Not By Faith Alone

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As I expected, however, I did not get an explanation for 1 John 5:4 and its helpers.

I forgive you for all of your ridicule and slander and pray that you might see the truth one day. You are just like I was…claim some scriptures and gloss over the rest.

May God Show You.
I pray that all here will forgive Craig in all his arrogance and determination to lead us out of our supposed error. We could make the same accusation of you, but you won’t admit it - claim some scriptures and gloss over the rest, particularly those that speak of the thinsg we need to do in order to be granted salvation. There’s no need repeating them ad nauseum as you have with your favorites, because it will get us nowhere.

Craig, time and time again, we have given explanation to your cherry-picked verses, but as you accuse us, you don’t like our explanations.

As for the verse upon which your entire theology seems to hang (and how peculiar that your theology hangs on words not even spoken by Jesus):

1 John 5:4 (NKJV) - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Craig, have you overcome the world? Are you sinless, and are you in the most perfect state you’ll ever be? If you haven’t, then what does it mean to overcome? Thus far, your rendering of your penultimate scripture verse doesn’t impress, nor does it convince, particularly in the face of those you choose to ignore or force-fit into your theology of “once-saved-always-saved,” like John 15 and Revelation 3. You also ignore verses in which it it said that people will be judged for their actions, like Revelation 20.

Matthew 5:48 (NKVJ) - Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Are you perfect? What does it mean to overcome in 1 John 5:4 if it does not mean being perfected?

Revelation 21:27 (NIV) - Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

If you were to die today, would you be confident that you have not done anything shameful or deceitful (such as giving a false impression of yourself in an Internet forum to troll for Catholics so you can witness to them)? Have you given up all attachment to worldliness? Do you sin, even in the smallest way? In Matthew 15:18, Jesus says “But those things which proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile a man.” I hope, after the moment you consider yourself to have been ‘saved,’ that you’ve never uttered a cross word to a loved one, or let something slip that you will later regret, because such things defile you, and in Revelation, it says that such impurities disqualify you from heaven. What does it mean to overcome if you’re still left with impurities that could disqualify you from entering heaven?

Why are we not convinced, Craig? Because your entire premise is based upon a flawed hermeneutic that shoves every verse of scripture related to salvation through the exceptionally narrow filter of 1 John 5:4.

Take a look at other scriptures in which overcoming is mentioned, and you’ll notice something rather interesting - most often, it is in the context of something active being done. You don’t overcome passively, and if you think you do, then you’re ignoring the plain sense of the word.
 
I am sorry for you all and have been praying for you. I will continue to do so. Again, may God Open Your Eyes to the truth. Dan, I know you probably do not want to come, but I would like to invite you to our Church. I am sure that My Pastor could answer all of your questions to your satisfaction. I go to one of the most biblically sound churches that you can find (not Woodside which is a watered-down seeker friendly church). I would also like to suggest to you to look into the works of John MacArthur who is also one of the most biblically sound expositors of the Bible.

Praying for You,

Craig Linkowski

I forgive you also for your false accusations against me.

May we not seek free will but God’s will.
 
I am sorry for you all and have been praying for you. I will continue to do so. Again, may God Open Your Eyes to the truth. Dan, I know you probably do not want to come, but I would like to invite you to our Church. I am sure that My Pastor could answer all of your questions to your satisfaction. I go to one of the most biblically sound churches that you can find (not Woodside which is a watered-down seeker friendly church). I would also like to suggest to you to look into the works of John MacArthur who is also one of the most biblically sound expositors of the Bible.

Praying for You,

Craig Linkowski

I forgive you also for your false accusations against me.

May we not seek free will but God’s will.
Craig, I’ve been there, done that. I don’t need your church. I have come home to the Church that Christ founded.

By the way, is this the best you can do? I gave you answers, and all you can do is invite me to your church to hear yet another pastor’s fallible interpretation of the Bible, ripped from its historical context of the Church that gave it to the world? Another different (and dissonant from all other Protestant pastors) perspective from yet another pastor who only cares about what has happened in the 500 years since the Reformation? Another pastor who (like you) cannot explain why he holds the “once-saved-always-saved” theology that nobody held until after the Reformation, and in conflict with the Biblical record? Another pastor who denies that any man can act infallibly when preaching on faith and morals, but then tells everyone that only his interpretation is correct, thereby claiming infallibility (without admitting it) for himself (irony of ironies, eh)?

As for John MacArthur - all of his lies and misrepresentations have been addressed on these forums, many times over in fact. You ought to take a look and see how he was exposed as an anti-historical, anti-intellectual, anti-Catholic bigot on this thread. His lies almost ruined the marriage of one of the members of these forums.

If you’re interested in getting me to read your materials, why haven’t you entertained any of mine (the ones from John Martignoni’s Bible Christian Society and Michael Voris’ St Michael’s Media)? What do you have to lose if you’re so solidly entrenched in your position?

Furthermore, who are you to judge WBC and its pastor? The folks there, while I believe them to be off-base theologically, are some of the finest examples of Christian service and love I’ve ever met, unlike you, who came here under false pretenses in an attempt to ‘witness’ to us supposedly deluded Catholics. Instead, you ran into folks who know their faith, and some, including myself and Church Militant, who were in churches that taught doctrines very much like yours, and studied our way into the Catholic Church.

No thanks. I’ll stay where I’ve been planted. Been there, done that, never going back.

I’ll be praying for you to be open to what the Catholic Church actually teaches, instead of the lies you’ve heard from John MacArthur and your fundamentalist pastor. And I’ll be praying that the hatred you have of Christ’s Church will fade, regardless of your decision not to convert.

Isn’t it interesting that we consider you and your church to be Christian, and you don’t return the favor to us? Now, which of us really wants more people to get to heaven?
 
I am sorry for you all and have been praying for you. I will continue to do so. Again, may God Open Your Eyes to the truth. Dan, I know you probably do not want to come, but I would like to invite you to our Church. I am sure that My Pastor could answer all of your questions to your satisfaction. I go to one of the most biblically sound churches that you can find (not Woodside which is a watered-down seeker friendly church). I would also like to suggest to you to look into the works of John MacArthur who is also one of the most biblically sound expositors of the Bible.

Praying for You,

Craig Linkowski

I forgive you also for your false accusations against me.

May we not seek free will but God’s will.
:rotfl:
John MacArthur is your source? That is hilarious. BTW, don’t you think “biblically sound expositors of the Bible” is a bit redundant?
 
What is interesting is that I have answered all of your scriptural references with not only other scriptures that contradict your interpretations but also with explanations as to what it means. I have not heard YET what the explanation for 1 John 5:4 other than what I have given as the 100% crystal clear explanation…?
Craig, I thought we were going to get past all this dishonesty. You know full well that I responded to your exegesis of 1 Jn 5:4 with quite a lengthy one of my own. So that either tells me that you are not reading the responses and just continue to spread your propaganda with no intent of dialogue, OR you are intentionally not acknowledging responses so that you can continue to spread your propaganda. Interestingly, we ran into this same issue with myfavoritemartin ealier in this thread just before he conveniently disappeared. If you need to know where I addressed 1 Jn 5:4, see for yourself. Page 7, post 306. In fact, you responded directly to this post, albeit missing the whole point. You stated that Judas was not clean. I agreed. Judas was not clean, because despite his intellectual belief and following of Christ, he did not persevere til the end. Something you don’t seem to get. Of course, you will just say “Judas was never saved to begin with,” but this just begs the question. Thus, the circular argument with you will never end.
1Jo 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world–our faith.

Perseverance of the saints!!
You are correct that this teaches that the “saints” will persevere. What it does not teach is that anybody who has a one time confession of faith is a saint. Nor does it say that the those who have been “born of God” CANNOT fall from this state. The point this verse makes is that anyone who is “born of God,” and perseveres in “our faith” will overcome the world. This is no guarantee that we will persevere. That’s the unacknowledged assumption you are reading into this verse.
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

WE HAVE BECOME partakers with Christ if we persevere. Again, not WILL BECOME. Once you have passed from death to life/are born of God, greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. This could be said, If we keep the faith to the end, that means we were made partakers with Christ. ?
That is just not grammatically correct. Also, this was already addressed earlier. So again, you’re just arguing in circles. If we persevere we will have become partakers of Christ. You are completely backwards on this. Sorry, but I will add this to my pocket of verses that strongly prove that “once saved, always saved” is false.
Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

YOU KNOW WHAT I EXPECT BACK FROM YOU! ONE OF TWO THINGS OR BOTH…
  1. Well, how do you know that you have been born again??(assurance of salvation - not once saved always saved which are two different things)
  2. Come back with other scriptures whereby you give interpretations that contradict these scriptures that I have brought to your attention.
NO ONE - NOT A ONE - has explained these scriptures to me. Thereby, you have reacted with your EYES CLOSED - WITH YOUR EARS SHUT WHILE HUMMING…😃 !!
What a solid, humble Christian attitude you continue to display here! :rolleyes: Again, you are just reading your theology into this text. You are ASSUMING that John means by the word “believe” what you do. You are ASSUMING that this is a “one-time event,” and not something that requires “perseverance.” You are also ASSUMING that this is just an intellectual assent and that belief does not need to be accompanied by action, and thus cannot be a one-time event. This verse says none of these things. You read them into your exegesis, which is actually called eisogesis. The Catholic agrees with this verse completely. This verse states that those who believe in Christ will have eternal life. What the Scripture, and John, define as “Believe” is not outlined here, but elsewhere (most notably in James 2:14-26 which you have flopped on explaining).

Also, ironically, you are now trying to hypocritically and wrongly makes claims against us that we have brought against you without refutation. Nice tactic Craig. 👍
 
Answer me - Isn’t this Catholic Answers?

THEN, YOU HAVE THIS EXPECTATION THAT I AM GOING TO BECOME CATHOLIC.

Whether you want to believe it or not, I came into this forum for 2 reasons…
  1. To bring to you what I know from scripture
  2. To see if you could answer me without contradicting scripture.
You have failed thus far. So, before you go throwing a party amongst yourselves, why don’t you all band together and figure out why you cannot explain 1 John 5:4 and its counterparts.

I look forward to something other than what I have seen so far. Do not come back with other scriptures come back with explanations for this and others.

May God Show You.
Craig, I do believe you came to "show us what you know, " and to see if we could “answer you without contradicting Scripture.” However, what you need to add to that list is that you came with the assumption we could not do it, and have proceeded in this debate as such. Your presuppositions have blinded you to any response. Even if we are right (which we are) you would not be able to see it, because you are more intent on proving us wrong than pursuing truth. That’s fine by me. There are hundreds of people every day with your same agenda on here. I don’t hate you for it. I just wish you’d be honest.

And you know full well that I have addressed your claim that we all just expect you to convert. Nobody expects that. We expect intellectual honesty, and open-mindedness. If you had proceeded as you started, we would be fine. But your attitude changed, and thus the debate has gone downhill from there.
May He show you, and more importantly HUMBLE you.
I think I might list more…

Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Ro 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Joh 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
1Pe 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Php 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Ro 14:4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Heb 7:25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

And the list can go on…once saved, born again, passed from death to life, becoming a child of God…always saved.

We are justified (declared righteous - legal declaration), sanctified (made righteous through the inner working of the Holy Spirit), to be glorified, made dead to the law, forgiven, HAVE eternal life which by definition is forever.

Remember…1 John 5:4 - what does it mean?
You still haven’t figured out that prooftexting will not get you anywhere. It apparently does not occur to you that Catholics have read the Bible, including ALL these verses and that we might believe they support our theology, not your’s.
 
Craig, we have given our answers, and you have given yours. We are making no progress, so this thread really has no further purpose.

I find it interesting that you want us to just knuckle under and drop what we believe because you and your pastor and John MacArthur have said so, but when we present you with evidence that is backed up by 2,000 yers of consistent teaching from the time of the apostles to the present, that’s not enough proof for you. Why are you holding us to a higher standard than the one to which we’re allowed to hold you? You have offered no definitive proof that you and your favorite teachers are infallible, nor have you offered any evidence that your interpretations are more valuable, accurate and edifying than all the dissonant opinions of people just like you, winging it alone with your Bibles and the Holy Spirit, instead of going about it the Biblical way, by accepting the authority of the Church (1 Timothy 3:15).

The Catholic Church has been answering charges like yours for at least 500 years, and you think you, your pastor and John MacArthur are going to bring it crashing to the ground in 2006 by spouting a few Bible verses forced into a pre-conceived notion of salvation? Puh-lease!
 
One can be justified, but not saved. Salvation only comes AFTER the Last Judgment. As long as one lives, one can sin, and one doesn’t experience his last judgment until after he dies. I don’t care what Paul said. Paul said a lot of things that are highly controversial and debatable. AND, Paul wasn’t the last word on everything. Many books of the New Testament were deliberately added to counter Paul, ie, the Book of James.👍
 
One can be justified, but not saved. Salvation only comes AFTER the Last Judgment. As long as one lives, one can sin, and one doesn’t experience his last judgment until after he dies. I don’t care what Paul said. Paul said a lot of things that are highly controversial and debatable. AND, Paul wasn’t the last word on everything. Many books of the New Testament were deliberately added to counter Paul, ie, the Book of James.👍
Nothing was added to counter Paul. James certainly clarifies some of points Paul was making. BUT, Catholics acknowledge that ALL the Scriptures are inspired by God, and therefore infallible, including Paul’s letters.
 
To all how are involved in this thread, love is the most important part of justification.

Love, faith and hope are inside our soul. Therefore justification is inside our soul. God’s grace and love is placed in our soul.

Eph. 6; 14 and I Thess. 5: 8. The breastplate of Justification is made up of love and faith. Now that is biblical.
 
There certainly has been a lot of whining on this thread from both sides. It doesnt really matter who is more justified in whining - it’s still whining!
I am most interested in the 1John 5 verses because brother Linkowski seems to think that 1J 5:4 is perfectly clear in teaching once saved always saved. I am intersested because although I have a bias in my theology, as we all do, I am open to truth. Generally, I find that people overextend verses to mean more than they actually mean (or what can reasonably be drawn from them). Also, more often than not it simply is not clear what exactly was meant by the author and there comes a point in time when you have to admit that. So lets look at 1J in plain English - I never liked the Kings English since I never spoke it.

1." Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child.
2.By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3.For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4.For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.
5.Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

I have to admit - I dont get once saved always saved from any of this. A lot of it is simply confusing. Whoever loves the parent loves the child? for example. And to say that “whatever is born of God” refers to a person is odd. It should say whoever is born of God…but it doesnt, and such ambiguities tend to leave confused. For example the “whatever is born of God” could refer to true faith and not a person at all. True faith conquers the world - is that really such an absurd interpretation? I really dont know…
 
There certainly has been a lot of whining on this thread from both sides. It doesnt really matter who is more justified in whining - it’s still whining!
I am most interested in the 1John 5 verses because brother Linkowski seems to think that 1J 5:4 is perfectly clear in teaching once saved always saved. I am intersested because although I have a bias in my theology, as we all do, I am open to truth. Generally, I find that people overextend verses to mean more than they actually mean (or what can reasonably be drawn from them). Also, more often than not it simply is not clear what exactly was meant by the author and there comes a point in time when you have to admit that. So lets look at 1J in plain English - I never liked the Kings English since I never spoke it.

1." Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child.
2.By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.
3.For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.
4.For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.
5.Who is it that overcomes the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

I have to admit - I dont get once saved always saved from any of this. A lot of it is simply confusing. Whoever loves the parent loves the child? for example. And to say that “whatever is born of God” refers to a person is odd. It should say whoever is born of God…but it doesnt, and such ambiguities tend to leave confused. For example the “whatever is born of God” could refer to true faith and not a person at all. True faith conquers the world - is that really such an absurd interpretation? I really dont know…
That’s an interesting point, Philthy. It is one I did not consider it, but it does make sense. My original thought was that this was merely hyperbolic language. However, I actually think what you said makes a lot of sense. I will consider it and pray about it. I think we should also look at multiple translations to see if we can decipher this further. Anyway, good job.
 
People! People! People!
Please remember that Paul was writing to Jewish Christians during a time when the big question was whether Christianity should be open to non-Jews.
Context! Context! Context!
Whenever Paul speaks of “the Law” he is almost always referring to the Law of Moses. He is telling Jewish Christians that they are no longer saved by observing the Law of Moses (ex. circumcision, dietary laws, ect.).
Instead, they are to observe the “Law of Christ.”
And yes, Paul does mention the LAW of Christ in his letters.
Context! Context! Context!
How annoying! (sorry for any offense;) )

“Why do you call me “Lord, Lord”, and do not do what I tell you? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, hears my words, and acts on them. That one is like a man building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when a flood arose, the river burst against that house but could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the one who hears and does not act is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, immediately it fell, and great was the ruin of that house.” (Luke 6)
 
We are saved by faith alone but not by faith that is alone. The body without the spririt is dead…so faith without works is dead. We are not saved by faith and works…but by faith that works…

Galatians 5:6 KJV 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

We are saved through faith THAT works…not faith AND works. But, in order to have faith THAT works, you need to get rid of your AND so that you can get the THAT.

You must empty yourself of all want of mertiing heaven and put your faith in Christ alone for salvation. Holiness is not the way to Christ, Christ is the way to holiness.

May God Show You,

Craig L.

I am amazed how “catch phrases” when repeated enough seem to become dogma in the Protestant mind. Much like Faith Alone-Scripture Alone. Although Scripture has never taught either one. Just observing.🙂
 
Excellent TriLogic…

True love that even loves its enemies cannot come about without the transformation that takes place at the new birth…by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
Amen to that! In order to do the works pleasing to God you have to be regenerated first. The works that we believe are meritorius are those that are the fruits of true love and true love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. You can only have the Holy Spirit if you have been regenerated and it is absolutely free of charge. You cannot merit the Holy Spirit.

Now I would like to touch on the notion of the perseverance of the saints. The Catholic Church teaches predestination, though not the Calvnist version. We believe that God has ordained some to eternal glory and these will infallibly receive the gift of final perseverance (i.e. dying in a state of grace). Where Catholicism parts from the “once saved always saved” crowd is that we do not believe that all those who have been genuinely regenerated or have been genuinely justified will persevere to the end. We believe that there are those who have been ordained by God to receive sanctifying grace (i.e. receiving the initial stage of salvation) but not receive eternal glory. This is shown by passages like John 15, Hebrews 6 &10, Matthew 18, etc.

Those who have been ordained by God to eternal glory (final salvation) will infallibly reach that goal. However, no one has absolute assurance that they are ordained to eternal glory. The only evidence that can indicate if we are ordained by God to glory is the way we live our lives (i.e. perseverance in holiness).

Works continue to play a role because God has promised to reward (i.e. merit) those who persevere in doing good with entrance into eternal life (Romans 2:6-7).

God Bless,
Michael
 
(resurrecting my own thread, my darling)

"do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:20-24)

Faith is “made complete” by what he did.
Apart from deeds, faith is incomplete.

Is an incomplete faith able to save?

Is hydrogen, apart from oxygen, able to satisfy thirst?
 
I REALLY LIKE YOUR IDEA!

Faith is made perfect/complete by love that keeps the commandments. This love is done with God’s grace.

The mystery of love and grace and faith and hope.
 
**sounds to me you are more assured that Paul

Paul tells people like you in (1Cor 10:11-12)
“Therefore whoever thinks he is standing secure take care not to fall.”

ARE YOU THROWING OUT THOSE SCRIPTURES?**

Nobody’s throwing out those Scriptures but you can’t forget verse 13 which completes the thought. The context of that passage is temptation and sin. A Christian must take heed and not think he can’t fall because if he does, then he will fall. The passage is talking about temptation and sin; it really has nothing to do with salvation or assurance.

However, the whole book of 1John was written so that we may KNOW that we have eternal life. This seems like the epitome of assurance to me.

Also, I just read this Scripture on line today but I forget the reference. If you have a concordance you’ll find it. It talks about the Spirit bearing witness with us and assuring us that we ARE children of God. Not that we may be after dying and perhaps a trip through purgatory. It is saying that we ARE children of God. The Holy Spirit does not lie.

Peace.
 
Also, I just read this Scripture on line today but I forget the reference. If you have a concordance you’ll find it. It talks about the Spirit bearing witness with us and assuring us that we ARE children of God. Not that we may be after dying and perhaps a trip through purgatory. It is saying that we ARE children of God. The Holy Spirit does not lie. Peace.
Nor does Paul who led by the Holy Spirit wrote:

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.” (Philippians 2:12-13)

Salvation is a process - not an event.

Peace.
 
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