Not correcting Fertility Issues a Sin?

[1ke]

Evan:

NFP uses a contraceptive: Time. But all things can be used either for sin or for virtue. Other contraceptives include Permenant Abstinance (Josephite marriage?), Death, Condoms, Drugs, Medical procedures.

Contraception mean to avoid conception.

Sin is in both why and the way.

No Evan, contraception does not mean to avoid conception, it means an act taken against conception. It means to render a fertile act sterile. Abstinence does nothing to render a fertile act sterile.

 

[miguel]

**No one has said NFP is contraceptive. It is not. **But, it can be use in with contraceptive mentality. I refer you to the Catechism which states:

*A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. **It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood. ***Moreover, they should conform their behavior to the objective criteria of morality

So, therefore to use NFP for what the Catechism calls “motivated by selfishness” is to use NFP with a contraceptive intent. This passage also makes it clear that no, the Church does not allow Catholics to “decide for themselves”, they must decide AFTER properly forming their conscience in conformity to the “objective criteria of morality”.

The Church is not real specific about what it means by “just reasons” and what would constitute “selfishness” in this regard. I think that’s intentional. And I also think it implies a certain amount of discretion on the part of each couple, as long as we aren’t violating the objective criteria of morality (i.e., using contraceptives).

 

[1ke]

miguel:

The Church is not real specific about what it means by “just reasons” and what would constitute “selfishness” in this regard. I think that’s intentional. And I also think it implies a certain amount of discretion on the part of each couple, as long as we aren’t violating the objective criteria of morality (i.e., using contraceptives).

I believe that the objective criteria that the CCC is talking about goes beyond contraceptives and extends to what is referred to above it-- generosity, correct understanding of the primary purpose of marriage-- and additionally proper disposition to material goods.

Sorry to post and run-- I will be out of town for the next 8 days w/o internet access.

 

[miguel]

1ke:

I believe that the objective criteria that the CCC is talking about goes beyond contraceptives and extends to what is referred to above it-- generosity, correct understanding of the primary purpose of marriage-- and additionally proper disposition to material goods.

CCC 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom…

 

[1ke]

CCC 2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom…

Yes, but that cannot be taken in isolation apart from the portion that states selfish motivation is NOT in conformity with objective moral criteria. It’s a wholistic picture. Humanae Vitae and Casti Conubii go into great detail, and that is the source for much of the CCC on the subject.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

wabrams:

But if a couple uses NFP because “hey, 3 kids is enough an we don’t want anymore no matter what,” that’s a sin?

Pardon me wabrams,but the way you said that it sounds like a sin,in fact if I were one of the three kids Think about that mentality:nope: Society has potrayed children as burdens so long, people forget they are gifts from God.I have heard parents say that in front of their children when asked if they were going to have more.That attitude lacks love and reduces the marital act into an selfserving act.God Bless

 

[alaskaaggies]

AirForceMama:

I have three little kids, and my husband is in the military. Unlike civilians, we cannot just get a “better job” to better provide for our family. The military pays what they pay, and they don’t care how many kids we have. I’m not saying I don’t desire more kids, I would love to have a whole gang of them, but we made the sacrifice of our finances to serve the country. A year ago we were living pretty poshly and could have easily taken care of many more children. But since joining up, we’ve been hit hard, and had to make the neccessary sacrifices.

I don’t like to think of myself as “Seriously sinning” because I wish to keep my children to 3.

Hey there Mama!
I too am an Air Force Momma. I’ll agree that while mil pay isn’t the greatest, it will get better my friend. Take heart, pay raises come (albeit, maybe not as much as in the civilian world) as do promotions. I have known large families (6+ children) on both the enlisted side as well as the officer side that have done just fine with the one active duty pay check. And there are definite advantages to the USAF lifestyle; one being the military pays for all health care for active duty types as well as us dependants (not too shabby having the birth of your babies paid for in full ). Another perk is Base Housing, while not the greatest in some places, it works out pretty well. At present, we have five kiddos and counting, with about 1200 sq. ft. of living space. (However, most of our quarters have been larger than this…) Also, a lot of bases will now make accomodations for those with more than five children by allowing the large family to occupy an entire duplex/quad. as needed. Family Services is great and there are a lot of programs that you can take advantage of there as well. If you desire to have that “gang” of blessings, don’t fret, it is possible. And if you need any more info. please feel free to email me personally and I’ll be glad to help. I know it’s not easy being at home with the littles while the hubby’s away TDY or deployed, but you can lean on your AF family and most important Christ to get you through.

Blessings and fair skies,
Amy

 

[1ke]

alaskaaggies:

Hey there Mama!
I too am an Air Force Momma. I’ll agree that while mil pay isn’t the greatest, it will get better my friend. Take heart, pay raises come (albeit, maybe not as much as in the civilian world) as do promotions. I have known large families (6+ children) on both the enlisted side as well as the officer side that have done just fine with the one active duty pay check. And there are definite advantages to the USAF lifestyle; one being the military pays for all health care for active duty types as well as us dependants (not too shabby having the birth of your babies paid for in full ). Another perk is Base Housing, while not the greatest in some places, it works out pretty well. At present, we have five kiddos and counting, with about 1200 sq. ft. of living space. (However, most of our quarters have been larger than this…) Also, a lot of bases will now make accomodations for those with more than five children by allowing the large family to occupy an entire duplex/quad. as needed. Family Services is great and there are a lot of programs that you can take advantage of there as well. If you desire to have that “gang” of blessings, don’t fret, it is possible. And if you need any more info. please feel free to email me personally and I’ll be glad to help. I know it’s not easy being at home with the littles while the hubby’s away TDY or deployed, but you can lean on your AF family and most important Christ to get you through.

Blessings and fair skies,
Amy

Howdy Alaska Aggie!

Bless you and your generosity towards life… and Gig 'Em!

 

[DVIN_CKS]

1ke:

No Evan, contraception does not mean to avoid conception, it means an act taken against conception. It means to render a fertile act sterile. Abstinence does nothing to render a fertile act sterile.

Basically this is what I’ve grasped in terminology:

Abstinence = birth control

NFP = birth control

ABC = contraception

The Church allows birth control (as defined above) and does not view it as a sin unless you are using it with a contraceptive mentality. The problems arrise when people try and equate the term “birth control” with “contraception”. This is why you hear people say that there is no big difference between NFP and ABC.

We should be thankful that the modern church supports NFP and other “natural” methods of regulating births. Our ancestors didn’t have it this easy (or so I’ve been lead to believe). Developments in better understanding our reproductive systems has increased enormously in the past 50 years. The way I’ve heard how the church used to teach (unofficially, perhaps) on this matter was pretty much “sex is for procreation – PERIOD”.

I’d like to hear from anyone who grew up during this period of Church history. Was any effort to regulate births condoned by the Church? Was the mentality of the Church in those days that married couples were to do NOTHING to lessen the number of children that they would bring into the world? Did couples rely soley on the rhythm method - which as we all now know isn’t a very reliable method of birth control?

 

[miguel]

1ke:

Yes, but that cannot be taken in isolation apart from the portion that states selfish motivation is NOT in conformity with objective moral criteria. It’s a wholistic picture. Humanae Vitae and Casti Conubii go into great detail, and that is the source for much of the CCC on the subject.

I understand the point you’re making. I just think we’ve got some wiggle room here to balance everything out. The Church isn’t telling us to maximize the number of children we have, without regard to other factors. We have to be open to children as gifts from God certainly. But we have to do that within our own unique framework of physical, psychological, and external limitations. And it is morally acceptable to use NFP to do that.