marrying a Christian.

As to the post which said, “As a Catholic, this person is bound by Canon law. They have to marry according to the laws of the Chruch. They can never marry validly outside of that law…Good for your parents in sticking up for morality and faith! In the end, your brother will respect them for their faith.”

–That’s really, really harsh, and really, really legalistic. It also does not seem to reconcile with what the real-world impact of non-attendance will be.

–Remember that we are the only gospel some people will ever read. To say “Good for his parents?” And that the “brother will respect them [for it]?” Don’t go to your own son’s wedding? Will that really cause respect? Or destroy it? By not attending, they give the worst possible example of what will appear to be judgmentalism & hypocrisy in action. The only thing that not going does – aside from destroying the parent-child relationship – is drive sonny closer into the arms of the protestant guests, who will say to him, in essence, “your parents are hypocritical/nuts/evil/fill in the blank…but we’re not like that, you’re welcome to worship with us…” and another Catholic is gone for good.

 

[tbcrawford]

OP: Go. By all means, go.

Some points to consider:

1. I echo the sentiment that by not going you are causing a serious rift in the family…
2. …whoch may have serious repercussions. Do your parents understand that this may cause them to be denied access to grandkids in a few years?
3. He’s 24 (still pretty young). Many, many people spend some years wandering in the spiritual desert. He may be doing that…but by not going, you are really driving a stake into the heart of his new marriage. What will you say when he comes back to the faith in 3-4 years, but still remembers who showed & who didn’t?
4. Okay, so he’s marrying a non-catholic…as was said above, it’s not ideal. But it’s not like he’s “shacking up with a showgirl in Las Vegas.” He may be reaching conclusions which are not correct, but – in this tangled world – at least consider that he’s a) marrying at all, and b) marrying a Christian.

As to the post which said, “As a Catholic, this person is bound by Canon law. They have to marry according to the laws of the Chruch. They can never marry validly outside of that law…Good for your parents in sticking up for morality and faith! In the end, your brother will respect them for their faith.”

–That’s really, really harsh, and really, really legalistic. It also does not seem to reconcile with what the real-world impact of non-attendance will be.

–Remember that we are the only gospel some people will ever read. To say “Good for his parents?” And that the “brother will respect them [for it]?” Don’t go to your own son’s wedding? Will that really cause respect? Or destroy it? By not attending, they give the worst possible example of what will appear to be judgmentalism & hypocrisy in action. The only thing that not going does – aside from destroying the parent-child relationship – is drive sonny closer into the arms of the protestant guests, who will say to him, in essence, “your parents are hypocritical/nuts/evil/fill in the blank…but we’re not like that, you’re welcome to worship with us…” and another Catholic is gone for good.

Excellent post

 

[Carlan]

Oh, I would

If they were marrying in some sort of satanic ceremony… I wouldn’t go

If they were marrying our first cousin… I wouldn’t go

If they were marrying someone who I knew was physically abusive to them, or they to the other person… I wouldn’t go

I’m all for, ‘I’ll accept my loved one no matter what’… but I also know that there are some things that push it all out of the ‘no matter what’ box.

At some point, I believe that there are limits. I can’t do anything and think it’s ok. I would hope that if I go beyond the limits, my family would say, ‘that’s not kewl’, ‘that’s not acceptable’.

I also pray that my reasons would not be ‘petty’ and my reaction would work to alert them to the severity of their actions, and not just cause more strife.

Why our (American) society has become a culture the worships permissiveness is scary and makes no sense to me.

Yes Apryl, I do believe many of us need a few doses of Father Coropi’s sermons.

These days too many Catholics make up their own rules on morality and cause much scandalCarlan

 

[Cristiano]

OP: Go. By all means, go.

Some points to consider:

1. I echo the sentiment that by not going you are causing a serious rift in the family…
   100% valid point this is something to seriously consider
2. …whoch may have serious repercussions. Do your parents understand that this may cause them to be denied access to grandkids in a few years?
   100% valid point this is something to seriously consider
3. He’s 24 (still pretty young). Many, many people spend some years wandering in the spiritual desert. He may be doing that…but by not going, you are really driving a stake into the heart of his new marriage. What will you say when he comes back to the faith in 3-4 years, but still remembers who showed & who didn’t?
   80% valid point this is something to seriously consider
4. Okay, so he’s marrying a non-catholic…as was said above, it’s not ideal. But it’s not like he’s “shacking up with a showgirl in Las Vegas.” He may be reaching conclusions which are not correct, but – in this tangled world – at least consider that he’s a) marrying at all, and b) marrying a Christian.
   Not a valid point by introducing the red herring by saying “shacking up with a showgirl in Las Vegas” you are passing a moral judgment on a profession that is not intrinsically evil. Also the statement that he is marring is false. The fact that the lady is a Christian is a good thing.

As to the post which said, “As a Catholic, this person is bound by Canon law. They have to marry according to the laws of the Chruch. They can never marry validly outside of that law…Good for your parents in sticking up for morality and faith! In the end, your brother will respect them for their faith.”

–That’s really, really harsh, and really, really legalistic. It also does not seem to reconcile with what the real-world impact of non-attendance will be.
This is 100% moral relativism. Moral relativism is harsh because it is a refusal to consider the impact on the eternal life of the soul. The laws on the Church are there for our benefit and not for God’s benefit.

–Remember that we are the only gospel some people will ever read. To say “Good for his parents?” And that the “brother will respect them [for it]?” Don’t go to your own son’s wedding? Will that really cause respect? Or destroy it? By not attending, they give the worst possible example of what will appear to be judgmentalism & hypocrisy in action. The only thing that not going does – aside from destroying the parent-child relationship – is drive sonny closer into the arms of the protestant guests, who will say to him, in essence, “your parents are hypocritical/nuts/evil/fill in the blank…but we’re not like that, you’re welcome to worship with us…” and another Catholic is gone for good.

Are they being judgmental of actions? Yes, and it is a good thing we are required to do so. Are they judging him into hell? No, and it is good because we are not allowed to do so. Hypocrisy in action? Yes, if they disregard the Church teachings and they do not communicate with charity and clarity. Hypocrisy, is pretending that the Church laws are fine and dandy but only when they do not apply to us or to the people that we love.

I think that the O.P. should speak with his spiritual director/confessor and make sure that his conscience is properly formed, and if he is still in doubt he should obey his spiritual director/confessor.

I can see good coming out by going to the wedding and good by not going. Good comes from doing right. However, good also comes from evil actions, but that does not justify us in doing evil.

 

[VonDerTann]

Some additional thoughts, before I “stand down.”

I am going to modiy my remarks as to “Vegas Showgirls” to the extent I may have painted that profession with a broad brush. My point, of course, is that OP’s brother is having a Christian marriage to a Christian woman – which is different than him announcing, “I’m renouncing the faith and moving in with a latter-day Jezebel, and we want you to come visit us so we can turn you off on this nonsensical religion ‘thing.’”

As to the “statement that he is marrying is false,” I must assume that you think all non-Catholic marriages are thereby false, and/or “invalid in the eyes of God.” I do not think the Catholic Church teaches anything of the sort; if it did, a woman married in a Baptist Church would be “fair game” for any unmarried Catholic guy.

Moreover, I am not backing off my beliefs, that declining the invitation is not to be equated with being 'standing up for one’s faith," since that it not the case.

I can’t really consider how good comes from declining the invite – but I can see a whole lot of hate, broken families, inter-Christian animosity, etc., arising therefrom. Not looking at the consequences of one’s actions does not moral relativism make.

 

[Sparki777]

The Church teaches that two baptized people confer the Sacrament of Matrimony upon each other, which means that even a marriage performed in a non-Catholic church can be valid and licit.

However, in this particular case, it’s clear that the brother is rejecting the concept of Sacrament as defined by Catholicism.

Still and all, the question is not “Who gets to judge the brother?” or “Who gets to condemn the brother?” or “Who gets to tell the brother that he is fallen from Grace and better get with it before his feet are singed in the fires of hell?”

The question is, “How does a devout Catholic respond to the situation in a way that is (a) not sinful and (b) encourages the brother and his wife-to-be to return to the Church?”

At least, that’s the question we are supposed to be answering, IMHO.

I have heard priests offer advice ranging from, “Don’t go to the wedding, but go to the reception and bring a nice gift,” to “Go to the wedding, but make it clear beforehand that you cannot have an active role (i.e., Best Man) and that the situation would be entirely different if he would get dispensation to marry out side the Church” to “Go and say nothing, but pray diligently for him and his wife.”

I have never heard a priest advise, “Boycott the wedding and reception, don’t send a gift, don’t acknowledge the wife and hope the man comes to his sense.”

As I said in my initial response on page 1 of this thread, I don’t know the brother, so I can’t say which is the best response, the one that will encourage him to return to the Church. Only the original poster can answer that. And the brother. And the Lord.

 

[that_name]

To celebrate an invalid marriage is to celebrate sin. Period. Doing so is in and of itself the sin of scandal.

Ask the Apologists here, to paraphrase Mr. Akin on CA Live when questioned about attending these sham weddings “If God ain’t going to show up, neither will I”.

 

[VonDerTann]

That_name, you can paraphrase anyone you want.

However, if you are really, really suggesting that a church marriage between 2 non-catholic Christians is a “sham,” and that merely attending such an “invalid marriage,” is a “celebration of sin,” I respectfully posit that you will likely find no support for such an position in a) the teaching of the Catholic Church (my quick skim of the Cathecism indicates that it appears silent as to your points, although it repeatedly references Christian marriages, not merely Catholic ones); or b) human reason; as I posited before, are you really, REALLY saying that a woman married in a Baptist Church is unmarried, and hence “available for marriage,” in the eyes of the Catholic Church? For that matter, under such a curious interpretation, God is certainly not present in a Jewish wedding…which leads to the problem of the fact that Jesus’ appearance at the wedding at Cana – which was most certainly a “wedding” – and his working a miracle there – appears at complete odds with your view. I’m sorry, I respectfully do not believe Catholic teaching will support your view of non-Catholic marriages as “shams” or than attending same is “celebrating sin.”

 

[whatevergirl]

*Gosh, this is such a hard one. It really is…nothing easy about it. On the one hand, you feel JMJ that going might cause you to feel like you’re sinning, by ‘‘celebrating’’ the ceremony. On the other, if you don’t go, the rift that will be created between you and your brother, etc…will be hard (not impossible though) to fix.

Not going, you can’t ever take back. Going to the wedding, I don’t think you will have as great of a regret, as not going. Not going, can’t be undone. Going, you can wish your brother well in his marriage…BUT…by going, you remain in his life. In times like these, you might be your brother’s only hope to coming back to the faith. But, not going to the wedding, you remove yourself from even being heard by him, at least for a while…but maybe–ever.

Pray about this, discuss it with your priest…ultimately, you have to feel comfortable going to this wedding. To be honest, I did attend my nephew’s wedding, he is Catholic, but married a girl in a presbyterian church. This was about 6 years ago, he recently divorced. That’s neither here nor there, but I did go. I thought it was rather unfortunate that he wasn’t married in the Catholic Church, that he pretty much abandoned his faith for his wife. It’s always heart breaking to see that, you are not wrong to feel heartbroken. I grieve with you. I will say though, be there for your brother. You never know when he will be willing to listen to the Truth again…and you will be in his life to help.

I pray things work out for the best…it’s not an easy decision, I’m sorry you’re having to make such a tough choice!*

 

[Norseman82]

That_name, you can paraphrase anyone you want.

However, if you are really, really suggesting that a church marriage between 2 non-catholic Christians is a “sham,” and that merely attending such an “invalid marriage,” is a “celebration of sin,” I respectfully posit that you will likely find no support for such an position in a) the teaching of the Catholic Church (my quick skim of the Cathecism indicates that it appears silent as to your points, although it repeatedly references Christian marriages, not merely Catholic ones); or b) human reason; as I posited before, are you really, REALLY saying that a woman married in a Baptist Church is unmarried, and hence “available for marriage,” in the eyes of the Catholic Church? For that matter, under such a curious interpretation, God is certainly not present in a Jewish wedding…which leads to the problem of the fact that Jesus’ appearance at the wedding at Cana – which was most certainly a “wedding” – and his working a miracle there – appears at complete odds with your view. I’m sorry, I respectfully do not believe Catholic teaching will support your view of non-Catholic marriages as “shams” or than attending same is “celebrating sin.”

Although it is not explicitly mentioned in the JP2 CCC, the Baltimore Catechism did in fact discuss this subject (see q. 1040):

gutenberg.org/files/14553/14553.txt

And the print versions did say that Catholics could not attend or even give gifts.

I’m also sick and tired of hearing this lame excuse to justify things:

Many, many people spend some years wandering in the spiritual desert.

 

[VonDerTann]

As to the Baltimore Catecism, I read quite a bit, but it never really says one cannot attend a non-catholic marriage. It excommunicates a Catholic who gets married…although here you’ve got a person who says they are no longer still Catholic, so he probably would not care. Of course, the BC also says women should only approach the Blessed Sacrament with covered heads, etc. My point is simply that to say a non-Catholic marriage is a “sham” is inaccurate.

But the BC was interesting nonetheless. Thanks.

 

[Norseman82]

but it never really says one cannot attend a non-catholic marriage. .

One of the print versions did.

 

[whatevergirl]

So…what should we follow? I am under the impression that it would not be sinful to ‘‘attend’’ a non Catholic wedding. Would it be sinful to be ‘‘in’’ the wedding party, say as a maid of honor, etc if the wedding is non Catholic? I have never been asked to be in such a wedding party-but just curious. Hope you don’t mind me asking this here, JMJ? It’s slightly off topic but would be helpful to know for future reference, I think.

 

[that_name]

That_name, you can paraphrase anyone you want.

However, if you are really, really suggesting that a church marriage between 2 non-catholic Christians is a “sham,” and that merely attending such an “invalid marriage,” is a “celebration of sin,” I respectfully posit that you will likely find no support for such an position in a) the teaching of the Catholic Church (my quick skim of the Cathecism indicates that it appears silent as to your points, although it repeatedly references Christian marriages, not merely Catholic ones); or b) human reason; as I posited before, are you really, REALLY saying that a woman married in a Baptist Church is unmarried, and hence “available for marriage,” in the eyes of the Catholic Church? For that matter, under such a curious interpretation, God is certainly not present in a Jewish wedding…which leads to the problem of the fact that Jesus’ appearance at the wedding at Cana – which was most certainly a “wedding” – and his working a miracle there – appears at complete odds with your view. I’m sorry, I respectfully do not believe Catholic teaching will support your view of non-Catholic marriages as “shams” or than attending same is “celebrating sin.”

The person who was baptized Catholic (go back and read post #1) cannot enter a valid marriage without following the laws of the Church.

They are bound to marry in the Church or may request from the Bishop a dispensation from form to be married in another place (Baptist congregation) or a disparity of cult to marry a non-Christian (to marry a Mormon or a Jew for example).

Baptists who are free to marry can marry Baptists all day long. Jewish people who are free to marry may marry Methodists and Assemblies of God may marry monkey worshipping pagans.

Once someone is baptized Catholic they are THEN bound to follow the marriage laws of the Church. This is Canon Law - the section on marriage begins here vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3V.HTM

Someone does not become “unCatholic” by clicking one’s heels together and wishing it so, baptism leaves a mark that can never be removed.

 

[that_name]

My point is simply that to say a non-Catholic marriage is a “sham” is inaccurate.

.

Please, read the law on marriage for Catholics. This person is a Catholic.

 

[sharmin]

Respect for Parents and family should be very much considered also. To blatenly reject family and Church as he has done as told here, does not show respect on the other’s part.I would think ,If any forever block results, the brother must also take resposibility. Fogiveness is a biggie in this situation and lets pray it happens. Pride is the death of many a relationshipCarlan.

So it is better, in an effort to be respectful, to pretend to believe in the religion you were raised even if you do not? Do people seriously feel this way?

 

[Sparki777]

FACT #1: I was baptized Catholic. Wasn’t raised Catholic, but validly baptized Catholic.

FACT #2: Not knowing anything about Catholicism, I never practiced Catholicism and had no idea what any of the Sacraments were. None. What. So. Ever. Didn’t even know Baptism was a Sacrament.

FACT #3: I gave my life to Jesus when I was 24 years old in an evangelical church. I was baptized again because that church told me my Catholic baptism didn’t count, and I didn’t have any reason to doubt them.

FACT #4: I met my husband to be in the same church and we were married in the same church when I was 29 years old.

FACT #5: We were confirmed Catholic when I was 38 years old. Our marriage is considered valid in the Catholic Church, on authority of one of the canon lawyers in my diocese. Why? Because of Fact #3. My “re-baptism” was my official departure of Catholicism, and so my marriage to my husband was NOT illicit NOR invalid. In fact, I wanted to have our marriage convalidated, and I was told it wasn’t necessary. Please note that I live in one of the most orthodox dioceses in the US.

So, the one thing that has not been made clear about this situation is whether or not the original poster’s brother has been “re-baptized” or not. I’m guessing that since most non-denominational churches reject Catholic baptism and insist on “rebaptizing,” this brother has officially ended communion with the Catholic Church, which means his marriage in that church could indeed be valid. Hence, it would not be sinful to attend the wedding and it could indeed be helpful later in building the relationship that will encourage this brother to return to the Church.

 

[iluvmybabies]

What would Jesus do???
Jesus is divine and human at the same time. We are only humans and we do not have the power of doing everything that He would do. Do we have such a complete understanding of God that we can guess what He would do?

The only thing that we know for sure is that He would do the Father’s will! The Father’s will has already been told to us by Tradition and Scripture. We are simply to follow the Church laws with charity and clarity.

The Church does not see all marriages as valid and there is a big difference between an annulment and a lack of form.

Two souls do not become one through marriage. This is just new age mumbo jumbo.

Really because this is what I found in the BIBLE oh excuse me if I quote truth:

"GEN 2:23 The man said, “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my
flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man.”

24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to
his wife, and they will become one flesh."

That’s pretty much saying two become one, I don’t know how that’s modern mumbo jumbo?

And Jesus is the way, the life and the EXAMPLE therefore we are supposed to live by HIS EXAMPLE, and even though we don’t understand GOD nor Jesus doesn’t mean we can’t try and be like Jesus in HIS example of everlasting LOVE for one another, brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, friends, strangers…etc…

I doubt Jesus wouldn’t have turned away from anyone, he never did, not even to the prostitute about to get stoned…

 

[iluvmybabies]

Oh, I would

If they were marrying in some sort of satanic ceremony… I wouldn’t go I don’t think that’s the case here???

If they were marrying our first cousin… I wouldn’t go Nor that one?!

If they were marrying someone who I knew was physically abusive to them, or they to the other person… I wouldn’t go I doubt anyone would approve either…

I’m all for, ‘I’ll accept my loved one no matter what’… but I also know that there are some things that push it all out of the ‘no matter what’ box.

At some point, I believe that there are limits. I can’t do anything and think it’s ok. I would hope that if I go beyond the limits, my family would say, ‘that’s not kewl’, ‘that’s not acceptable’.

I also pray that my reasons would not be ‘petty’ and my reaction would work to alert them to the severity of their actions, and not just cause more strife.

Why our (American) society has become a culture the worships permissiveness is scary and makes no sense to me.

I don’t think you are permissing anything, that they are not getting married through the church is a painful thing, yes something difficult to accept, but they are still getting married, and even if the church doesn’t see every marriage as valid as some other poster put on here, they are still trying to follow through with loving each other till death do them part, well hopefully…at least…that’s always the hope right and we can’t lose hope…The main point is that the more inviting we are to them towards GOD and the church the more they will see the love and maybe want to be part of it, not be judged for their choices and mistakes makes people turn away…without understanding you know?!

 

[iluvmybabies]

The Church teaches that two baptized people confer the Sacrament of Matrimony upon each other, which means that even a marriage performed in a non-Catholic church can be valid and licit.

However, in this particular case, it’s clear that the brother is rejecting the concept of Sacrament as defined by Catholicism.

Still and all, the question is not “Who gets to judge the brother?” or “Who gets to condemn the brother?” or “Who gets to tell the brother that he is fallen from Grace and better get with it before his feet are singed in the fires of hell?”

The question is, “How does a devout Catholic respond to the situation in a way that is (a) not sinful and (b) encourages the brother and his wife-to-be to return to the Church?”

At least, that’s the question we are supposed to be answering, IMHO.

I have heard priests offer advice ranging from, “Don’t go to the wedding, but go to the reception and bring a nice gift,” to “Go to the wedding, but make it clear beforehand that you cannot have an active role (i.e., Best Man) and that the situation would be entirely different if he would get dispensation to marry out side the Church” to “Go and say nothing, but pray diligently for him and his wife.”

I have never heard a priest advise, “Boycott the wedding and reception, don’t send a gift, don’t acknowledge the wife and hope the man comes to his sense.”

As I said in my initial response on page 1 of this thread, I don’t know the brother, so I can’t say which is the best response, the one that will encourage him to return to the Church. Only the original poster can answer that. And the brother. And the Lord.

:yup::clapping:

This is what I have been trying to advise, great post! Can’t close the doors on someone making a mistake we must try to invite them back to GOD and the church with love not hate!