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palmas85
Guest
Oh Please , a party analogy? :banghead:
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Walking_Home
Guest
At what point during our Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass are we to party. When heaven and earth come together and we are joined with our Lord.
During the last supper and He fortells His up coming death.
During Our Lords passion, being brutilized on the way to His death.
How about, as Our Lord hangs on the cross dying for us, as a spear is thrust into his side, and we are there next to Our Holy Mother in her grief.
At His resurrection, as we see Our Lords wounds and we know what he had to endure to open the doors to heaven for us.
Lets just have a party, nothing else counts as long as we have His body and blood.
J
Joe_Gloor
Guest
Walking_Home said:
The party is when He rises from the dead, conquering Sin and Death.
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gelsbern
Guest
The ONLY party you can equate the Mass to is a lynching party.
Because during the Mass we aren’t just in the church, we are also there at the foot of the cross while our Lord is being sacrificed for our sins. Through our sins we are the soldiers pounding the nails into his hand and feet. Through our sins, we are the people mocking him, spitting on him and feeding him vinegar when he is thirsty Through our sins we are the ones placing the crown of thorns upon his head which pierces his brow. The sacrifice of the Mass is one of the greatest mircacles, because it is not just happening here and now, it is happening there and then.
I find it hard ot believe anyone want to party or celebrate about what we, through our sins, have done to our Lord while He is being sacrificed right in front of you.
J
Joe_Gloor
Guest
The celebration is for the reason He sacrificed Himself.
If we were all crucified exactly as Christ was it would not atone for the sins of the world, but God’s sacrifice of His only begotten Son was sufficient to do so.
I am celebrating my salvation and God’s love.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Joe Gloor:
Let us just celebrate our salvation. It doesn’t matter what Our Lord Christ had to endure to accomplish it for us.
Lets party, party, party.
Let us just celebrate our salvation. It doesn’t matter what Our Lord Christ had to endure to accomplish it for us.
Lets party, party, party.
J
Joe_Gloor
Guest
Walking_Home said:
John 3:14-18
"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
The Gospel (translate Good News) of the Lord.
J
Joe_Gloor
Guest
Did you not hear this Sunday’s scripture readings?
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Walking_Home
Guest
Joe Gloor:
Quote:
It seems by this, that you are de-emphazing the sacrificial nature of our Holy Mass, and leaning more towards the protestant view that Our Lords sacrifice was a one time event and does not become a reality in each and everyone of our Holy Masses.
Joe Gloor Did you not hear this Sunday’s scripture readings?
Quote:
Thus says the LORD:
Remember not the events of the past,
the things of long ago consider not;
see, I am doing something new!
Now it springs forth, do you not perceive it?
In the desert I make a way,
in the wasteland, rivers.
The people I formed for myself,
that they might announce my praise.
Yet you did not call upon me, O Jacob,
for you grew weary of me, O Israel.
You burdened me with your sins,
and wearied me with your crimes.
It is I, I, who wipe out,
for my own sake, your offenses;
your sins I remember no more.
It seems by this, that you are de-emphazing the sacrificial nature of our Holy Mass, and leaning more towards the protestant view that Our Lords sacrifice was a one time event and does not become a reality in each and everyone of our Holy Masses.
J
Joe_Gloor
Guest
I’m sorry if it seems that way. I am not. I am only speaking about the reason for celebration.
Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross was stunningly horrific in nature and is re-presented at each and every Mass in an unbloody way.
I think it is more ‘protestant’ (particularly Calvinistic) to see only our fallen nature and concentrate on our sins rather than our salvation.
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dljl
Guest
Am I missing something? Both the NO and indult TLM are valid masses. I don’t understand this either/or mentality. Which mass you prefer is a matter of personal preference. I believe the primary issue is the lack of availability of the TLM for most people. How can you realistically make a decision without being able to attend a TLM.
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buffalo
Guest
Have them read this:
The Mass of Vatican II
…Now there should be no argument about the central intent of the Council concerning the liturgy. The Council actually spells out its intent, in paragraph 14 of Sacrosanctum Concilium: “Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations, which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy.” The key words here are “full, conscious, and active participation.” The Latin for “active participation” is actuosa participatio.
I did a little research into previous uses of that expression in papal and other ecclesial documents. The first papal usage was in 1903 by Pope St. Pius X, whose motto was “Omnia Instaurare in Christo” (To restore all things in Christ). He considered himself a pope of renewal. He was elected in August of 1903 and in November, he issued one of the first documents of his pontificate, a motu proprio called Tra Le Solicitudini, that is, “Among the Concerns.” This was a document on the renewal of sacred music. In it, the Holy Father states, “In order that the faithful may more actively participate in the sacred liturgy, let them be once again made to sing Gregorian Chant as a congregation.”
That’s what the term “active participation” meant when it was first used in a papal document. But it had been used ten years earlier in another document, issued by Pius X before he was pope. He was the patriarch of Venice, and the document — as it turns out — was actually written by a Jesuit, with the wonderful name of Angelo dei Santi (“angel of the saints”). Sounds like a fictitious name.
more…
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Walking_Home
Guest
Joe Gloor:
You have change the subject from the sacrificial nature of our Holy Mass to our fallen nature.
It is more “protestant” to concentrate on “salvation” .
It is because our salvation is an ongoing process, that Our Lords one and only sacrifice is made a reality in each and every Mass, so that we may receive His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and strengthen ourselves to continue to work out our salvation.
Without the reality of Our Lords most Holy Sacrifice in each and every Mass, there would be no Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
You have change the subject from the sacrificial nature of our Holy Mass to our fallen nature.
It is more “protestant” to concentrate on “salvation” .
It is because our salvation is an ongoing process, that Our Lords one and only sacrifice is made a reality in each and every Mass, so that we may receive His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and strengthen ourselves to continue to work out our salvation.
Without the reality of Our Lords most Holy Sacrifice in each and every Mass, there would be no Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
J
Joe_Gloor
Guest
Walking_Home said:
Not at all, the point of the sacrifice is our salvation, not to remind us that it is because of our sin that the sacrifice is made necessary, although that is something of which we should always be aware.
mediator-dei
I don’t disagree with you here, I just think it is something to celebrate.
Without Christ’s sacrifice, there would be no salvation.
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mosher
Guest
Very good question. You are correct that they are equally valid and because of that they are equally good. However, the Church has always put a strong emphasis on the idea that what is important is more than just the validity of the Mass. A good example of this is that there are a plethora of Latin and Oriental Rites in the Church. With the advent of the Novus Ordo (or Pauline Mass) it is the first time in the Latin Church that there was an attempt to have a complete uniformity of the Liturgy in all the West. If it were a discussion about just validity the whole Church would only celebrate one liturgy. We could get rid of all the Eastern Liturgies and all Catholics would have to celebrate the Novus Ordo or the West would start celebrating the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. The question must be asked: Why are there different rites and usages in the Church? Then one must ask if modern incarnations of liturgies (such as us Latins and the Maronites (sp?)) are actually more beneficial than their predecessors. So, it is proper that Catholics who care and are interested in the subtleties of the faith would discuss such things in the Liturgy.
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otm
Guest
Tghe issue was participation, not party. You don’t like the analogy? I didn’t make it for you to like, but for you to answer.
Most people on being asked about the individual’s participation, would say that they are not participating.
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otm
Guest
Walking_Home said:
If you can not answer the question asked in the analogy, it is probably because you are distracted by side issues and unable to focus on the question.
The issue was not about a party. the issue was about participation. Go back and read my post, I think you will get it. If you don’t, let me know and I will explain it differently.
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gelsbern
Guest
Let’s try this one for an anology, and it probably isn’t a good one either.
You have committed murder and are sentenced to death. Your brother loves you so much that he has agreed to take on your punishment in the electric chair. There is nothing you can do to stop the execution and you must be there when they pull the switch. How would you participate?
When we are at Mass, we are there at the crucifixion of our Lord. Through the miracle, all faithful people who are at the Eucharist, past, present and future are there when our Lord is sacrificed for our sins.
You have committed murder and are sentenced to death. Your brother loves you so much that he has agreed to take on your punishment in the electric chair. There is nothing you can do to stop the execution and you must be there when they pull the switch. How would you participate?
When we are at Mass, we are there at the crucifixion of our Lord. Through the miracle, all faithful people who are at the Eucharist, past, present and future are there when our Lord is sacrificed for our sins.
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otm
Guest
Did you actually read the post, or did you just get part way through and fire this off? Or perhaps you think I can’t figure out what the Mass is about?
The original post was about whether or not for the most part, people were praying during the Mass pre Vatican 2. The posts have gone around about the issue of people saying the Rosary or other devotions during Mass, or simply showing up wtih no understanding of latin and no Missal, and what constitutes participation.
With that in mind, please go back and read the post and see if you can answer the question asked therein.
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gelsbern
Guest
Yes I read it, I read it a few times. But I was not responding to the OP, I was responding to a reply in hopes that it would also fit the OP.
Just because someone isn’t clapping during the Gloria, or shaking hands with everyone around them, or holding their hands up like they are checking for rain during the Our Father, doesnt mean they are not participating, and in my opinion, those who are somber and show reverence and are offering their prayers to God along with the prayers of the priest, and the prayers of the Virgin Mary as she did when she was witnessing the suffering of her son, are behaving in a proper manner for what is taking place at the altar.
We are not invited to a party, we are invited to a sacrifice. At TLM Mass I know of no one who goes and reads magazines, or ignores what’s going on. They are there, showing reverence and offering up their prayers along with the priest in what is taking place. Be it saying the Rosary, praying novenas, or following along in the Missal and yes, that is participating.
Just because someone isn’t clapping during the Gloria, or shaking hands with everyone around them, or holding their hands up like they are checking for rain during the Our Father, doesnt mean they are not participating, and in my opinion, those who are somber and show reverence and are offering their prayers to God along with the prayers of the priest, and the prayers of the Virgin Mary as she did when she was witnessing the suffering of her son, are behaving in a proper manner for what is taking place at the altar.
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