Not dependent on a church, only on Christ

[FabiusMaximus]

I always read and hear this argument from Protestants who say that Catholics put too much emphasis on the Church and not in their personal relationship with Jesus Christ…

Also, they argue that all the Church’s “traditions” and “legalisms” interfere with Catholics ability to develop a “personal relationship” with Christ…

What do I reply to this? Also, how does one develop a personal relationship with Christ in the Catholic Church?

Thank you for your advice!
Pablo

It’s a cop out, plain and simple. And a rather poor one at that.

Tradition, in some form or another, is how all Christian denominations maintain their theology over a period of time. A Baptist church will be Baptist tomorrow because people will keep to the teachings that the first Baptists in the 17th century taught. It is merely their own tradition.

What do people expect tradition to be? It is the passage down of culture, beliefs, and practice to new generations.

For Evangelicals that criticize Catholicism because of its reverence for tradition, are they going to get ready to renounce Baptism, Holy Communion, and celebration of Easter and Christmas? What about Baby Dedication? That is hardly even found in the Bible, yet it is practiced fairly often in Evangelical circles (and it’s a darned beautiful tradition, I dare say).

I’ve attended in the past one of those churches that emphasizes a “personal relationship” with Christ - it’s essentially trying to get the benefits of Christianity without the discipline. They want all the love, but stand aside with the rebuke. “Christianity is not a religion - it’s a person!” would be the church’s triumphant slogan.

I’ve never looked back since leaving that church. My parents still attend it, though reluctantly. Apparently the pastor, in his drive to have a “modern” church which could “draw the youth,” he allowed the “traditional” worship service preceding the sermon to be replaced by a rock-style service led by his son, with fancy lights.

Now this is of course not the case for all Evangelical churches, - far from it. But to me, this is a natural outcome of the “personal relationship” philosophy.

Nice people, but I felt dead on the inside attending that church.

 

[po18guy]

Frankly, I’ve never heard a truly comprehensive explanation of just how one is supposed to have this “personal relationship.” It always seems to involve little more than a one time thought process, or the work of reciting a prayer that was composed by an apparently unknown man somewhere. Or the work of physically moving toward a replica of an altar, while feeling sorry (but why, since Jesus’ blood already atoned for their sins?). Maybe it’s just me…

 

[adstrinity]

They really only rely on themselves. They think they rely on Christ, but, they are idolators. Watch today’s episode of The Vortex (do you need the link?)

When they say the rely only on Christ, they rely on their own counsel and what they want Christ to be, not what He is. As Catholics, we do not have that option. We MUST obey Christ, WHO, is only with us sacrimentally. He is no longer physically here, except for His Church.

Understand, you have the Truth, they have been duped. Pray for them that they may become Catholic and have a better chance of Heaven.

 

[po18guy]

I’ll let Catholics answer this. Jon

Jon, if I lived closer, I would invite you to adoration with me, where I am headed in a few minutes. It is sublime, and even a sinner such as me has experienced supernatural occurrences before Him. Now, that is a personal relationship!

Peace out, brother!

 

[JonNC]

Jon, if I lived closer, I would invite you to adoration with me, where I am headed in a few minutes. It is sublime, and even a sinner such as me has experienced supernatural occurrences before Him. Now, that is a personal relationship!

Peace out, brother!

I am convinced, my friend, that it is, in a way the same as the adoration Lutherans (and Catholics) offer to Christ in the Eucharist during the sacramental act.

Jon

 

[po18guy]

I am convinced, my friend, that it is, in a way the same as the adoration Lutherans (and Catholics) offer to Christ in the Eucharist during the sacramental act.

Jon

The difference and advantage being that it occurs outside of the mass. That opens a spiritual door. Invite is still valid, if I can come up with a way to pull it off!

 

[Nicea325]

I always read and hear this argument from Protestants who say that Catholics put too much emphasis on the Church and not in their personal relationship with Jesus Christ…

Also, they argue that all the Church’s “traditions” and “legalisms” interfere with Catholics ability to develop a “personal relationship” with Christ…

What do I reply to this? Also, how does one develop a personal relationship with Christ in the Catholic Church?

Thank you for your advice!
Pablo

Easy: We do…it is called Mass: We receive Jesus blood,body,soul and divinity. How much more personal does one need from God?

Easy: When and where did any of the 12 ever say or teach: It is me,myself and I and Jesus in a one-way personal relationship only? Ahhhh…I do believe Jesus said: Love one ANOTHER. His eternal love extends beyond a personal one.

 

[maplebug55]

Dependence on Christ is a given, but we all need the support of our brothers and sisters in Christ as well.

Not to be a downer, but I don’t always feel supported when I attend Mass.

 

[rdscheirer]

Where in the Bible (sola scriptura friends) does it say you have to have personal relationship with Jesus- did he not say where two or three are gathered in my name I will be with them?

 

[Luvtosew]

Maplebug55- I’m sorry to hear that, but its the same here, people in a big hurry to get out, scramble for the door, parking is congested and can take awhile to get out of the lot.
Well people go home and cook, or have to work or are busy nowdays.

 

[Sojourner61]

Where in the Bible (sola scriptura friends) does it say you have to have personal relationship with Jesus- did he not say where two or three are gathered in my name I will be with them?

I haven’t found anywhere in the Gospels where Jesus called us to have a ‘personal relationship’ with Him. He did however, tell us to help the needy, visit the prisoner and the sick, and ‘What you have done for the least of these, you have done for Me’. That is relationship. It is also confirmed by St.James:

KJV: James Chapter 2

[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

At least that is how it looks to me…

 

[rdscheirer]

A friend gave me a little laminated card at our Bible study class.

I use it every Mass as I kneel to ask God to forgive my sins.

"Lord Jesus, I believe that you truly dwell in the midst of your Church.Though I and the people that gather here for Mass are highly imperfect, we are indeed members of Christ’s body, and are joined in each Eucharist to the glorified, perfect members of that body who are in Heaven and the suffering members in Purgatory.
I also believe, O Lord that your holy Priesthood is made present among us through the ministry of the ordained priest who will preside at our celebration. I thank you for his ministry and ask your blessing upon him, that he may effectively bring us your word and worthily dispense to us your body and blood.
I believe O Lord Jesus,that it is you who speaks to us when the Word of God is read in the Liturgy. I open myself up today to your truth-speak a living, personal word to me today through the readings of Mass.
Finally, Lord Jesus, I believe that the bread and wine which will be placed on the altar will truly become your body and blood, given to me for my transformation. I worship you, present in this sacrament, and ask you to heal, forgive, stregthen and sanctify me as I come forward to recieve communion. Unite me more intimately with you and with your body, The Church, through my communion this day"
Amen

 

[JRKH]

Maplebug55- I’m sorry to hear that, but its the same here, people in a big hurry to get out, scramble for the door, parking is congested and can take awhile to get out of the lot.
Well people go home and cook, or have to work or are busy nowdays.

I never understood that. Growing up we never raced from Church. Mom and Dad both knelt and prayed after mass. By the time we left the Church egress from the parking lot was a breeze.

We do the same today. When mass is over, my wife and I will sit and wait for all the racers to get gone before we leave.

Peace
James

 

[JonNC]

The difference and advantage being that it occurs outside of the mass. That opens a spiritual door. Invite is still valid, if I can come up with a way to pull it off!

I would accept the invite.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Where in the Bible (sola scriptura friends) does it say you have to have personal relationship with Jesus- did he not say where two or three are gathered in my name I will be with them?

Where does the Bible say not to?

That said, you make an excellent point here. Since my youth, I’ve always been fond of the music and emotion of the song, “I Come to the Garden Alone”. But the theology is, well, inconsistent with the verse you reference, and others. If we are, by virtue of our baptism, part of the body of Christ, it seems difficult to understand how we then can stand apart from the rest of the body.

Jon

 

[BcuzISaidSo]

The “traditions” and “legalisms” of Catholicism are merely the frameworks. We don’t get to being loyal to the Pope, giving your tithing, helping the poor, etc. We get to heaven by loving God with the very same love he first gives to us. The Church merely points out what is true and false, so that we may love God more abundantly and carry out his will.
The Eucharist, for instance, is a love story. It’s a covenant that supersedes all human imagination. We, who God holds in the palm of his hand, are humbled to accept God as he veils himself in bread and wine, to be held the palms of our priests’, deacons’, servers’, and communicants’ hands. Reconciliation is an external and sincere disposition to amend your life. It is how Christ chooses to absolve us in ordinary circumstances-- through a priest, in person. All things that the Church declares are out of love. Sometimes it’s tough love, but nevertheless it is out of love.

:clapping:

 

[rdscheirer]

Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

Pretty much distills the whole Bible into a "how to do it " book don’t you think?

 

[JRKH]

Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself.

Pretty much distills the whole Bible into a "how to do it " book don’t you think?

I don’t know a bout distilling the whole bible, but considering that Jesus Himself tells us that these two commandments are the basis for all of the law and all of the prophets, (Mt 22:36-40) it certainly sums up the “how to” that you mention…

Peace
James

 

[sallybutler]

I always read and hear this argument from Protestants who say that Catholics put too much emphasis on the Church and not in their personal relationship with Jesus Christ…

Also, they argue that all the Church’s “traditions” and “legalisms” interfere with Catholics ability to develop a “personal relationship” with Christ…

What do I reply to this? Also, how does one develop a personal relationship with Christ in the Catholic Church?

Thank you for your advice!
Pablo

Most of these people also say they can be spiritual without being religious. I would propose that generally these are people who have problems with authority. They don’t want anyone (including God) telling them how to behave.

In my experience, many people dislike churches because churches require them to a higher level of behavior. The Catholic Church is the worst of these because it expects even more from it’s members than other christian churches do.

 

[Syele]

Frankly, I’ve never heard a truly comprehensive explanation of just how one is supposed to have this “personal relationship.” It always seems to involve little more than a one time thought process, or the work of reciting a prayer that was composed by an apparently unknown man somewhere. Or the work of physically moving toward a replica of an altar, while feeling sorry (but why, since Jesus’ blood already atoned for their sins?). Maybe it’s just me…

Pray unceasingly, Love the Lord your God with all your heart , Treat others the way you know God would want you to, Behave each day as if the Jesus was standing right next to you watching (since He is watching anyway!).

They talk about “personal” because while the Church has a big part in things, the “Church” as a whole is not how we are judged. On Judgment day. Each “Person” gets judged.

Originally Posted by pabloSD forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
I always read and hear this argument from Protestants who say that Catholics put too much emphasis on the Church and not in their personal relationship with Jesus Christ…

Also, they argue that all the Church’s “traditions” and “legalisms” interfere with Catholics ability to develop a “personal relationship” with Christ…

What do I reply to this? Also, how does one develop a personal relationship with Christ in the Catholic Church?

First try see where this comes from, I have talked to many Catholics on this forum that are NOT at all like what I’m about to describe, so don’t think I’m generalizing to put people down, but in life I know MANY (in person) Catholics that if I try to talk to them about God they are not interested in spiritual things. They go to Mass (sometimes), they participate in Lent (meaning Ash Wednesday & no fish on Fridays if they feel like it), they do not follow any Catholic teachings they don’t like, they say things like “Well, I was baptized as a baby attend Mass at Christmas.” “My mom was a Catholic, so I’m a Catholic!” “I went to Confirmation when I was 12, I don’t need any more than that.”

Sure they are a “Christian”, but where is the FRUIT of that? Being a Christian is more than a to do list (went to mass (check) got baptized (check) skipped the beef on Friday (check)…). It is no different than the protestants who do similar things and claim its a free pass to heaven. (Said sinners prayer (check), helped a poor person(check), got baptized (check)…). I’m not saying anything on those “To Do” lists are bad, just that there is more to Christianity than that alnoe. God wants our Heart, soul, mind, strength. To lay down our lives for Him. Not to simply complete the “Christianity checklist.” Talking about a “personal relationship with Christ” is a protestants way of nicely saying, “Look, I don’t know where you are with God, but there is more to it than a checklist!” They dont single out Catholics to ask that, It’s not an anti-Catholic rhetoric. I once had a pastor that asked his congregation that regularly just to remind us to live like Jesus taught.

So if they are asking you if your Traditions or legalisms interfere with that, then tell them from your heart how those things HELP you. Tell how they help you to grow spiritually, how they help you be closer to God. If you do it kindly instead of defensively, both sides might learn something from the other. Many protestants don’t have any idea what those Traditions are about.