Not Exactly A Clown Mass, But A Clown Act For Sure

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Isn’t there a biblical directive that we should dance in front of the Lord?

It’s been tried recently. It looks silly. It’s distracting; it focuses attention on the dancer, rather than the Host. And, it was dropped a very long time ago, before the coming of Christ, I’ve read.

And who would choreograph it? Will it be jazz dance, a liturgical waltz, or ‘everybody shimmy now’? Heh, heh, I don’t think there are any rubrics for it.

I think that many here are over-reacting to change.

What we’d like is the old Mass, on equal availability with the constantly-modified OF. Change can be good or evil. It’s not automatically good in itself.

In fact, some are downright hostile.

Yep.

*I don’t like change either but we have to accept it as a part of life.
*
No, we don’t. We can certainly fight it, if it’s not in our interests.

Would any of the naysayers consider changing their faith as a result of these Masses?

No, but I would change the church, parish and rite I attend.
 
maurin said:
Tracy,

You may be missing the point that there are hundreds of thousands whose faith is being formed with faults as a result of these types of Masses.

Change is only a part of mundane things, this I concede. Christ, however, His Church and the Faith is not mundane: Christ yesterday, today and forever. Building upon and developing the Faith–Its Doctrines and Dogmas (Faith and Morals)-- is a totally different animal than is ‘change’ in disciplines.

Using a super soaker at Mass, ignoring the Agnus Dei in order to hug the parishioner 3 pews away, singing secular songs have no other place than an auditorium, not the Sanctuary of Our Lord. These are the types of real life examples which prove that we have uncrowned Him.
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I don’t have a problem with hugging a parishner 3 pews away, but the Mass went entirely too fast in general for me.
The part where we pray for the living and the dead? I can barely get the names out and we’re onto a new part!
About secular songs, it depends on the song, in my opinion. Some folks objected to a song about "i sing because I’m happy…I sing because I’m free’ (can’t remember the title)
at a Mass I attended because it wasn’t Catholic, and yet the song ministered to me.
Super soakers at Mass are juvenile, in my opinion.
To your point about faith with flaws…isn’t Faith a comfort and a good thing regardless of how a person gets there?
 
TracyJ said:
I don’t have a problem with hugging a parishner 3 pews away, but the Mass went entirely too fast in general for me.
The part where we pray for the living and the dead? I can barely get the names out and we’re onto a new part!
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Do you think that there is a problem when the Mass is interrupted, and the Agnus Dei ignored in orer that you may hug that parishioner 3 pews away? It is as if you are suggesting an intermission in order for the people to love each other, rather than the Lord, who has just been made Really Present at the Altar. Where ought the focus be?
About secular songs, it depends on the song, in my opinion. Some folks objected to a song about "i sing because I’m happy…I sing because I’m free’ (can’t remember the title)
at a Mass I attended because it wasn’t Catholic, and yet the song ministered to me.
Super soakers at Mass are juvenile, in my opinion.
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were you at a concert focussing on entertainment and focussing on the people, or were you at a Mass focussing on the Worship of Our Lord?
To your point about faith with flaws…isn’t Faith a comfort and a good thing regardless of how a person gets there?
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Christ used the analogy that the sick are in need of a doctor. Your last question calls to mind a doctor who refused to treat a sick person because only one part of the person was sick. The rest of the body is healthy, so why don’t we just concentrate on that one part. Ignore the sickness, it will go away by virtue of the parts of the body that are in good health.

No doctor would do that, because the risk of the illness spreading to other parts of the body is too great, eventually, but not necessarily, leading to death. At the very least, causing permanent damage to certain body parts.

Isn’t this, in reality, what has been happening to the Faith?
 
TracyJ said:
About secular songs, it depends on the song, in my opinion. Some folks objected to a song about "i sing because I’m happy…I sing because I’m free’ (can’t remember the title)?
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“His Eye is on the Sparrow”
 
hamburglar said:
Beautiful vestments too;)

What was the Mahony heresy ?
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He said the TLM does not instill the spirit of Christ in those who attend. See post 15 for a direct quote in bkovaks LA religious congress thread.

When a Cardinal spews such venom toward the most precious treasure of the Roman Catholic Church, it would lead one to question his orthodoxy.

His comment didn’t suprise me.
 
Quarles47 said:
Is that Ignoramus using a super soaker to sprinkle the crowd with Holy Water:bigyikes:
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Apparently so. But, since there are no rubrics for doing so in the OF Mass, it seems foolish to waste so much bandwidth blaming the OF for this - and it is certainly not the fault of the English language, either. (In fact, it seems to be the result of a failure in communication, rather than too much communication, that is at the root of this problem.)

They say that the OF is the greatest thing ever to happen to the TLM - the Latin speaking priests learned how to say their Mass in a reverent manner, and the people who attend it are much more careful nowadays to educate themselves in their faith. This is a good thing. 🙂
 
maurin said:
Do you think that there is a problem when the Mass is interrupted, and the Agnus Dei ignored in orer that you may hug that parishioner 3 pews away? It is as if you are suggesting an intermission in order for the people to love each other, rather than the Lord, who has just been made Really Present at the Altar. Where ought the focus be?
were you at a concert focussing on entertainment and focussing on the people, or were you at a Mass focussing on the Worship of Our Lord?

Christ used the analogy that the sick are in need of a doctor. Your last question calls to mind a doctor who refused to treat a sick person because only one part of the person was sick. The rest of the body is healthy, so why don’t we just concentrate on that one part. Ignore the sickness, it will go away by virtue of the parts of the body that are in good health.

No doctor would do that, because the risk of the illness spreading to other parts of the body is too great, eventually, but not necessarily, leading to death. At the very least, causing permanent damage to certain body parts.

Isn’t this, in reality, what has been happening to the Faith?
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To your first question, is the Agnus Dei one of the three principle parts of the Mass?
I am not going to respond to your second question because I find the manner in which you asked it offensive.
No, the Faith is not in trouble and it is not sick. Rest assured on that point, and try to be kind and welcoming to new members, okay?
 
jmcrae said:
Apparently so. But, since there are no rubrics for doing so in the OF Mass, it seems foolish to waste so much bandwidth blaming the OF for this - and it is certainly not the fault of the English language, either. (In fact, it seems to be the result of a failure in communication, rather than too much communication, that is at the root of this problem.)

They say that the OF is the greatest thing ever to happen to the TLM - the Latin speaking priests learned how to say their Mass in a reverent manner, and the people who attend it are much more careful nowadays to educate themselves in their faith. This is a good thing. 🙂
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The Super Soaker wasn’t a good idea, in my opinion, but then again, that big gold thing that the priests normally use looks entirely too “grand”…so maybe a little humility is in order.
 
TracyJ said:
The Super Soaker wasn’t a good idea, in my opinion, but then again, that big gold thing that the priests normally use looks entirely too “grand”…so maybe a little humility is in order.
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:confused: “Big gold thing”? There is a little bucket for the water that the altar server holds, and a little stick with a ball on the end that the priest uses for throwing the water to bless the congregation.

I don’t know the proper names for these things, but they aren’t very big.
 
TracyJ said:
To your first question, is the Agnus Dei one of the three principle parts of the Mass?
I am not going to respond to your second question because I find the manner in which you asked it offensive.
No, the Faith is not in trouble and it is not sick. Rest assured on that point, and try to be kind and welcoming to new members, okay?
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You’ve clearly misunderstood my questions, if you found them offensive. Rest assured, I beg you, I did not mean to be offend you–but they are questions that may be worth your reflection. For example, if you are invited to a dinner party, do you go into the other room and watch tv until dinner, and then make a quick exit, or do you mingle with your host? All parts of the Mass are important, otherwise they wouldn’t be a part of the Mass.

But it is also clear that maybe the Traditional Catholic Forum may not be your primary niche here. We take the Faith and the Mass–lex orandi, lex credendi–quite to heart here.

I sincerely apologize for having made you uncomfortable, Tracy, but I would appreciate–since you posted your opinions–answers to my questions. You may find one day, after reflection, that they have merit.
 
maurin said:
You’ve clearly misunderstood my questions, if you found them offensive. Rest assured, I beg you, I did not mean to be offend you–but they are questions that may be worth your reflection. For example, if you are invited to a dinner party, do you go into the other room and watch tv until dinner, and then make a quick exit, or do you mingle with your host? All parts of the Mass are important, otherwise they wouldn’t be a part of the Mass.

But it is also clear that maybe the Traditional Catholic Forum may not be your primary niche here. We take the Faith and the Mass–lex orandi, lex credendi–quite to heart here.

I sincerely apologize for having made you uncomfortable, Tracy, but I would appreciate–since you posted your opinions–answers to my questions. You may find one day, after reflection, that they have merit.
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Of course your questions may have merit. And I accept you at your word that you did not mean to be offensive.
I was taught that there are three parts of the Mass that must be observed.
This, in fact, was tradition.
Are you asking me what I expect out of the Mass?
I expect comfort and fellowship in the house of the Lord. Otherwise I could pray from home.
What do you expect?
 
jmcrae said:
:confused: “Big gold thing”? There is a little bucket for the water that the altar server holds, and a little stick with a ball on the end that the priest uses for throwing the water to bless the congregation.

I don’t know the proper names for these things, but they aren’t very big.
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You’re right! I was thinking about the thing that holds incense!
May I ask…what does OF mean?
 
TracyJ said:
And TLM?
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Sorry - alphabet soup disease. :rolleyes: :o

“OF” stands for “Ordinary Form,” meaning the form of the Mass that we most often see. (This is the term used by our Pope.) “TLM” stands for “Tridentine Latin Mass,” which our Pope refers to as the “Extraordinary Form,” or “EF” for short.
 
TracyJ said:
Of course your questions may have merit. And I accept you at your word that you did not mean to be offensive.
I was taught that there are three parts of the Mass that must be observed.
This, in fact, was tradition.
Are you asking me what I expect out of the Mass?
I expect comfort and fellowship in the house of the Lord. Otherwise I could pray from home.
What do you expect?
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to offer myself to Him–all of my failings as well as my non-failings, when He gives Himself to me at the Altar.

But no, my questions weren’t what you expect out of the Mass. Maybe my questions are more along the lines of what does the Lord expect from you at the Mass.

Thank you for accepting my apologies. They were sincere.
 
jmcrae said:
Sorry - alphabet soup disease. :rolleyes: :o

“OF” stands for “Ordinary Form,” meaning the form of the Mass that we most often see. (This is the term used by our Pope.) “TLM” stands for “Tridentine Latin Mass,” which our Pope refers to as the “Extraordinary Form,” or “EF” for short.
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Thank you very much!
I don’t think that I’ve heard those terms before and I appreciate you taking the time to explain to me.
 
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