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savienu
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Singing is not dancing. Here’s what Cardinal Arinze, Vatican Prefect, has to say on the matter: mulier-fortis.blogspot.com/2008/08/cardinal-arinze-on-liturgical-dance.html
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BusyLady
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I was looking at the bolded part of the text above. The “dancing” that I’m thinking of is merely movement of the hands and arms much like sign language.
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savienu
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Did you read the link I posted? Did you watch the video? I also find it interesting that the source you posted mentioned using latin in the liturgy, and gregorian chant or other sacred music for mass, yet the lifeteen mass uses none of this.
Liturgical dance is forbidden. It is irreverent. Watch the video.
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BusyLady
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*Cardinal Arinze sets the record straight: **the graceful movements of both African and Asian peoples is part of worship, and is an expression of joy… it is NOT “dance,” *and the Latin Rite should have no truck with so-called liturgical dance during the celebration of Mass and the Sacraments. Definitive answer. End of
This is what is happening in our Parish. I may have labeled it “dance” as that seems to be what most would label it as but it is more in line with being part of our worship and is indeed an expression of joy.
Thank you for providing the link.
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savienu
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Pardon me, are you in Africa or Asia? No? Then no, it is NOT what is happening in your parish. The link and the video specifically says that it has NO PLACE in the Latin Rite.
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pnewton
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I agree with you that it is a long way from anything I want. I had to attend a LifeTeen Mass once and will not do so again, if avoidable.
However, I have to remind myself that, “a bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.” (Matt. 12:20)
Not all have arrived to the state of holiness and contemplation that us CAF posters have. I understand an outreach that involves music I might find distasteful, but might appeal to others. I would only include two caveats.
- I believe such programs, be they LifeTeen or Children’s Church, should always be geared toward good, orthodox Catholic theology.
- It should never be assumed that all Teens or children are best served by this ministry. Some will be more attracted to the contemplative side of Catholicism and have been for 2000 years. One must be as equal in encouraging this as one would be in serving other teens.
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ac_claire
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Dance in the Liturgy, from the CONGREGATION FOR THE SACRAMENTS AND DIVINE WORSHIP (1975)
In case you missed this when it was linked before, here’s an interview with Cardinal Arinze in Adoremus where the Holy See’s position on liturgical dance is addressed.
And then for background, if you’re interested, a Q&A about the history of liturgical dance from St. Michael’s Call website.
Hope that helps.
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Yours_Truly
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I believe implicit in this statement is the diabolical disorientation Sister Lucy spoke of.
The argument is basically that, since some people are corrupt and worldly, the Church must offer corrupt and worldly “masses” that will appeal to such people. In my opinion, this way of thinking is certainly diabolic. It is a deception of the devil, under the appearance of good, to corrupt the Church and confirm the corrupt youth in their worldly ways.
What is the Mass and what is its purpose? The purpose of the Mass is not to appeal to us. It is to re-present the Sacrifice of Jesus to God for the four-fold purpose of:
1.) Glorifying God and acknowledge his supreme dominion over all things;
2.) In reparation for our sins;
3.) To thank Him for innumerable benefits received; and
4.) To petition for the needs of ourselves and others.
The thought that the Mass should to appeal to the baseness of worldly people “to attract them” is blasphemy. This diabolical disorientation only serves to corrupt the Church by transforming it into a worldly monstrosity that is offensive to God and a mockery to all reasonable people.
The Church should offer an alternative to the worldliness that the corrupt youth are involved in. Let the Church encourage them to lead a holy and devout life - a heroic life of a saint, rather than lowering itself to their level of baseness by imitating them, and thereby confirming them in their ways. God help us. With grown ups and Priest thinking this way, what chance to these “youth” have? Hopefully they will stumble across a Traditional Church one day and experience something “other-worldly”, rather than simply more of “this-worldly”.
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Layman
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I’ll stick my neck out here and say that if you’re a Catholic and remain unmoved by Gregorian chant done well, at a TLM, there’s something wrong with you.
[My opinion:] I think it’s a mistake to dumb down a Mass to reach ‘The Youth’. Set the bar a bit above their heads, and invite them to reach up. Christ will do the rest, if the priest is pious.
I think clergy and mature men and women look stupid trying to do teen slang. I recall cringing at this when I was a teen. I say teen culture is mostly rubbish anyway; a way of using sex, fear, sentiment and aggression to sell trash to kids. Evoke an emotional response = profit!
Link (scroll down): Rocking and rolling is a euphmeism for sex, I recall. Utterly out of place at a Mass.
[My opinion:] I think it’s a mistake to dumb down a Mass to reach ‘The Youth’. Set the bar a bit above their heads, and invite them to reach up. Christ will do the rest, if the priest is pious.
I think clergy and mature men and women look stupid trying to do teen slang. I recall cringing at this when I was a teen. I say teen culture is mostly rubbish anyway; a way of using sex, fear, sentiment and aggression to sell trash to kids. Evoke an emotional response = profit!
Link (scroll down): Rocking and rolling is a euphmeism for sex, I recall. Utterly out of place at a Mass.
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Silver_Thread
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A couple of years ago (the priest has since gone), an assoc. pastor gave the Easter Blessing using what looked like a toilet bowl brush! I know a toilet bowl brush when I see one!!! It broke in half as he was using it, (made in China) .
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pnewton
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The thought that the Mass should to appeal to the baseness of worldly people “to attract them” is blasphemy. This diabolical disorientation only serves to corrupt the Church by transforming it into a worldly monstrosity that is offensive to God and a mockery to all reasonable people.
Apply Sister Lucia and hurl insults if you see fit. Jesus was told he had a devil, too. I did not mention, nor did anyone that we appeal to people’s sinful nature. That is your twist on everything that said. No one is talking about using sex, lust, money, greed, pride, etc. If by base nature you mean our more basic self, I believe that we should instead follow the example of Christ who appealed to the masses and taught unlike the Pharisees. He cured their physical illnesses and twice even fed them. If you think the scripture I used was wrongly used, then how? We can think what we want, but our opinion is lacking if it deviates from Christianity. I will give another. When the Pharisees confronted Christ about his “base” associations, he told them it is the sick that need the physician, not the healthy.
You simply can not use words like “wordly” and “base” as referring to those things you disapprove of and then use those words as referring to thing sinful in the same argument. If by base nature you mean our more basic self, then the Mass should appeal to the baseness of worldly people. This is Sacramental theology. . It is the nature of God to appeal to us where we are. This is the message of the cross, the incarnation and the Sacraments. God commended his love toward us that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. God does not need the form of bread to come to use. We do. He appeals to us in our weakness.
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pnewton
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I am moved by some chant (not all), but other things as well. I think you are right about the setting the bar high. Sometimes. I do not know that there is a right answer to the most prudent way to reach teenagers, as long as one does compromise essentials.
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Yours_Truly
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pnewton
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Easy. My comment is that I can not watch youtube.
Perhaps I do not understand your use of the word “base”. The context came out of Lifeteen Mass and the type of Praise music. When I think of “base” I sure can think of a lot of things lower than that. Maybe it is a subjective and meaningless word in your usage.
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jmcrae
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I didn’t watch the whole thing, but neither of those look like they’re taking place in a Church or at Mass. The first one looks like a Theology on Tap event, and the second one looks like a coffee house, or something.
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BusyLady
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***If the proposal of the religious dance in the West is really to be made welcome, care will have to be taken that in its regard a place be found outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas which are not strictly liturgical. Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance. **Dance in the Liturgy, from the CONGREGATION FOR THE SACRAMENTS AND DIVINE WORSHIP (1975)
In case you missed this when it was linked before, here’s an interview with Cardinal Arinze in Adoremus where the Holy See’s position on liturgical dance is addressed.
And then for background, if you’re interested, a Q&A about the history of liturgical dance from St. Michael’s Call website.
Hope that helps.
We can recall how much was derived from the presence of the Samoans at Rome for the missionary festival of 1971. At the end of the Mass, they carried out their dance in St. Peter’s square: and all were joyful*
~from the first link
***This, in the West, it cannot be included in the Mass except by special indult in the case perhaps of an ethnic parish with a cultural background of true sacred dancing. **
There are other cultures where dance has been apart of sacred expression for thousands of years. It is part of the culture. It is part of the people, not just an entertainment. In those cultures the Church allows Liturgical Dancing because in those cultures the dancing that is done during the Mass is culturally sacred.
The issue is that only that which has a sacred purpose, only that which is suitable for sacred expression, only that which facilitates the sacred time and place of the Mass can be included in the Mass. Thus any dance, instrument, music, or song that is not suitable for sacred expression cannot be used. Folk music and dancing and the like is fine for a non-liturgical meeting outside of the Church such as a youth group at camp or in fellowship hall, but the folk nature of those activities, by definition, is not sacred.
~from the third link*
First off let me make a clarification, I did state that it was during the recessional that it took place. Yesterday, it was after the recessional had ended and the priest had exited the sanctuary. The kids danced to a Marvelous Light. Let me also add that this isn’t something that is done on a regular basis. It is normally a culminating celebration following their return from retreats: Teen ACTS; Stubenville-South; etc.
Now let me say that I read both first and third link. I understand that both state that it is not typically allowed during Mass, but both gave exceptions. I will have to talk to my Pastor in regard to this topic, because as it currently stands…there seems to be some leeway given within certain criteria.
I appreciate you willingness to provide information minus the condescension. Thank you
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ac_claire
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You are welcome, and thank you for reading them.Now let me say that I read both first and third link. I understand that both state that it is not typically allowed during Mass, but both gave exceptions. I will have to talk to my Pastor in regard to this topic, because as it currently stands...there seems to be some leeway given within certain criteria.
I appreciate you willingness to provide information minus the condescension. Thank you
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TracyJ
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I didn’t want to judge the supersoakers…etc. but if he can’t pull out of the church what on Earth CAN he do?
Surely it’s not a good thing physically or spiritually for him to sit and fume about things that he find objectionable?
What CAN he do?
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ac_claire
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Ok I think I might have misunderstood you. I thought you meant go to another church as in, leaving the Catholic Church lol. Did you just mean go to another parish…?
If so then…yeah, ok that might be a good idea.
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Muckdog
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May I suggest we learn more of what “Dance” really ‘is’ before we attack.
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