Not attending brother's wedding

[peary1]

Hello. My brother has been Catholic his whole 24 years of life until now. He wrote my mom and dad a letter stating he is no longer Catholic and the Catholic Church’s beliefs are not correct. He thinks all you need is the Bible which is bull because no where in the Bible does it say “Bible alone” and that is all. Anyways, he is getting married in a non-denominational bible church. My parents and I have informed him we will not be attending the wedding. We told him we love him very much but we just do not feel we can be there. To us, that would say we are condoning what he is doing. What he is doing is totally wrong. I was just wanting to know anyone else’s opinion. It is not easy deciding not to attend but I believe it is best. Any other thoughts? Thanks.

Yes. Even though all of you feel that you cannot attend his marriage, are they having a reception afterwards? The family could very well attend the reception. Remember, it is not *your *happiness to be concerned about, but his. Let God take care of the rest.

 

[Apryl]

Ha, well, that whole paragraph was a stab at some posts on this board that directly state that any marriage not in their church (in this case it just happened to be Catholic) was a “Public Formalization of Adultery” ceremony. If this is the case, then my “wife” is not really my wife, and any children we have are of course bastards. Just using neck deep sarcasm to point out others incredible ability to be an example of Gods love… See, there is that sarcasm again!

Well… yeah… I got that

I was just trying my own brand of sarcasm

 

[peary1]

Amazing - to those of you who encourage celebrating this fornication also celebrate other grave sins with your family? Do you go over and watch the first time your nephew gets falling down drunk - to support him and let him know that you love him? How about being the alibi for your sister so she can go have an affair, I mean, you don’t want to alienate her

What kind of a response is THAT?

 

[peary1]

There are a lot of misunderstandings about the Catholic Church’s attitude to marriage. The Catholic Church’s attitude and practice have changed enormously in recent years; many couples have needless difficulties due to lack of up-to-date information. Even priests and ministers sometimes have to check up on the latest rulings.

In European countries, over two thirds of the marriages involving a Catholic each year are mixed marriages. All Christian denominations teach that the love of a husband and wife is a precious gift from God.

The Church no longer requires to have all the children baptised and brought up Catholic. .(the Revised Directory) Couples who are of different Christian denominations have found that far from excluding other ideas from their children’s upbringing, their family life is enriched by sharing and becoming involved in both denominations.

The problem here is that the brother has rejected the Church butr he is still getting married within a Christian church. In order to get married outside of the Church, he would still need permission from a priest to do so. Obviously, this is not going to happen with his attitude being the way it is. The marriage will still be valid, however.

The family may not in good conscience attend the ceremony, but this isn’t about them, it’s about the brother and his wife-to-be. They might have second thoughts about this and at least one representative of the family can still go. But, if there is a reception afterwards, the family ought to go in order to show that, even although they may disagree with what he has done, they still will support him. The marriage WILL take place in a Christian setting, although it won’t be a Catholic church. Maybe someday the brother will get his head on str8.
.

 

[EasterJoy]

The problem here is that the brother has rejected the Church butr he is still getting married within a Christian church. In order to get married outside of the Church, he would still need permission from a priest to do so. Obviously, this is not going to happen with his attitude being the way it is. The marriage will still be valid, however.

Since both parties are validly baptised, then if the marriage is valid, then it is also sacramental:

Canon 1055.1 The marriage covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of their whole life, and which of its own very nature is ordered to the well-being of the spouses and to the procreation and upbringing of children, has, between the baptised, been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament.

Canon 1055.2 Consequently, a valid marriage contract cannot exist between baptised persons without its being by that very fact a sacrament.

…

Also, I’m not entirely sure that dispensation for a mixed marriage could even be given in this case. I’m not certain where the legal line is crossed by which that the Catholic party has “notoriously rejected the Catholic faith”, or whether or not the letter to the parents constitutes his formally having left the faith. He asserts in it that he is not merely lapsed or apathetic to the faith, but has willfully chosen to leave it for another sect:

He wrote my mom and dad a letter stating he is no longer Catholic and the Catholic Church’s beliefs are not correct. He thinks all you need is the Bible….

Canon 1071.2 The local Ordinary is not to give permission to assist at the marriage of a person who has notoriously rejected the Catholic faith unless, with the appropriate adjustments, the norms of canon 1125 have been observed.
…

Canon 1125 The local Ordinary can grant this permission if there is a just and reasonable cause. He is not to grant it unless the following conditions are fulfilled:

Canon 1125.1 the catholic party is to declare that he or she is prepared to remove dangers of defecting from the faith, and is to make a sincere promise to do all in his or her power in order that all the children be baptised and brought up in the catholic Church;

Canon 1125.2 the other party is to be informed in good time of these promises to be made by the catholic party, so that it is certain that he or she is truly aware of the promise and of the obligation of the catholic party.

Canon 1125.3 both parties are to be instructed about the purposes and essential properties of marriage, which are not to be excluded by either contractant.

 

[Hesychios]

… My parents and I have informed him we will not be attending the wedding. We told him we love him very much but we just do not feel we can be there. … Any other thoughts? Thanks.

Go to the wedding.

 

[EasterJoy]

Go to the wedding.

I think so, too. I do not know of a priest or bishop who would forbid it. If we are not forbidden by conscience or circumstance from attending a sibling’s wedding, we are obliged.

It would make it much easier to talk to one’s pastor for guidance, though, if one had misgivings, if for no other reason than being assured that it was OK. It would make it much easier to enjoy and add joy to the celebration.

**OP: **If your parents are suffering over this, too, make an appointment, go with your parents, take the letter in question, in case it is asked for, and talk to your parent’s pastor about this. If they’ve accepted the situation, then go by yourself to your own pastor. This is a situation where some pastoral help to discern and accept the situation might make a difference of night and day.

If your priest sees all the facts and has a chance to question you and consider your entire situation and still forbids you to go, then don’t go. Apologize for any hurt feelings, be very sure to let him know how you regret the situation and still want his every happiness, if you didn’t do so already when you let him know the first time that you told him you wouldn’t be attending. Bend over backwards to make this about his situation with the Church that you are still a member of, and not about him or what a wonderful and I am sure God-loving human being your future sister-in-law is.

Otherwise, go, and with your priest’s pastoral blessings, I’m sure.

And take this consolation with you, too: Remember that to your brother, this is about pleasing God instead of pleasing the Church. While he is in the wrong, he is in the wrong for the right reason. He is (at least in his mind) not doing this to please himself. That makes all the difference in the world. When you talk to him about religion in any way whatsoever, keep that most important desire that you do both still share always in the forefront. Even if it were to become clear that he does want to please himself, and is using God as a pretext, treat that pretense as if it were his real reason…because if you do, it is more likely to become his real reason. His desire to stick to the religion he was raised with, if that is what this turns out to be about, will be blunted, if the religion respond in the recognition that God is the most important thing in the conversation. That is the bridge between you, and between him and the Church. Concentrate on that.

 

[that_name]

One cannot please God and displease the Church. The Church IS the Bride of Christ.

 

[DanYetman]

This thread caught my eye as I have had some discussions with friends about this very topic. Some of the points we covered may be useful to you in making a decision.

1. the point of WWJD. Would Jesus have attended Herod’s wedding? (I’m sure he was a nice guy deep down)
   2)Will he be present at this wedding because it is another denomination? (technically he won’t as they don’t have the Eucharist)
2. If what your brother is doing is a sin, then by going are you showing acceptance for his sin? (which is a sin in itself)
   3a) If by attending would there be a scandal? (a perceived acceptance of your brothers choice as being an ok thing to do, and also a sin)
   3b) Is going to the reception and not the service ok? Is raising a glass in toast to someone who may be putting themselves in a permanent state of sin something we should do as a follower of Christ?
3. Would you celebrate with someone who has a disdain (or maybe even hatred) for Christ and his Church? (this may not so much be your brother as the pastor and members of this church)

There are many unknown things here for anyone to form a solid opinion or reasoning as to why you should attend. Just because he is your family and you don’t want to cause a rift is no reason. Jesus said he would cause division, and it looks like you are in the middle of it. The biggest missing piece is why your brother has formed the opinion he has, and just how “anti-catholic” he is.
I would take this to prayer before making any kind of decision. I would go in front of the Blessed Sacrament and talk with the Lord about your brother. But I also would try and find out as much about the denomination he is going to, why he’s going, what prompted him to choose this denomination, and how his future wife feels about this situation.
My wife and I recently could not attend a wedding to a nephew because after being brought up Catholic he decided not to get married in a Church and do it on the beach. Was it valid? Not sure, maybe. But did we feel as if he was turning his back on God? Yes we did, and that was the largest part of our decision not to attend. (we quietly declined to go, and didn’t have a lot of explaining to do as you will)

I will keep you and your family in my prayers.
Sincerely
Dan

 

[that_name]

Do some reading about John the Baptist and how far he was willing to stand up against invalid marriage. It is in the Gospels…

 

[johnnykins]

My wife and I recently could not attend a wedding to a nephew because after being brought up Catholic he decided not to get married in a Church and do it on the beach. Was it valid? Not sure, maybe. But did we feel as if he was turning his back on God? Yes we did, and that was the largest part of our decision not to attend. (we quietly declined to go, and didn’t have a lot of explaining to do as you will)

I will keep you and your family in my prayers.
Sincerely
Dan

How good of you to opt not to attend because of a feeling - why bother with facts? I say this because I was married to a Presbyterian in a Presbyterian Church with the necessary dispensations from the Diocese. I had an Aunt and Uncle who, much like you, took it upon themselves to ignore the wedding because I wasn’t married in the Church. They, of course, never bothered to ask me or my parents who knew I got the dispensations.

Perhaps before you decide next time on boycotting over “feel[ings]”, you should venture to see if maybe the Catholic got the dispensations. Then if you want to boycott, you won’t have the self-serving excuse that you are holier than the Church, when in fact your feelings are simply about mere aesthetics or worse.

 

[aimee]

How good of you to opt not to attend because of a feeling - why bother with facts? I say this because I was married to a Presbyterian in a Presbyterian Church with the necessary dispensations from the Diocese. I had an Aunt and Uncle who, much like you, took it upon themselves to ignore the wedding because I wasn’t married in the Church. They, of course, never bothered to ask me or my parents who knew I got the dispensations.

Perhaps before you decide next time on boycotting over “feel[ings]”, you should venture to see if maybe the Catholic got the dispensations. Then if you want to boycott, you won’t have the self-serving excuse that you are holier than the Church, when in fact your feelings are simply about mere aesthetics or worse.

from the posters explanation, it would seem obvious a dispensation was not sought.

seems to me you are a bit touchy on this…perhaps from your own experience. If they feel this way…I would give serious thought to not going. If it were say, my son, I would probably go…just to keep the door of communication open.

 

[johnnykins]

from the posters explanation, it would seem obvious a dispensation was not sought.

I have to disagree here. Th poster could easily have said so, if he knew. I seriously doubt he bothered. If he did bother, and did know, his posting is abysmally misleading.

seems to me you are a bit touchy on this…perhaps from your own experience.

Personal experience is a great teacher. By being subject to anti-Catholic bigotry, I have become much more attuned to racial and other bigotries. Touchy - I find the self-righteous “more Catholic than the Pope attitude” especially when based on sloth, if not outright stupidity, something to get “touchy” about. If they feel this way…I would give serious thought to not going. The problem here is the word 'feel" - feeling due to sloth or deliberate ignorance - not to mention bigotry, etc., - hardly supplies adequate justification. But, the self-righteous among us are rarely troubled by their own failings.

If it were say, my son, I would probably go…just to keep the door of communication open.

You, of course, know your son and would know the circumstances.

 

[DanYetman]

why bother with facts? QUOTE:

Exactly my thought here. You are so quick to put someone on a Holier then thou soapbox without getting any facts. FYI there was NO dispensation, or desire to be married in ANY church. I did check my facts before making my decision, but I must wonder from your post if you would do the same.

 

[aimee]

I have to disagree here. Th poster could easily have said so, if he knew. I seriously doubt he bothered. If he did bother, and did know, his posting is abysmally misleading.

Personal experience is a great teacher. By being subject to anti-Catholic bigotry, I have become much more attuned to racial and other bigotries. Touchy - I find the self-righteous “more Catholic than the Pope attitude” especially when based on sloth, if not outright stupidity, something to get “touchy” about.

If they feel this way…I would give serious thought to not going. The problem here is the word 'feel" - feeling due to sloth or deliberate ignorance - not to mention bigotry, etc., - hardly supplies adequate justification. But, the self-righteous among us are rarely troubled by their own failings.You, of course, know your son and would know the circumstances.

His post is not mis leading…I can understand it quite well.
As for your statement…" But, the self-righteous among us are rarely troubled by their own failings.’ you would know and understand this quite well…

God Bless

 

[EasterJoy]

from the posters explanation, it would seem obvious a dispensation was not sought.

seems to me you are a bit touchy on this…perhaps from your own experience. If they feel this way…I would give serious thought to not going. If it were say, my son, I would probably go…just to keep the door of communication open.

The question, though, is whether his letter to his parents does not indicate that he has formally left the Church. In that case, he is not in our eclesiastical communion and the Church does not hold his marriage to follow canon law. At any rate, he could not be given a dispensation, for the dispensation requires that the Catholic attest that the marriage will not be allowed to be an obstacle to the practice of the faith. Whether he has formally left the Church or not, the son has publicly and unequivocally embraced his apostate status. The bishop cannot give him dispensation to marry outside the Church.

If it were my son, I’d go. Yes, the son is in heresy, and I would not quibble with anyone who would not go on that account, parents and siblings included, if they were charitable in how they delieverd their regrets. There have been saints who would not break bread with heretics. Having said that, that is unlikely in our own time to pave the path to the son’s return. In the end, that is the standard: what does the family think is the best for the bride and groom’s souls, in the big picture of their entire lives and their eternity? This is a question that I think is best guessed out from on the ground and with pastoral help. This kind of situation is what pastoral care is all about. Priests endure all the daily detritus of parish life just in order to be available to help with this kind of problem.

To paraphrase Steven Covey: In the end, the main thing is to keep that main thing the main thing.

 

[EasterJoy]

This thread caught my eye as I have had some discussions with friends about this very topic. Some of the points we covered may be useful to you in making a decision.

1. the point of WWJD. Would Jesus have attended Herod’s wedding? (I’m sure he was a nice guy deep down)
   2)Will he be present at this wedding because it is another denomination? (technically he won’t as they don’t have the Eucharist)
2. If what your brother is doing is a sin, then by going are you showing acceptance for his sin? (which is a sin in itself)
   3a) If by attending would there be a scandal? (a perceived acceptance of your brothers choice as being an ok thing to do, and also a sin)
   3b) Is going to the reception and not the service ok? Is raising a glass in toast to someone who may be putting themselves in a permanent state of sin something we should do as a follower of Christ?
3. Would you celebrate with someone who has a disdain (or maybe even hatred) for Christ and his Church? (this may not so much be your brother as the pastor and members of this church)

1. The son is not Herod. He is not attempting to marry a woman who is not free to marry him. The sin of the son is apostasy. Even now, his marriage may be illicit, but there is every reason to believe it will be valid and sacramental, as it is not going to be a civil ceremony, but a wedding in a Christian church with valid baptism. In other words, the main problem with this marriage, as far as we know, is that the son has left the Catholic Church and spurns her authority over him. If the bride had been baptised a Catholic, we’d have the same problem.
2. Nobody in our culture will think that Catholic parents and family have lost their faith because they agree to attend their son’s wedding in a different Christian church. There is zero chance they are going to leave the Catholic Church by attendance at this wedding. The chances are, actually, that even though members of the new church may have the mistaken idea that they are going to be the ones doing all the evangelization, the family could well spend the day “witnessing” the falsity of all things about Catholics that some “Bible-believing Christians” have been told (such as ignorance of the Bible).
3. We have no idea if the son’s apostasy is in bad faith–that is, it is in fact a reaction to some other issue the son has with his family or politics with the Church or out of a desire to please a lovely woman he wants to marry without regards to the truth or whatnot–or if the son has made this error through a fault in faith he is unaware of, but would change if he were not blind to it. In that case, the question is whether attendance at the wedding by his family will tend to heal the blindness or calcify it. I suspect non-attendance will calcify the son’s blindness towards the truth of the Church, but I don’t know that.
4. The son does not have a hatred for Christ. He has a grave blindness about the truth of Christ’s Church. Although that blindness may well be his own fault, and it is a sin because he knows he is in the wrong, even if he stubbornly doesn’t want to face those facts, he may be unaware at present of the fault that led to his error. The Father of Lies may have conned this young man so that he honestly believes he’s doing the right thing for God. The main thing, though, is not whose fault it is that the son is in the pit, but how to help him out of it. In the meantime, the son is acting on a desire to please God and follow Jesus as his Lord and Savior. He may be blind, but he’s at least it appears that he trying to find the right road. That counts for something. Although his treatment of his parents doesn’t speak well for the young fellow, Old Scratch cannot feel secure about having won this young man away from Heaven.

The family, then, will need, with prayer and pastoral guidance, identify as best as they can what God is trying to accomplish here, and do that, while looking at what Old Scratch is trying to accomplish in their family member and in their family, and doing the opposite of that. That is the main thing.

 

[that_name]

EasterJoy - please post the documents that an invalid marriage can be valid and sacramental. Show us where the law states a Catholic can marry without dispensation and that marriage be valid. I’ll put a dollar in the poor box if you can back up these claims.

 

[Alindawyl]

EasterJoy - please post the documents that an invalid marriage can be valid and sacramental. Show us where the law states a Catholic can marry without dispensation and that marriage be valid. I’ll put a dollar in the poor box if you can back up these claims.

That was actually the case under the original 1983 Code of Canon Law, provided a Catholic formally defected from the Church. A formal defection used to remove the obligation to follow canon law with regard to marriages. Such a person did not need to apply for a dispensation to disregard proper form or marry a non-baptized person, and did not need to receive permission to marry a non-Catholic Christian.

But a new Motu Proprio released last year changed that part of canon law. Now even those who formally defect will still be obligated to follow the canons on marriage.

 

[that_name]

That was actually the case under the original 1983 Code of Canon Law, provided a Catholic formally defected from the Church. A formal defection used to remove the obligation to follow canon law with regard to marriages. Such a person did not need to apply for a dispensation to disregard proper form or marry a non-baptized person, and did not need to receive permission to marry a non-Catholic Christian.

But a new Motu Proprio released last year changed that part of canon law. Now even those who formally defect will still be obligated to follow the canons on marriage.

Exactly.

The Easter poster has stated that a baptized Catholic who did not go through the formal defection process when it was permitted can marry outside of form sans dispensation and somehow have a valid marriage, they have actually stated that an illicit marriage can be valid. I’m waiting on proof.