Not Exactly A Clown Mass, But A Clown Act For Sure

[I_Believe]

Exactly.

I remember growing up, our parish had a really boring priest and quite a few people, our family included, went to the neighbouring town for mass.

Some years past, and the old parish got a new priest who could whip through a Mass on Sunday in 25 minutes.

I had moved away from home by then, but my parents returned and from their accounts, the parish was packed, renewed, rejuvenated and this priest, on his own initiative, saw to it, to have a parish hall funded and built.

A tradionalist may say, that’s awful, Mass is Holy, sacred and cannot be rushed.

A realist may say, that’s real life, people like their religion served Hot and fast.

What’s better?

A nearly empty Church with truly devoted believers?

or

A packed Church, filled with half hearted believers, who at least show up?

I suppose, your God only knows.

Well, since you are a “non-believer”, I wouldn’t think you would have much concern for souls anyway. So what moves you to enter the discussion ? I’ve often wondered why atheists take time to hang out on Christian forums. All the years I was away from the Church, I never concerned myself with those who had strong Faith

 

[I_Believe]

My wife and I used to attend the life teen Mass occasionally when we lived in California.

The parts that I had issue with were:

Christian praise music. Not appropriate.

All of the teens crowded around the altar. Often we could not see the Mass. They would lock arms and sway as the music played.

The sign of peace took 10 minutes, easily. Everyone had to hug everyone. I actually had to signal to people that I reallt did not care to make physical contact with everone on my side of the church.

If people need to be entertained in order to be kept in the church then there is not enough of The Spirit in our teachin our children.

If someone wants to be on the altar and participate in the Mass, they can be an altar server, lecter, or extraordinary minister once of age. They can be ushers, greeters. They can be teachers.

We don’t need to customize the Mass for everyone.

Eddie Mac

That’s what really upsets me about the NO. Not the Mass itself, but what it has become. The liberties taken with it. There is no longer an Ordinary Form, other than on paper in the missal. There are in fact Ordinary Forms today.

You bring up a good point. Our children are the future of the Church. Some of them will become priests. And our young priests are the only way out of this mess. But unless the Catholic schools return to the pre VII standard, I fear the crisis will never end.

God Bless H.H. BXVI for doing what he can.

 

[jmcrae]

So, suppressing the TLM for nearly 40 years, and going with a Mass that enables liturgical abuse,

Sorry, but liturgical abuses have been with us forever. It’s just that those who were doing them moved to the OF. They are still just as out of line now as they were when they were doing it in Latin (and not getting caught).

coupled with the discarding of rock solid Catholic catechesis in our schools, and false ecumenism versus ecumenism of return, has been good for the souls of the laity?

This is the result of a society that has lost its trust in authority figures - it is much more the result of Nuremburg (that unquestioning obedience to persons in authority can result in the death penalty; therefore, do what is right in your own eyes - ignore the Church, the government, your boss, your teacher, and anyone else who tells you anything you don’t like to hear - better to die for your own sins than to die for the sins of your superior officer, or your society) than it is the result of Vatican II, or the OF.

The rubrics of the OF are just as much to be followed as those of any other Mass.

The disobedience is the result of the idea that obedience leads to unwitting participation in other people’s sins.

 

[BusyLady]

I think this sort of thing has been well-tried for the past 30-40 years. I remember religious and clergy going on about ‘The Youth’ and ‘The Young People’ in the 70’s/'80’s.

I don’t think it works. It can lead to impiety and bowdlerisation. Religion isn’t entertainment. I would guess you’d get what I think happens in Protestant Revivalism; early enthusiasm and then, the implosion.

Just an opinion. I’m a long way from wanting anything to do with that sort of Mass.

You don’t have to “want to do anything” with that sort of Mass, as is your choice.

This Mass that I attend started small and has continued to grow in numbers. I can understand that you may have a “bad taste in your mouth” about it, and I’m not going to try and change your mind about it.

I can only attest to the fact of what I see: A healthy thriving community that is growing.

I am glad to be part of it.

 

[BusyLady]

I am going to walk away from this thread.

I worship the way I choose. I am glad that my parish provides me an opportunity to go to a Mass that I believe to be more fruitful for myself and my children.

I can respect that there are many that choose to attend the “boring” Mass or the “traditional” Mass. I can understand that, if that is what you are used to and expect out of a service everything else won’t measure up.

I can sleep at night knowing that our Mass isn’t a disrespectful show of entertainment. Yes, we spend a lot more time in Mass and we do a lot of fellowship before, during and after. I like it. I would much rather feel apart of a community than just be a warm body in a pew.

I am fairly confident that Jesus himself would smile knowing that there are many in this world that truly enjoy attending Mass of their choice.

Music is a form of prayer. I love the Christian Praise Music. I am glad that we have it. I can respect that this is just the type of music used at this Mass. To say it’s inappropriate is to say that Mariachi music of Mexico during their services is inappropriate; that the chosen hymns used at any other service is inappropriate; that any traditional cultural music used at any Mass, any where on earth is inappropriate.

The bottom line is that we all have opinions about what it is that we want, need and are willing to accept.

I just don’t get why it’s so important to some to slam the type of Mass some enjoy attending. What is so difficult about accepting that a different version of Mass isn’t for you? What is the point of causing a rift within our own Catholic community? What purpose does it serve? Would you rather not see our Church grow in numbers than dwindle to a few?

Peace be with everyone.

 

[savienu]

I am going to walk away from this thread.

I worship the way I choose. I am glad that my parish provides me an opportunity to go to a Mass that I believe to be more fruitful for myself and my children.

I can respect that there are many that choose to attend the “boring” Mass or the “traditional” Mass. I can understand that, if that is what you are used to and expect out of a service everything else won’t measure up.

I can sleep at night knowing that our Mass isn’t a disrespectful show of entertainment. Yes, we spend a lot more time in Mass and we do a lot of fellowship before, during and after. I like it. I would much rather feel apart of a community than just be a warm body in a pew.

I am fairly confident that Jesus himself would smile knowing that there are many in this world that truly enjoy attending Mass of their choice.

Music is a form of prayer. I love the Christian Praise Music. I am glad that we have it. I can respect that this is just the type of music used at this Mass. To say it’s inappropriate is to say that Mariachi music of Mexico during their services is inappropriate; that the chosen hymns used at any other service is inappropriate; that any traditional cultural music used at any Mass, any where on earth is inappropriate.

The bottom line is that we all have opinions about what it is that we want, need and are willing to accept.

I just don’t get why it’s so important to some to slam the type of Mass some enjoy attending. What is so difficult about accepting that a different version of Mass isn’t for you? What is the point of causing a rift within our own Catholic community? What purpose does it serve? Would you rather not see our Church grow in numbers than dwindle to a few?

Peace be with everyone.

I think one of the issues, as was explained, is the dancing. The Mass is the sacrifice at Calvary. It is not appropriate for there to be dancing, AND, mind you, it’s not licit; it is not allowed according to the GIRM.

 

[Layman]

Errr … I was speaking about the super-soaker business, Youth Masses and jazzed-up Masses generally. I didn’t read about your Mass.

 

[Muckdog]

Well, since you are a “non-believer”, I wouldn’t think you would have much concern for souls anyway. So what moves you to enter the discussion ? I’ve often wondered why atheists take time to hang out on Christian forums. All the years I was away from the Church, I never concerned myself with those who had strong Faith

Since you were away from the Church, I would think you would understand and welcome anyone back and especially welcome them into the discussion. I think you should be careful to “assume” that ‘non-believer’ equates to atheists or to someone who doen’t have much concern for souls.

 

[I_Believe]

Sorry, but liturgical abuses have been with us forever. It’s just that those who were doing them moved to the OF. They are still just as out of line now as they were when they were doing it in Latin (and not getting caught).

This is the result of a society that has lost its trust in authority figures - it is much more the result of Nuremburg (that unquestioning obedience to persons in authority can result in the death penalty; therefore, do what is right in your own eyes - ignore the Church, the government, your boss, your teacher, and anyone else who tells you anything you don’t like to hear - better to die for your own sins than to die for the sins of your superior officer, or your society) than it is the result of Vatican II, or the OF.

The rubrics of the OF are just as much to be followed as those of any other Mass.

The disobedience is the result of the idea that obedience leads to unwitting participation in other people’s sins.

Right. I don’t have a problem with VII itself or the Nous Ordo Missae. I have a problem with what each enabled. Sure society posed a great hurdle. My father told me he was stunned at how much american society had changed in the short time he served in Korea. Television had a lot to do with it. A lot of things a Catholic parent would want to shelter their children from was brought into their homes. Elvis is an example.

But fighting these changes and disintigration of morals with revolutionary changes was a mistake. It sent the wrong message.

 

[ac_claire]

Thank you for your response, ac claire. We can agree to disagree as I do not find it to take away from the meaning of the Mass and it is my opinion that if it brings someone closer to their faith then there is nothing wrong with it.

Isn’t the whole point of Mass to hear the word of God? I have to believe that my God has other more important things to worry about than whether or not there is “dancing” going on in the Church.

As for it being disrespectful…it’s a matter of opinion.

Hi again BusLady,

I think I understand what you’re saying. Keep in mind though that liturgical dancing is a practice that is inserted into the Mass in outright defiance of the Holy See.

Our various opinions about it and whether or not we personally agree or disagree with it’s tastefulness is an entirely different conversation.

 

[I_Believe]

I am going to walk away from this thread.

I worship the way I choose. I am glad that my parish provides me an opportunity to go to a Mass that I believe to be more fruitful for myself and my children.

I can respect that there are many that choose to attend the “boring” Mass or the “traditional” Mass. I can understand that, if that is what you are used to and expect out of a service everything else won’t measure up.

I can sleep at night knowing that our Mass isn’t a disrespectful show of entertainment. Yes, we spend a lot more time in Mass and we do a lot of fellowship before, during and after. I like it. I would much rather feel apart of a community than just be a warm body in a pew.

I am fairly confident that Jesus himself would smile knowing that there are many in this world that truly enjoy attending Mass of their choice.

Music is a form of prayer. I love the Christian Praise Music. I am glad that we have it. I can respect that this is just the type of music used at this Mass. To say it’s inappropriate is to say that Mariachi music of Mexico during their services is inappropriate; that the chosen hymns used at any other service is inappropriate; that any traditional cultural music used at any Mass, any where on earth is inappropriate.

The bottom line is that we all have opinions about what it is that we want, need and are willing to accept.

I just don’t get why it’s so important to some to slam the type of Mass some enjoy attending. What is so difficult about accepting that a different version of Mass isn’t for you? What is the point of causing a rift within our own Catholic community? What purpose does it serve? Would you rather not see our Church grow in numbers than dwindle to a few?

Peace be with everyone.

Have you ever assisted a TLM ? Do you understand why Trent saw a need to codify the Mass ? If you truly believe what you have posted, then you reject Trent. We are right back to square one, pre-Trent. No universal form of the Latin Rite. Now we have two forms, in thoery, but the OF has become, just as before Trent, many forms, with each parish doing it their way. A total contradiction of the word Catholic.

Again, we see another person accepting the myth that the laity just “sits there” during the TLM. I’m not blaming you, or anyone who was raised on the OF. We are only the Catholics we are made by the catechesis we receive and what we are fed from the pulpit.

As far as “causing a rift”, the rift you speak of was caused by the mis-implication of VII documents. And if the Church was truly growing as you claim, we wouldn’t have a priest shortage. Or the clustering of, and closing of parishes in metro areas.

I’m sorry, but so many pop in here without knowing what all the fuss is about, and make comments that can’t be backed up. Just as VII enabled the crisis, ignorance fuels the tired cliches.

 

[I_Believe]

Since you were away from the Church, I would think you would understand and welcome anyone back and especially welcome them into the discussion. I think you should be careful to “assume” that ‘non-believer’ equates to atheists or to someone who doen’t have much concern for souls.

Well, when one styles themselves as “non-believer”, and ends a post by putting “I suppose, your God only knows.” in bold, I wouldn’t think they are here for Christian fellowship. Nor would I consider they might be thinking of reverting.

 

[BusyLady]

I think one of the issues, as was explained, is the dancing. The Mass is the sacrifice at Calvary. It is not appropriate for there to be dancing, AND, mind you, it’s not licit; it is not allowed according to the GIRM.

The Importance of Singing

1. The Christian faithful who gather together as one to await the Lord’s coming are instructed by the Apostle Paul to sing together psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs (cf. Col 3:16). Singing is the sign of the heart’s joy (cf. Acts 2:46). Thus Saint Augustine says rightly, "Singing is for one who loves."48 There is also the ancient proverb: “One who sings well prays twice.”
2. Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of the people and abilities of each liturgical assembly. Although it is not always necessary (e.g., in weekday Masses) to sing all the texts that are of themselves meant to be sung, every care should be taken that singing by the ministers and the people is not absent in celebrations that occur on Sundays and on holy days of obligation.

In the choosing of the parts actually to be sung, however, preference should be given to those that are of greater importance and especially to those to be sung by the priest or the deacon or the lector, with the people responding, or by the priest and people together.49

1. All other things being equal, Gregorian chant holds pride of place because it is proper to the Roman Liturgy. Other types of sacred music, in particular polyphony, are in no way excluded, provided that they correspond to the spirit of the liturgical action and that they foster the participation of all the faithful.50

Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.51

Movements and Posture

1. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.

USCCB-

I didn’t find where you stated that it is forbidden. Please direct me.

I_Believe, yes, I’ve have participated in TLM as a lecturer. Thank you for your thoughts. God Bless You.

 

[jmcrae]

I_Believe, yes, I’ve have participated in TLM as a lecturer. Thank you for your thoughts. God Bless You.

Sorry, what is a “lecturer”?

If you meant “lector” this is an Order of the Tridentine priesthood - if you are a woman, there is no possible way you were doing that at the Tridentine Mass - are you sure it wasn’t an Ordinary Form Mass, using the Latin language?

 

[BusyLady]

Have you ever assisted a TLM ? Do you understand why Trent saw a need to codify the Mass ? If you truly believe what you have posted, then you reject Trent. We are right back to square one, pre-Trent. No universal form of the Latin Rite. Now we have two forms, in thoery, but the OF has become, just as before Trent, many forms, with each parish doing it their way. A total contradiction of the word Catholic.

Again, we see another person accepting the myth that the laity just “sits there” during the TLM. I’m not blaming you, or anyone who was raised on the OF. We are only the Catholics we are made by the catechesis we receive and what we are fed from the pulpit.

As far as “causing a rift”, the rift you speak of was caused by the mis-implication of VII documents. And if the Church was truly growing as you claim, we wouldn’t have a priest shortage. Or the clustering of, and closing of parishes in metro areas.

I’m sorry, but so many pop in here without knowing what all the fuss is about, and make comments that can’t be backed up. Just as VII enabled the crisis, ignorance fuels the tired cliches.

I don’t accept your apology as it comes with a “but” statement; thus negating it’s sincerity.

I didn’t come to this forum to spark controversy or debate you or anyone else about the way I choose to worship.

I came to learn more about my faith. If I am shown with solid proof that something I have believed in is inaccurate or needs to be changed then I will make that adjustment.

It’s people like you that are so unwilling to share your knowledge in a manner that is charitable. Your current method lacks and it’s attitudes such as yours that is a turn off for many.

I cannot make a claim to speak with intelligence about why Churches are clustering/closing in metro-areas. I can only speak of what is happening in my Church. The last time I checked…everything starts from small beginnings.

 

[BusyLady]

Sorry, what is a “lecturer”?

If you meant “lector” this is an Order of the Tridentine priesthood - if you are a woman, there is no possible way you were doing that at the Tridentine Mass - are you sure it wasn’t an Ordinary Form Mass, using the Latin language?

Yes, I apologize I meant lector. It was a number of years ago. It was not at a Tridentine Mass.

 

[I_Believe]

I_Believe, yes, I’ve have participated in TLM as a lecturer. Thank you for your thoughts. God Bless You.

You have never participated in a TLM in any capacity in which you would be allowed in the Santuary. Nice try.

edit: didn’t see your clarification. Mea culpa. Sincerely.

 

[I_Believe]

I don’t accept your apology as it comes with a “but” statement; thus negating it’s sincerity…
…I cannot make a claim to speak with intelligence about why Churches are clustering/closing in metro-areas. I can only speak of what is happening in my Church. The last time I checked…everything starts from small beginnings.

I wasn’t apologizing to you, I was saying I’m sorry that we have to keep separarting myth from facts here on this fora.

Like you just admitted, you are basing your comments on one individual parish. Like I mentioned, folks pop in here, make uninformed comments, and then when called on them, say “well ok, but…”

So, if you don’t want to answer the question of whether or not you have ever assisted a “boring” TLM as a “warm body in the pew”, fine. But it’s amazing how so many pop in here, and take offense at any mention of an abuse prone Liturgy, and follow by commenting on something they have never experienced.

You insulted those who honor the direction set forth by the Council at Trent by describing the most precious treasure of Holy Mother Church. Boring huh ?

And you are going to lecture me on Charity ?

You going to answer the question or not ? Have you ever assisted the TLM ?

 

[BusyLady]

I wasn’t apologizing to you, I was saying I’m sorry that we have to keep separarting myth from facts here on this fora.

Like you just admitted, you are basing your comments on one individual parish. Like I mentioned, folks pop in here, make uninformed comments, and then when called on them, say “well ok, but…”

So, if you don’t want to answer the question of whether or not you have ever assisted a “boring” TLM as a “warm body in the pew”, fine. But it’s amazing how so many pop in here, and take offense at any mention of an abuse prone Liturgy, and follow by commenting on something they have never experienced.

You insulted those who honor the direction set forth by the Council at Trent by describing the most precious treasure of Holy Mother Church. Boring huh ?

And you are going to lecture me on Charity ?

You going to answer the question or not ? Have you ever assisted the TLM ?

Perhaps there is some confusion here as I see a tradional Mass differently than you do. In answer to your question…I have not assisted in the TLM.

Yes, I am making comments based upone my Parish. It is what I know.

Boring was not my word, it is one that I hear often with regard to Mass by those that are disenchanted with the Church. I do not find the Mass itself to be “boring”. I do, however, know that some Priests are more charismatic than others.

I am not offended by your fortitude with regard to this topic.

I had no intention of lecturing you about charity. I made an observation. I stated it. It’s my perception of your postings. You do not need to feel slighted.

This is just a forum. Many people come and go for a number of reasons. I don’t allow the postings of one individual to make a determination as to whether or not I will stay. I also don’t really mind providing clarity for those that may be misinformed or have a misunderstanding about any given topic that I may have knowledge about. If I don’t understand something then I’ll say and ask for clarification (as stated in my previous post).

I most certainly wouldn’t be apologetic about providing information to new people that may venture into my life. I suppose that’s the educator in me. I just give the information and move forward. I don’t find a need to take a stance of “I know more, therefore I am better.” nor do I take the stance of “I’m tired of explaining things to others.” Life is too short to spend getting upset over something that can be easily remedied.

It was also not my intention to insult anyone. If I did so, then I apologize.

Have a good evening.

 

[CWBetts]

This is just discusting. It only proves even more that the Traditional Mass is the only true Mass catholics should be attending. God Bless

Just because a Mass is NO does not mean it is rife withe abuses. How narrow-minded, and border-line schismatic.