Not enough evidence sir

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TheCuriousCat said:
That was cathartic, thank-you. I think I needed to be reminded why I left Catholicism in the first place. It just is not the place for me.
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PRmerger said:
Why would you need to be reminded? I don’t understand that comment.
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You know, this thought occurred to me. In my 22 years of being married I’ve never felt the need to be reminded why I left the single life.

If I ever said, “Thanks for the reminder of why I left singlehood” that might be an indicator that I was unhappy in my present state.

Yes?
 
PRmerger said:
Why would you need to be reminded? I don’t understand that comment.
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Do you ever find yourself doing something that makes no sense? Like trying to cram an oven into a Smart Car? You become obsessed with the idea that it should be possible, but it just isn’t. The more you fail, the harder you try. In my case, when that happens, I start to wonder if it is some failure on my part.

I’m not exactly sure why I started posting, but I became obsessed with the idea that I could find common ground with a believer. I’m not sure to what end, but that’s what I was attempting. The more difficult it became, the more it troubled me.

That’s what I mean when I say I needed to be reminded. Your comment was like having someone come along with a tape measure and showing me the oven just wouldn’t fit. It’s not the oven’s fault, it’s not the Smart Car’s fault, and it’s not my fault. So, even though I am sure that was not what you were going for, thank-you. You’ve put my mind at rest.
 
TheCuriousCat said:
Do you ever find yourself doing something that makes no sense? Like trying to cram an oven into a Smart Car? You become obsessed with the idea that it should be possible, but it just isn’t. The more you fail, the harder you try. In my case, when that happens, I start to wonder if it is some failure on my part.

I’m not exactly sure why I started posting, but I became obsessed with the idea that I could find common ground with a believer. I’m not sure to what end, but that’s what I was attempting. The more difficult it became, the more it troubled me.

That’s what I mean when I say I needed to be reminded. Your comment was like having someone come along with a tape measure and showing me the oven just wouldn’t fit. It’s not the oven’s fault, it’s not the Smart Car’s fault, and it’s not my fault. So, even though I am sure that was not what you were going for, thank-you. You’ve put my mind at rest.
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Fair enough. :cool:
 
davidv said:
The explanation was supplied in post #121 by PRmerger, which you countered with your equivocation.
Here is a partial listing of the meanings of faith in the Catholic context.
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And Faith is our Yes to the Divine Marriage Proposal.

When we say Yes to our Beloved, we don’t have 100% certitude that all will be well. But we take a leap in the dark and say yes… Or rather, a leap in The Light.
 
You want to believe, but you want to believe in a god on your own terms.

I think this is rather insensitive. I don’t see him dictating terms, but simply the theme of trying to understand the communication process. Not knowing what is being received or understood, he relates his attempts to do so. There is nothing disrespectful in his tone, in fact this is one more plea in a list of many in the past. This is in my book prayer material.

Folks, why are we so ready to denigrate our own kind? I don’t understand this.

.
 
PRmerger said:
I think following the examples of the saints is a great way to answer your question.

One story I love about how saints speak to God is that of St. Teresa of Avila.

Perhaps you know this story?

Once after falling and injuring her leg, she looked up to Heaven and asked, “Lord, you couldn’t have picked a worse time for this to happen…haven’t I had enough problems?”

She said that the Lord replied, “Don’t you realize that this is how I treat my friends?” St. Teresa of Avila retorted, “If this is how you treat your friends, it’s no wonder you don’t have very many.”
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Goes both ways. The answer could be used if the devil was trying to turn her off to God.
 
PRmerger said:
Then that would be creating a god in your own image, rather than conforming yourself to what’s True.

Most atheists are concerned with believing what’s True, not what appeals to them.
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Maybe I’m not good in explaining what I think, or maybe you are not understanding me well.

I’m saying that If I figured out and experienced an undeniable proof or if I was in front of any of the Catholic, Muslim or Jew God, I would acknowledge this god as a truth, therefore I would no longer be an atheist ( a disbeliever ), but I would still make a choice of rejecting those Gods, because I consider them to have the best characters.
Their personalities that is very much similar to humans, is one of the reasons that make me think, that on our own images, we made them.
 
djames99 said:
Goes both ways. The answer could be used if the devil was trying to turn her off to God.
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I wasn’t making a theological expository on who speaks to saints.

I was simply giving an example of how you could speak to God, since you were positing questions as to how it could be done. 🤷
 
User124 said:
I’m saying that If I figured out and experienced an undeniable proof or if I was in front of any of the Catholic, Muslim or Jew God, I would acknowledge this god as a truth, therefore I would no longer be an atheist ( a disbeliever ), but I would still make a choice of rejecting those Gods, because I consider them to have the best characters.
Their personalities that is very much similar to humans, is one of the reasons that make me think, that on our own images, we made them.
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Ah, I see what you’re saying.

Well, then you would be rejecting a caricature of a god, and not acknowledging this God as He Really Is.

It’s like if you met Mother Teresa and she ignored you because she was tending to an AIDS victim and then you said, “Well, I acknowledge that she exists, but I reject her as being a nice person. She ignored me!”

You would be rejecting the wrong person. You didn’t really “meet” her.

Edit: Please note–the metaphor is not to be taken detail for detail. Firstly, I am not comparing Mother Teresa to God here. Secondly, I am not saying that God ignores you.

Point of the example is this: you can meet someone and reject him but be rejecting a false image of him.
 
PRmerger said:
Ah, I see what you’re saying.

Well, then you would be rejecting a caricature of a god, and not acknowledging this God as He Really Is.

It’s like if you met Mother Teresa and she ignored you because she was tending to an AIDS victim and then you said, “Well, I acknowledge that she exists, but I reject her as being a nice person. She ignored me!”

You would be rejecting the wrong person. You didn’t really “meet” her.

Edit: Please note–the metaphor is not to be taken detail for detail. Firstly, I am not comparing Mother Teresa to God here. Secondly, I am not saying that God ignores you.

Point of the example is this: you can meet someone and reject him but be rejecting a false image of him.
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Then I would reject the wrongly God presented by Holy books, I would be rejecting “The Holy books’ God” and not the real god * If he was good*, why would anyone reject a Good God?
That’s why I mentioned those three characters of Gods I would reject, in: Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

But that’s one of the reasons of “my” disbelief, not all, and nor even a main reason!
 
User124 said:
Then I would reject the wrongly God presented by Holy books, I would be rejecting “The Holy books’ God” and not the real god * If he was good*, why would anyone reject a Good God?
That’s why I mentioned those three characters of Gods I would reject, in: Islam, Christianity and Judaism.

But that’s one of the reasons of “my” disbelief, not all, and nor even a main reason!
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You reject God because he doesn’t fit into the picture of what you believe God should be.

God should be, in your estimation:

[fill in the blank with your list of characteristics]

The Christian God doesn’t fit in with your list so therefore he doesn’t exist.

That reasoning is very solipsistic. And ego-centric.

As St. Augustine said,* “Si comprehendis, non est Deus”;* that is, if you understand him, he is not God
 
cranster said:
I’ve been pondering Bertrand Russells response to the question he was asked… “What if you’re wrong and God does exist. What are you going to say to Him?” To which Russell replied… “You didn’t provide enough evidence sir!”. I’ve been pondering several hypothetical follow up questions to that response which God… (Provided of course that He does exist, and is Jesus which we Catholics believe) could potentially ask.

The first hypothetical follow up question is: Who told you that empirical evidence was the only way I could be found?
To which you say?

The second hypothetical question is: You had as much evidence as people who found the evidence sufficient to seek me, love me, and serve me… Why did you choose to reject me when others found the available evidence sufficient for belief?
To which you say?
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" You ask for signs ( proofs), I will give you only the sign of Jona."
" They are like children ( i.e. the men of this generation ) sitting in the market place, and speaking to one to another, and saying: We have piped to you, and you have not danced: we have mourned and you have not wept." ( nothing will satisfy them because they are like children who are pleased only in what interests them for the moment)

A great little book you could ask them to read ( but of course they won’t) is " The Last Superstition" by Edward Feser ( just skip pg 146 which may be suitable only for Doctors and Nurses).
 
PRmerger said:
You reject God because he doesn’t fit into the picture of what you believe God should be.

God should be, in your estimation:

[fill in the blank with your list of characteristics]

The Christian God doesn’t fit in with your list so therefore he doesn’t exist.

That reasoning is very solipsistic. And ego-centric.

As St. Augustine said,* “Si comprehendis, non est Deus”;* that is, if you understand him, he is not God
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Please don’t assume things I never said, I was talking about after death, AFTER knowing that the Christian god EXISTS, I would reject him for his characters as it’s mentioned in Holy books.

However RIGHT NOW, I don’t disbelieve in Gods or religions, only because of the reason of God’s characters in books, this could be ONE of the many REASONS, and NOT a main one.

Talking about ego, you like the Character of the Catholic God, if it turns out after death that The Islamic god exists, would you accept or reject him?
If you reject him, would that be considered as “ego”?
 
cranster said:
The first hypothetical follow up question is: Who told you that empirical evidence was the only way I could be found?
To which you say?
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Richard Dawkins. 😃
cranster said:
The second hypothetical question is: You had as much evidence as people who found the evidence sufficient to seek me, love me, and serve me… Why did you choose to reject me when others found the available evidence sufficient for belief?
To which you say?
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Richard Dawkins told me to reject that evidence. 😃
 
cranster said:
I’ve been pondering Bertrand Russells response to the question he was asked… “What if you’re wrong and God does exist. What are you going to say to Him?” To which Russell replied… “You didn’t provide enough evidence sir!”. I’ve been pondering several hypothetical follow up questions to that response which God… (Provided of course that He does exist, and is Jesus which we Catholics believe) could potentially ask.

The first hypothetical follow up question is: Who told you that empirical evidence was the only way I could be found?
To which you say?
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God,
Since there are so many contradictory religions and hoaxes and stuff out there, the only way to trust the evidence is if it is empirical. Expecting people to have faith in mysterious invisible You is actually just expecting people to be guillable or mistake wishful thinking for fact. I will generously exclude people who knew Jesus personally from this assertion. That is me being generous though, not frank.
The second hypothetical question is: You had as much evidence as people who found the evidence sufficient to seek me, love me, and serve me… Why did you choose to reject me when others found the available evidence sufficient for belief?
To which you say?
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God,
It was not a choice. I never, not for one second of my entire life believed in You. It’s not like I stopped believing in You - I never did to begin with. What I am trying to say is I reject the “evidence” :rolleyes: and “reasons” :rolleyes: Your believers put forth; I did not sense Your presence or anything that could remotely be considered supernatural or spiritual. There was nothing to reject, in a sense. You were a word that other people used, but I did not get. You were nothing to me. Just an amusing conversation topic.
 
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