Not Convinced.....

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner wrote: "Again, are you saying there is something in your oral tradition that is necessary for our salvation that is not contained in scripture? If so what would that be? "

My Response: I’m assuming that you are expecting a simple pat answer. However, there is a lot involved in your question, and probably a lot of assumption in your interpretation of theological terms here.

It really is a very simple question

For one thing, whether you realize it or not it’s not all just “our oral tradition”, but yours as well. The term “Trinity” for instance is found nowhere in the Bible, nor is the teaching explicitly found anywhere in the Bible, that the Trinity is basically three distinct persons (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in one essence (God). It comes from oral tradition. However, it is a tradition that your Baptist brethren fully accept without question.

The question is concerning the CC’s oral tradition. Not my church’s or any other church’s

The other assumption is your concept of “salvation”. I’m sure you probably define salvation as a one time sinner’s prayer. But the Biblical, as well as Catholic view, is that it is a process that BEGINS with conversion (the sacrament of baptism and confirmation), continues with the sanctification process, and ends with glorification (we HAVE been saved when we established a relationship with God, we ARE being saved as we “…work out [our] own salvation with fear and trembling”, and we WILL be saved when we are taken up on the last day in glorified bodies and He comes again in glory to judge the living and the dead).

The “sancification” part of salvation; growing in Christ; growing in holiness, requires God’s graces. And there are many factors to consider in this aspect of salvation. The Church teaches that the Sacraments are the ordinary means by which God conveys these sanctifying graces (particularly Baptism, Confirmation, Rite of Reconciliation (Confession), Eucharist; but also Holy Orders, Holy Matrimony, and the Anointing of the Sick (or “Last Rites”).

However, although the Sacraments are the ORDINARY means by which God’s sanctifying graces can be given to the believer, they are by no means the ONLY way. This is what makes exception for non-Catholic Christians, who by invincible ignorance, are exempted from receiving the sacraments. Baptism and Holy Matrimony are both valid outside of the Catholic Church. In other words, the Church acknowledges that God’s graces extend out past His preferred will. You cannot put God in a box.

Hope that helps answer your question.

Well, actually it doesn’t answer it at all. While you use this opportunity to preach on Catholic doctrine, namely the “Trinity”, salvation, and the sacraments, you never get around to actually answering the question. I can see why this seems to be such a hard question for Catholics to answer. If you say no, there is nothing in your oral tradition that is necessary for our salvation that is not contained in scripture, you must recognize the validity of sola scriptura. If you say yes there is you will be required to produce that doctrine, and you and I both know that there is no such doctrine. All the information that we need for our salvation is contained within the pages of the bible. If you say it isn’t. You need to produce that doctrine and share it with the world.

BTW your assessment of my idea of salvation as " I’m sure you probably define salvation as a one time sinner’s prayer."
is completely off the mark. Justification occurs at the moment that we acknowledge that we are sinners and accept the grace (gift) of God in the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and we take Him as our Lord and Savior.Jn.3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Sanctification is the lifelong process of growing in the knowledge of Jesus through the study of the Word. Jn.17: 17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Glorification is the inevitable outcome of faithfully carrying out the first two.

 

[benidict]

I’m sorry - I was just answering the question - my apologies - I also did time in Iraq. Just North of … but anyway keep safe - God bless. And yes as the above poster said I could have worded differently but I was addressing the actual question asked the poster - here is what the Church says is the purpose for the Catechism:

Fidei Depositum on the Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[benidict]

a poster asked what in our oral tradition is neccessary for salvation? ok ill repeat what was said earlier, since apparently he missed it. the Trinity for one. this is not found in scripture, and there are those who believe sola scriptura who deny its even there. and they would have a case. 2 the Christian views on pro life. the bible says nothing against abortion. in fact it gives the formula in the law, for a priest to make a “bitter drink” that induces abortion in a woman who has commited adultery. i can give you chapter and verse if you would like. the anti abortion views of the Church were passed down by the apostles, but not written down. they can be found in the earliest of the Church fathers writings. im sure i can think of others. this is a start though. unless of course, there are any of us, that believe we can be pro choice and yet have a part in the world to come? dont answer that, it would be a topic for another thread though. Peace

 

[benidict]

Why dont you read it and find out what it actually says instead of guessing

hi ignatius. im pretty sure he has… Peace

 

[TracyR]

Well I’ll throw in my two cents. Being a Protestant myself pretty much all of my life. I hate to admit that salvation through the Protestant’s eye is a one time sinner’s prayer. There are many who do not understand that with that salvation good works must follow. That is because Protestants do not believe in faith and good works. They depend on faith alone. There may be a small few who get it but its always the same people doing the good works. The vast majority don’t get that at all. Sorry to say but it is very, very true.

To me its like a free pass. You pray a prayer, ask God into your heart and that’s it. To assume that people are just going to go on and do good works to follow is nieve in the least because it is human nature to try and do the least amount possible, when possible. No one ever says after the ‘sinners’s prayer’ that " Okay now you have to lead a life like Christ did. That now that you’ve accepted Christ into your heart , your good works should follow.
I’ve belonged to many different types of Protestant faiths and never once did I see or hear that. What I have seen is people plop their bums in a pew and claim they are Christian because they said a prayer. There is nothing in the Bible that says " Say a small prayer accepting God into your heart and you’ll get to Heaven without having to put forth any effort, and here’s what you say, and how to do it." So for Protestants to say that everything they do is according to the Scriptures is also false too. That is Protestant tradition.
You go ahead and find the passage that says salvation is through a sinner’s prayer, and here’s how you say it. When you do please post it.

What Protestants tend to forget is that one should be born again every single day ,and through their good works, not just once through a prayer. Catholics know this because this is what they are taught. Protestants are left to assume that once you are born again then they have to figure out that good works follow because, well, because its always left to be optional.

 

[1234bun567]

Couldn’t that argument be turned around like so:

I personally believe that if the Bible was alone sufficient, then God would somewhere explicitly state it in scripture (and state what books belong in the bible)?

Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”

1 Cor. 4:6 “that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.”

“The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalms 119: 160).

 

[simeonhuff]

Jesus is God. You make it sound as if God is separate from Jesus. It’s the Trinity. Father, Son and Holy Spirt. One God in three persons.

When Jesus died on the Cross, God died for our sins. You cannot separate them.

It’s hard to wrap your mind around, I know. But do you understand that?

Yes, Jesus is God, but they are still seperate. Jesus is not God the Father, but Jesus IS God as a whole. In other words, God is not seperate from Jesus. But God the Father IS seperate from God the Son (Jesus).

 

[simeonhuff]

Well I’ll throw in my two cents. Being a Protestant myself pretty much all of my life. I hate to admit that salvation through the Protestant’s eye is a one time sinner’s prayer. There are many who do not understand that with that salvation good works must follow. That is because Protestants do not believe in faith and good works. They depend on faith alone. There may be a small few who get it but its always the same people doing the good works. The vast majority don’t get that at all. Sorry to say but it is very, very true.

To me its like a free pass. You pray a prayer, ask God into your heart and that’s it. To assume that people are just going to go on and do good works to follow is nieve in the least because it is human nature to try and do the least amount possible, when possible. No one ever says after the ‘sinners’s prayer’ that " Okay now you have to lead a life like Christ did. That now that you’ve accepted Christ into your heart , your good works should follow.
I’ve belonged to many different types of Protestant faiths and never once did I see or hear that. What I have seen is people plop their bums in a pew and claim they are Christian because they said a prayer. There is nothing in the Bible that says " Say a small prayer accepting God into your heart and you’ll get to Heaven without having to put forth any effort, and here’s what you say, and how to do it." So for Protestants to say that everything they do is according to the Scriptures is also false too. That is Protestant tradition.
You go ahead and find the passage that says salvation is through a sinner’s prayer, and here’s how you say it. When you do please post it.

What Protestants tend to forget is that one should be born again every single day ,and through their good works, not just once through a prayer. Catholics know this because this is what they are taught. Protestants are left to assume that once you are born again then they have to figure out that good works follow because, well, because its always left to be optional.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16”
You don’t get saved by praying a prayer. You get saved by accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Good works should follow, yes, but good works do NOT get you saved, contrary to a popular belief of Catholics. A good way of explaining this is: You can DO (good works) without BEING (saved), but you can’t BE without DOING. When I say that you cant be without doing, I don’t mean that you have to do good works to be saved. I am saying that if you are TRULY saved, then you will WANT to be like Christ and do good works. Does that make sense?

 

[benidict]

actually my friend. i think james makes more sense when he tells us, that faith without works is dead. show me your faith without deeds, and i will show you my faith with my deeds. the two walk hand in hand. true faith is always followed by an action. i believe this chair will hold me, so i will sit in it. i can cite other scriptural examples if you would like. but needless to say, works are a requirment to be saved. ah, but what works? simple. feed the hungry, clothe the naked. visit the sick, etc. etc. etc. if you do not have works such as these, Christ will truly say away you accursed. into the everlasting fire, that has been prepared for the devil and his angels. there are many passages by paul, peter, john, that tie faith in with works. just as Catholocism professes. Peace

 

[regression]

Deuteronomy 12:32 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”

1 Cor. 4:6 “that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.”

“The entirety of Your word is truth” (Psalms 119: 160).

I don’t see where any of those verses say the bible is sufficient. Didn’t Paul tell the Thessalonians to hold on to the traditions Paul passed to them? Not just what Paul wrote down?

Also, what is missing in the quotes is what books belong in the bible. If the bible is alone sufficient, I would want to make sure my bible contains the correct books, no less, no more.

 

[pablope]

actually my friend. i think james makes more sense when he tells us, that faith without works is dead. show me your faith without deeds, and i will show you my faith with my deeds. the two walk hand in hand. true faith is always followed by an action. i believe this chair will hold me, so i will sit in it. i can cite other scriptural examples if you would like. but needless to say, works are a requirment to be saved. ah, but what works? simple. feed the hungry, clothe the naked. visit the sick, etc. etc. etc. if you do not have works such as these, Christ will truly say away you accursed. into the everlasting fire, that has been prepared for the devil and his angels. there are many passages by paul, peter, john, that tie faith in with works. just as Catholocism professes. Peace

In addition, from the epistle of James:

James 1:26-27 (King James Version)

26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.

27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Faith and works together…

 

[panner]

And Richard,what Bible did Abraham use,since you believe God’s Word is binded only to the Written Word. Richard,Christianity is NOT a book-only faith,but about the person: Jesus Christ. Have you forgotten that simple fact?

I think Protestantism is an book only faith, from being in it to battling them now I get that sense that they can not separate that. They like the Muslims are people of the book

 

[Nicea325]

I think Protestantism is an book only faith, from being in it to battling them now I get that sense that they can not separate that. They like the Muslims are people of the book

I think you are correct. However,is not like Islam or Judaism,because it is about a person:Jesus Christ.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I don’t see where any of those verses say the bible is sufficient. Didn’t Paul tell the Thessalonians to hold on to the traditions Paul passed to them? Not just what Paul wrote down?

Are you saying that the bible is not sufficient to show us what we need for salvation? Do you think when Paul tells us to “hold on to the traditions” that those traditions contained some information not contained in the written epistles, that we absolutely need for our salvation, and if you do, what would that information be?

Also, what is missing in the quotes is what books belong in the bible. If the bible is alone sufficient, I would want to make sure my bible contains the correct books, no less, no more.

But you do have a bible don’t you. And are you content that it contains all the required books and non extra?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Here is the link:
ignatius.com/Products/CategoryCenter.aspx?SearchTerm=catechism+of+the+catholic+church

If I recall, you have asked of this several times, but you have not gone to buy one. If you really are serious about reading it, the link has been provided.

The catechism is not a verse by verse commentary is it pablope?

 

[regression]

Are you saying that the bible is not sufficient to show us what we need for salvation? Do you think when Paul tells us to “hold on to the traditions” that those traditions contained some information not contained in the written epistles, that we absolutely need for our salvation, and if you do, what would that information be?

But you do have a bible don’t you. And are you content that it contains all the required books and non extra?

I believe the bible and Sacred Tradition gives us what we need to know about salvation.

Yes, I have a bible and believe it contains the correct books because the Catholic church as said so, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[panner]

I think you are correct. However,is not like Islam or Judaism,because it is about a person:Jesus Christ.

I agree. Sometimes with some Protestants they can not seem to make that distinction.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I believe the bible and Sacred Tradition gives us what we need to know about salvation.

So, you don’t believe the bible alone gives us what we need for salvation, right? And if that is right what is there in your tradition that is needed in addition to what we have in the bible?

Yes, I have a bible and believe it contains the correct books because the Catholic church as said so, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So what was your point here?

Also, what is missing in the quotes is what books belong in the bible. If the bible is alone sufficient, I would want to make sure my bible contains the correct books, no less, no more.

 

[regression]

So, you don’t believe the bible alone gives us what we need for salvation, right? And if that is right what is there in your tradition that is needed in addition to what we have in the bible?

Well, I do not believe salvation is a one time event. So I believe the bible and Sacred Tradition is needed. For example, going to confession and receiving the Eucharist helps me work towards ultimate salvation.

So what was your point here?

You asked me “But you do have a bible don’t you. And are you content that it contains all the required books and non extra?” and I responded “Yes, I have a bible and believe it contains the correct books because the Catholic church as said so, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.”.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by regression
I believe the bible and Sacred Tradition gives us what we need to know about salvation.

So, you don’t believe the bible alone gives us what we need for salvation, right? And if that is right what is there in your tradition that is needed in addition to what we have in the bible?

Where did Jesus- God Himself in the flesh say the Bible alone will give us what we need for salvation? Where does the Bible teach that everything God said and did is binded to the written words only and needed for salvation?

Quote:
Yes, I have a bible and believe it contains the correct books because the Catholic church as said so, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

So what was your point here?

Simple! That history and the facts of life have shown over and over;thus before you were born and long after you have moved on, it was the Catholic Church through the guidance of the HS which gave us the Bible. No amount of denials will make it go away either.