Not just another CITH Thread...

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Absolutely. The misinterpreted ‘spirit of V2’ gave us many changes and poor results. The Pope and other high ranking clergy are beginning the rebuilding process. Getting people to stop taking the Blessed Sacrament in their hands would help that cause.
Focusing on the problems we have, and educating people will take care of the problems. CITH is not the issue; it is an emotional issue with some but it is not a source of the problem. Take care of the problem, not the perception of the problem.

the Church has survived for 20 centuries with CITH without falling apart. CITH is not the issue, it is simply the whipping post. Train people properly about the Eucharist and the problems resolve themselves.

I have been involved directly with RCIA for well over 15 years. I have always taught both forms of reception, always taught that the universal norm in the Roman rite is COTT, and always taught that it is up to the individual to choose how they receive. Some who have joined the Church have chosen to receive COTT; the larger number have chosen CITH. A number of those who have joined have also signed up for Perpetual Adoration. Interestingly, primarily those who receive CITH.

I understand you do not like it. I have no problem with that; but I most definitely disagree that CITH is the source of the loss of understanding about the Eucharist; it didn’t cause that problem in the Eastern rites which have had it since their founding.
 
So why the fuss about reinstating its use? Its not a bad practice as you have said.
As it was banned by the Church in the Latin Rite, the method of “reinstatement” of the practice leaves it very tarnished at best, especially when one considers Who was being used in some political maneuvering. The timing could have been better too. As far as I know politics wasn’t involved to this extent in the Eastern Rites or in the Franciscan communities who appear to have much stricter disciplines. Perhaps if the Vatican had initiated the reinstatement it might have been more acceptable to the Latin Rite (as was the relaxation of the Friday meat abstinence, for example) but this we’ll never know for sure.
 
As it was banned by the Church in the Latin Rite, the method of “reinstatement” of the practice leaves it very tarnished at best, especially when one considers Who was being used in some political maneuvering. The timing could have been better too. As far as I know politics wasn’t involved to this extent in the Eastern Rites or in the Franciscan communities who appear to have much stricter disciplines. Perhaps if the Vatican had initiated the reinstatement it might have been more acceptable to the Latin Rite (as was the relaxation of the Friday meat abstinence, for example) but this we’ll never know for sure.
But this “method of reinstatement” you are talking about is all heresay. False accusations against the integrity of the leadership of our Church. Why doesn’t anyone question allowing the cup to the laity once again? It was restored in Vatican II, is it not? No Protestant influence this time?
 
Okay, we understand that part. So where is the paten in the discussion of preventing particles from falling to the floor? Seems as if should be part of the equation too, no?
We use the paten at our parish.

But again, if there is no patten, the same problem is faced whether you are receiving CITH or COTT.
 
But this “method of reinstatement” you are talking about is all heresay.
You asked why and I offered a plausible answer. I could be wrong but how else could it have been introduced as the Vatican never initiated the permission and tried to impose heavy conditions on its usage? It had to start somewhere as a defiance to the then-existing rules against sacrilege. Defiance against the Church is not a good thing, right?
 
We use the paten at our parish.

But again, if there is no patten, the same problem is faced whether you are receiving CITH or COTT.
Not really. The path taken by the CITH method is longer. It’s good you use the paten though. Not many parishes do.
 
You asked why and I offered a plausible answer. I could be wrong but how else could it have been introduced as the Vatican never initiated the permission and tried to impose heavy conditions on its usage? It had to start somewhere as a defiance to the then-existing rules against sacrilege. Defiance against the Church is not a good thing, right?
I am not suggesting that there are no disobedient bishops at the beginning. But that doesn’t mean the Vatican can be coerced into allowing questionable theology for the sake of satisfying Bishops. Given the record of the Vatican, they haven’t been exactly pleasing dissenters. I wonder why such claim is made when they allowed CITH. I agree with Bro. JR’s statement that the Vatican allowed it because they wanted to extend the limits of discipline to ensure everyone is not being disobedient to the Church and at the same time see this issue of CITH as nothing against doctrine or tradition of the Church. If it was, they would have never made the change, contrary to what many here seem to believe.
 
Not really. The path taken by the CITH method is longer. It’s good you use the paten though. Not many parishes do.
Our former priest is a very traditional OF priest. I’m becoming more active with the parish to make sure it stays that way with our new priest.

I don’t think the issue is about speed. People didn’t switch to CITH to speed up communion lines. When I receive CITH, its not because I’m in a hurry.
 
I said CITH wasn’t necessarily an intrinsic evil. I didnt’ say it was a better form than COTT.
Nobody is making that claim either. No one is trying to best or even replace COTT here.
 
Focusing on the problems we have, and educating people will take care of the problems. CITH is not the issue; it is an emotional issue with some but it is not a source of the problem. Take care of the problem, not the perception of the problem.

the Church has survived for 20 centuries with CITH without falling apart. CITH is not the issue, it is simply the whipping post. Train people properly about the Eucharist and the problems resolve themselves.

I have been involved directly with RCIA for well over 15 years. I have always taught both forms of reception, always taught that the universal norm in the Roman rite is COTT, and always taught that it is up to the individual to choose how they receive. Some who have joined the Church have chosen to receive COTT; the larger number have chosen CITH. A number of those who have joined have also signed up for Perpetual Adoration. Interestingly, primarily those who receive CITH.

I understand you do not like it. I have no problem with that; but I most definitely disagree that CITH is the source of the loss of understanding about the Eucharist; it didn’t cause that problem in the Eastern rites which have had it since their founding.
CITH has not been around in the Latin rite for twenty centuries.

Pope Paul VI stated CITH may lead to a diminished belief in the Real Presence and forty years later guess what we’ve got?

There are valid reasons to distribute Holy Communion COTT. There are none that I’m aware of for CITH. As an RCIA instructor what reasons to you give?
 
I don’t think the issue is about speed. People didn’t switch to CITH to speed up communion lines. When I receive CITH, its not because I’m in a hurry.
Boy howdy is that ever true.

On occasion, when visiting friends, I go to Sunday Mass at a parish that still uses the Communion rail, and most people receive COTT. The priest goes down the rails saying TheBodyofChrist (jammiong it together is the only way I can convey how fast he says it).

When I am in my parish, reception is standing as there is no rail. Properly done, after the person ahead of you hasreceived and moved, you should bow to the Eucharist (either stepping up just before doing so, or just after); then the one distributing, holding up the Host says “The Body of Christ” and you respond “Amen” and then receive - either COTT or CITH. The time between the one distributing and your reception is markedly slower this way than at the other parish.

Why is, or should speed be an issue? It seems if we are truly aware of what we are doing, it should be done in a slower and more reverent fashion.

The other parish too often reminds me of my pastor when I was an altar server (starting in 1957); one learned very quickly to walk backwards at a good clip because he buzzed through the Communion line moving down the rail like there was a record to set. You either moved fast enough to suit him or you physically got a nudge - in front of the whole congregation.

Going to the local Trappist Abbey, the pace of Communion is even a bit slower than in my parish. Of course, it is not like the monks have somewhere to be and are running late!😃
 
…to ensure everyone is not being disobedient to the Church…
I’m not sure I like this phraseology. At least I hope it’s not true.

I don’t know if you followed the exchange between JR and myself earlier but we discussed Paul VI’s lifting of the mortal sin surrounding eating meat on Fridays. The Pope didn’t really “allow” eating meat on Friday in the strict sense; he actually was appealing to our higher spirituality to perform some required penance. However, people were running around eating meat to their heart’s desire and no one talked penance. Now I’m not saying that CITH is equivalent to eating meat on Friday but keep in mind that spirituality factor. Also “allowing” something isn’t always the most accurate statement to make in such situations. It’s certainly not a disciplinary measure or obedience issue when you loosen the restrictions so that’s why I’m having a tough time tying CITH to a higher spiritual level, especially when there is added risk to profanity, and you even admitted to that factor.
 
CITH has not been around in the Latin rite for twenty centuries.

Pope Paul VI stated CITH may lead to a diminished belief in the Real Presence and forty years later guess what we’ve got?

There are valid reasons to distribute Holy Communion COTT. There are none that I’m aware of for CITH. As an RCIA instructor what reasons to you give?
I don’t give reasons. I explain that the norm is for the universal Roman rite - so, for example, traveling in a foreign country, they may not see CITH at all; I explain what an indult is and that CITH is by indult and that it can be withdrawn; and both methods are demonstrated.

History is not part of the introduction of reception; this is done just before Easter when they will be receiving for the first time.

I have heard over and over again that Paul 6 made the statement. He made more than one statement that I probably disagree with. Given the fact that for the last 800 years CITH didn’t cause loss of faith to the Franciscans, and that for the last 2000 years it didn’t do so in the Eastern rites provides logical grounds for considering that his statement doesn’t seem to be founded on reality so much as a personal opinion (assuming he actually made the statement - I cannot recall ever seeing it sourced). and being made pope doesn’t guarantee that his opinions have merit.

The short of it is that a small group of people really don’t like CITH and keep focusing on it, and blaming it for what is actually due to lack of catechesis. It is simply one more post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument that has not proof to it other than the fact that the occurances appear in the same general historical vicinity.

I have said it I am sure to the point of ad nauseum to some: the great majority of my parish receives CITH; we have a vibrant social ministry, have built the first Catholic grade school in 40 years in the diocese, have only the OF, and also have had Perpetual Adoration 24/7/363 for more than 15 years; one ordained, another who entered seminary for several years, and one sister who joined a habit wearing missionary group. maybe two vocations and a 3rd one giving a long look is no great shakes. But the bit about CITH being some sort of inducement to lose one’s faith, or induce lack of reverence to the Eucharist simnply doesn’t hold water.

CITH neither causes a lack of reverence nor induces it. Lack of proper catechetical training does - if one has no idea of what to be reverent about, the method of receiving Communion is not going to make a change.

You are entitled to your opinion, and the fact that you have an opinion contrary to mine does not disturb me nor make me think less of you. And I know enough by this point in my life to know that I am not going to change your opinion.

But your opinion is just that - an opinion. In a court of law, you would not have the better proof or the more consistent and provable facts. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is an all too common logical mistake made when one does little independent research, but rather relies on statement that coincide with one’s opinion.

A perfectly valid reason for receiving CITH is that it is a) an ancient form or reception that is at least as likely how both Christ gave Communion to the Apostles and the Apostles to the disciples as COTT; it has been a valid and consistent method throughout 20 centuries in the Church (and granted, not the Roman rite); it appears that it was practiced in the Roman rite for about 1800 of the 2000 years (as there appears to be evidence that it was practiced to some extent up to about 1000, and the Franciscans for the last 800). I fail to see that we need any other “valid reasons”. Many people find it to be spiritually enriching (e.g. my parish, and the other parishes in my archdiocese with Perpetual Adoration.

We are not ninnies; nor are we flaming liberals, nor Traditionalists. We are Catholics, we follow the Magisterium, and most of us receive CITH.

And I receive both ways.
 
I’d love to use what you taught. Do you have it in writing somewhere?
I used the GIRM, the instructions in the breviary, the Rule of St. Benedict, the Rule of St. Francis, the Didache book on the sacraments. Then I threw in there elements from our own constitutions. I could not find a book that had everything in it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
I don’t give reasons. I explain that the norm is for the universal Roman rite - so, for example, traveling in a foreign country, they may not see CITH at all; I explain what an indult is and that CITH is by indult and that it can be withdrawn; and both methods are demonstrated.

History is not part of the introduction of reception; this is done just before Easter when they will be receiving for the first time.

I have heard over and over again that Paul 6 made the statement. He made more than one statement that I probably disagree with. Given the fact that for the last 800 years CITH didn’t cause loss of faith to the Franciscans, and that for the last 2000 years it didn’t do so in the Eastern rites provides logical grounds for considering that his statement doesn’t seem to be founded on reality so much as a personal opinion (assuming he actually made the statement - I cannot recall ever seeing it sourced). and being made pope doesn’t guarantee that his opinions have merit.

The short of it is that a small group of people really don’t like CITH and keep focusing on it, and blaming it for what is actually due to lack of catechesis. It is simply one more post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument that has not proof to it other than the fact that the occurances appear in the same general historical vicinity.

I have said it I am sure to the point of ad nauseum to some: the great majority of my parish receives CITH; we have a vibrant social ministry, have built the first Catholic grade school in 40 years in the diocese, have only the OF, and also have had Perpetual Adoration 24/7/363 for more than 15 years; one ordained, another who entered seminary for several years, and one sister who joined a habit wearing missionary group. maybe two vocations and a 3rd one giving a long look is no great shakes. But the bit about CITH being some sort of inducement to lose one’s faith, or induce lack of reverence to the Eucharist simnply doesn’t hold water.

CITH neither causes a lack of reverence nor induces it. Lack of proper catechetical training does - if one has no idea of what to be reverent about, the method of receiving Communion is not going to make a change.

You are entitled to your opinion, and the fact that you have an opinion contrary to mine does not disturb me nor make me think less of you. And I know enough by this point in my life to know that I am not going to change your opinion.

But your opinion is just that - an opinion. In a court of law, you would not have the better proof or the more consistent and provable facts. Post hoc ergo propter hoc is an all too common logical mistake made when one does little independent research, but rather relies on statement that coincide with one’s opinion.

A perfectly valid reason for receiving CITH is that it is a) an ancient form or reception that is at least as likely how both Christ gave Communion to the Apostles and the Apostles to the disciples as COTT; it has been a valid and consistent method throughout 20 centuries in the Church (and granted, not the Roman rite); it appears that it was practiced in the Roman rite for about 1800 of the 2000 years (as there appears to be evidence that it was practiced to some extent up to about 1000, and the Franciscans for the last 800). I fail to see that we need any other “valid reasons”. Many people find it to be spiritually enriching (e.g. my parish, and the other parishes in my archdiocese with Perpetual Adoration.

We are not ninnies; nor are we flaming liberals, nor Traditionalists. We are Catholics, we follow the Magisterium, and most of us receive CITH.

And I receive both ways.
:clapping::clapping::clapping:

Very well said!!! 👍

Thank you!🙂
 
We are not ninnies; nor are we flaming liberals, nor Traditionalists. We are Catholics, we follow the Magisterium, and most of us receive CITH.

And I receive both ways.
And your point?
 
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