Not having sex until marriage

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Norseman82 –
Mchale – Where did you read this stat? I read that you are way more likely to stay together with a partner if you marry over 25 and both come from stable, 2 parent families. Coming from a religious background also helped increases the chance of two people staying together, however this only helped increase your chances slightly suggesting it didn’t play a huge part at all.

Andy
Andy,

Back before I was Catholic, I went to college and go a degree with a minor in Child and Family Studies at a VERY liberal university. One of the things I was shocked to learn in not just one or two of my classes, but ALL, is that living together before marriage does significantly decrease the chances of a marriage succeeding.

Being over 25, coming from a stable 2 parent family and having the same religious background are important factors, too. So is being a virgin at the time of marriage.

But, the reason living together before marriage is such big factor is this: When two people live together before they get married on some level there is always the idea that “I can always leave if it doesn’t work out.” This permeates other aspects of the relationship. The couple does not seek to compromise in the same way a married couple does because the situation is not permanent. There is a certain kind of independence (different from the type of independence retained by individuals within a marriage) that damages the relationship, instead of trying harmonize and blend into a couple sharing a life, couples that live together try to harmonize while attempting to retain an identity that is separate from the relationship of “couple.”

Obvious examples of this are things like “It’s my money, I can spend it how I want.” “I don’t have to tell you where I’m going.” “I can make career decisions without your imput.” “You shouldn’t look in my phone because it doesn’t concern you who calls me.”

Like I said, these are obvious examples, but this phenomenon exists in more subtle ways, too. The psychological aspect of it is this: the individuals in the couple are trying to reserves parts of themselves for themselves in case things don’t work out. If there is not total mutual giving, then the losses are less devastating when things don’t work out. Unfortunately, this attitude sabotages a marriage, because in order to last a marriage needs partners that are able to sacrifice self, ego, and personal desire at times for the other person in that relationship. So, couples who live together before marriage have trouble uniting as a whole and giving themselves totally over to the success of the marriage.

Incidentally, it was Family studies that first made me think, maybe Christians aren’t totally bonkers.😃 😃
 
How free is a decision to marry someone when you already own a couch/dog/house together? The idea of having to seperate and find somewhere else to live independently is extremely scary too, therefore could be more “coersion” to marry.
 
How free is a decision to marry someone when you already own a couch/dog/house together? The idea of having to seperate and find somewhere else to live independently is extremely scary too, therefore could be more “coersion” to marry.
Internal coercion can even be grounds of nullity.
 
Being over 25, coming from a stable 2 parent family and having the same religious background are important factors, too. So is being a virgin at the time of marriage.
I think biologically we’re best suited for procreation when we’re around 20. People married much earlier than these days back in the times when not everyone went to university and thinks worked somehow. If being over 25 years of age were to be a soft requirement, I would say such a requirement existed because of the state of our culture in this day and age, not because of inherent human qualities.

As for coming from a stable two parent family, I’d say it’s important (even though I don’t come from one), but I’d make a distinction between that and an age requirement and a clear distinction between that and being a virgin. I am assuming that by being a virgin you understand never having had consensual intercourse. You also probably exclude widows. This leads me to think you focus on circumstances of losing one’s virginity which have a moral significance. Coming from a broken family is not a child’s fault, however. Of course, you can consider the ill effects of being raised in a broken family and the ill effects of not being a virgin, and you can compare the two. But I wouldn’t lump them together too much or indeed the distinction could be blurred. Sometimes blurring the distinction of personal culpability leads to such things as people shunning illegitimate children and treating real, living people as fruits of sin whose very existence is an offence.

Besides, just on the margin, people who have sincerely repented for whatever made them lose virginity in a way that’s morally significant, shouldn’t have it thrown in their faces. Yes, it’s a complication. Yes, it has negative results. Yes, it can cause problems. But the sin has been forgiven and the person may well be holier than his or her virgin spouse to be. I guess I just want to say that with the sin absolved and with no such dangers to future marital life as could make it impossible to live a healthy marriage, the circumstance of not being a virgin shouldn’t be such a great obstacle as it is sometimes.
When two people live together before they get married on some level there is always the idea that “I can always leave if it doesn’t work out.” This permeates other aspects of the relationship.
That’s something which bothers me even in non-sexual cohabitation. That basically turns into a sexless marriage which isn’t really marriage, i.e. perhaps some form of sexless cohabitation. The people grow to live and depend on each other as spouses and then boom, everyone’s free to leave at any point.
The couple does not seek to compromise in the same way a married couple does because the situation is not permanent.
I would say that is something which plagues all kinds of relationships. These days people seem not to want to compromise in any way and starting over with a new person is preferred over trying to work on a given relationship. That’s an illusion. It won’t necessarily be any better with a new person, while it may well be better with one with whom we’ve already put some work in it. Cf. dancing partners. Most people would fix problems with the existing dancing partner instead of looking for a new one with whom to learn all the synchronised steps, but not so with a life partner.
There is a certain kind of independence (different from the type of independence retained by individuals within a marriage) that damages the relationship, instead of trying harmonize and blend into a couple sharing a life, couples that live together try to harmonize while attempting to retain an identity that is separate from the relationship of “couple.”
Yes, I think that kind of independence is very popular these days in all sorts of relationships. People are “single inside”.
Obvious examples of this are things like “It’s my money, I can spend it how I want.” “I don’t have to tell you where I’m going.” “I can make career decisions without your imput.” “You shouldn’t look in my phone because it doesn’t concern you who calls me.”
It’s reassuring to see that more people notice the problem. I take exception to the part about looking in the phone. I think it’s normally wrong to snoop into someone’s phone. I’m not a fan of secrets and I think it’s healthy if spouses aren’t secretive about phones, e-mail, letters etc, but demanding someone’s passwords or checking his phone doesn’t sound healthy to me. I’m not a fanatic of privacy of correspondence, but it’s still a concern. Even if it shouldn’t be made into more than it is, it’s still valid.
Like I said, these are obvious examples, but this phenomenon exists in more subtle ways, too. The psychological aspect of it is this: the individuals in the couple are trying to reserves parts of themselves for themselves in case things don’t work out. If there is not total mutual giving, then the losses are less devastating when things don’t work out. Unfortunately, this attitude sabotages a marriage, because in order to last a marriage needs partners that are able to sacrifice self, ego, and personal desire at times for the other person in that relationship. So, couples who live together before marriage have trouble uniting as a whole and giving themselves totally over to the success of the marriage.
Yes. I believe non-Catholics may be able to understand this, but I wager the difference between a Catholic and a non-Catholic’s approach to this is noticeable. This is another thing which makes me want to stick to the idea of marrying only a Catholic unless there’s a very exceptional situation.
 
I think biologically we’re best suited for procreation when we’re around 20. People married much earlier than these days back in the times when not everyone went to university and thinks worked somehow. If being over 25 years of age were to be a soft requirement, I would say such a requirement existed because of the state of our culture in this day and age, not because of inherent human qualities.
Absolutely. I was not talking about marriage through history, as I didn’t think it was necessarily relevant to his particular question, but rather about what current sociologists are finding out about what factors encourage a marriage, in our society, to last.
As for coming from a stable two parent family, I’d say it’s important (even though I don’t come from one), but I’d make a distinction between that and an age requirement and a clear distinction between that and being a virgin. I am assuming that by being a virgin you understand never having had consensual intercourse. You also probably exclude widows. This leads me to think you focus on circumstances of losing one’s virginity which have a moral significance.
This is not my focus, this is what sociologists who study marriage are finding.
Coming from a broken family is not a child’s fault, however. Of course, you can consider the ill effects of being raised in a broken family and the ill effects of not being a virgin, and you can compare the two. But I wouldn’t lump them together too much or indeed the distinction could be blurred.
I wasn’t lumping them together at all. I simply stated a list of things that can factor into whether or not a marriage will succeed. In our current society those are, but not limited to: age at time of marriage (over 25), parents remaining married, not living together, having a common religious background, virginity at time of marriage. A person can have all of these and a marriage can still fail, or none of them and have a thriving marriage, BUT findings indicated that marriages that combine all these things do have the best chances for survival.
Sometimes blurring the distinction of personal culpability leads to such things as people shunning illegitimate children and treating real, living people as fruits of sin whose very existence is an offence.

Besides, just on the margin, people who have sincerely repented for whatever made them lose virginity in a way that’s morally significant, shouldn’t have it thrown in their faces. Yes, it’s a complication. Yes, it has negative results. Yes, it can cause problems. But the sin has been forgiven and the person may well be holier than his or her virgin spouse to be. I guess I just want to say that with the sin absolved and with no such dangers to future marital life as could make it impossible to live a healthy marriage, the circumstance of not being a virgin shouldn’t be such a great obstacle as it is sometimes.
I absolutely agree. I was in no way “throwing it in the face” of anyone who has repented sexual activity. I am a convert. I am not a virgin and I am constantly offended by the people on this forum who continue to give advice to people by saying things like, “If she’ll sleep with someone before she’s married, what makes you think she’ll stop sleeping with people after she’s married.”:mad: As if because I was not raised Christian, I will always be whore, regardless of conversion. There is no charity in statements like that.

I was not saying “being a virgin at the time of marriage contributes to the success of marriage” because it’s simply my opinion, but because that’s what I learned while obtaining a degree studying how marriages and family work. This is even true of non-religious people (though those who tend to be virgins at time of matrimony DO tend to be religious).
Yes, I think that kind of independence is very popular these days in all sorts of relationships. People are “single inside”.
Yes, exactly. You are much more concise than I.🙂
 
Absolutely. I was not talking about marriage through history, as I didn’t think it was necessarily relevant to his particular question, but rather about what current sociologists are finding out about what factors encourage a marriage, in our society, to last.
It’s sad. We can take canon law and see 14 and 16 years as the minimum age. And it was less in the previous code. It is still less in cultures which have carried it over from previous centuries - Jews, Muslims… I’m not saying 14 is the perfect age to marry for an err… woman? or 16 for a “man”, but what do I know about how people matured in past years? It does look like while they didn’t necessarily absorb an amount of knowledge comparable to ours (then again, in what way is car knowledge superior to horse knowledge and what exactly do kids learn from watching cartoons all day long which they wouldn’t learn better from playing outside?), they did achieve emotional maturity and stability unknown to us among young people. Sadly I must say I very much doubt in my having been ready for marriage myself until now and I wouldn’t bet my lunch money on my current self, either, although I believe I’m “viable” now, which isn’t that bad. To me, this seems like something from which nearly no one comes out unscathed, which hasn’t spared me either.

By the way, in the practise of canon law, age 26 was old spinster (wonder if old bachelor was the same age or older) and counted towards “difficulty finding a partner” for dispensations. Was or still is even. Except it’s only a recent (although returning) phaenomenon that young people would marry while
at university or otherwise at an age under 25-26 or older. Unfortunately, I’ll have finished my 26th year (I’m finishing 25th soon and things take time, so it’s easy maths), probably more than that, with not much of a desire to put it off on my part.
A person can have all of these and a marriage can still fail, or none of them and have a thriving marriage, BUT findings indicated that marriages that combine all these things do have the best chances for survival.
Understandably. Not having a father or mother figure or not having them acting together as one unit, that’s something which negatively affects a person’s development. I can cite myself as an example and my best friend is another guy who grew up without a father in the house, so I can tell… I never really knew how to deal with girls and even now, after many years and many experiences good or bad, it’s still not a natural thing to me.
As if because I was not raised Christian, I will always be whore, regardless of conversion.
Not everyone thinks like that.
I was not saying “being a virgin at the time of marriage contributes to the success of marriage” because it’s simply my opinion, but because that’s what I learned while obtaining a degree studying how marriages and family work.
Yes, that’s true.
Yes, exactly. You are much more concise than I.🙂
I sincerely doubt that. 🙂 But thank you. 🙂 I think there’s a lot to work on… the “me, me, me” attitude desires to exact a toll on everyone. “Me first”, “my needs”, “my rights”… All this stuff doesn’t make us happy. The happiest one is is when one is able to forget all these.
 
Hi

Out of interest, to those of you who are married. How long did you date before getting married ??

Thanks
Andy
I dated 8 1/2 years. I think long dating periods/engagements are a temptation to unchastity. My philosophy is: if you can’t get married in the next year or two, don’t date.
 
My now husband and I had to work on this. We were together for about 7 months and then at a distance for two years, then together for 3 months, then got married. A long “engagement” is hard. Why do that?

Admitting that it’s hard is probably a good first step. Then, avoid situations where you could stumble. For example, if you’re in a movie theater or restaurant, you can’t give in, but if you’re in someone’s appartment alone, you could fail. So, don’t go there. Sounds simple, but it’s the way the saints have done it. God’s truth stays forever. Pray a lot.

RubyWannabe
 
. And what on earth do you mean what will you give your future spouse?, are you suggesting the only thing you have to offer a guy is your virginity? …… I’d hope you had a damn sight more than that to give your future husband.
:nope:
Here, have some chlamydia. Here’s some warts. What’s a little disease among friends?
Is that what you have in mind?

It takes a very blinded person to not see the error in Andy’s thinking. A person who has the moral character and fortitude to be chaste is bringing a LOT more to a marriage that meets your eye. Commitment, permanence, holiness, self-respect, love, honor, temperance to name just a few.
 
Like I said, I have a lot more to give to my future husband. One of those is commitment. Also, if I contract a lifelong STD (condoms don’t always work), I’d be giving that to my future kids. And if a guy wants more than sex, he can wait.

Also, it’s really empowering to wait. It means that, as good as desires are, the ability to master them until the right time takes incredible self-control. That’s one reason why fasting is an excellent religious discipline.

Frankly, I’m sick of hearing about how people have sexual “needs”. Those don’t exist until you get married (sex is an important part of marriage) and even then, if your spouse is tired, pregnant, sick, just had a baby, etc., you don’t have the right to force them (and sadly, marital rape does exist) or seek it elsewhere (whether through yourself, porn, an affair, etc.). Sometimes in marriage, you have to wait awhile to have sex, but hopefully, it’s not as long as when you had to wait before. (please correct me if any of this did not sound right).

The point of sex is to make a total gift of yourself to the one you love forever. This love and gift is so great, that you might have to give it a name and document it in nine months’ time. It was not meant to be opened before marriage. I’ve seen the consequences when people tried to open that gift before it was ready.
 
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