Not "participating" in Tridentine?

[otm]

gelsbern:

Yes I read it, I read it a few times. But I was not responding to the OP, I was responding to a reply in hopes that it would also fit the OP.

We are not invited to a party, we are invited to a sacrifice. At TLM Mass I know of no one who goes and reads magazines, or ignores what’s going on. They are there, showing reverence and offering up their prayers along with the priest in what is taking place. Be it saying the Rosary, praying novenas, or following along in the Missal and yes, that is participating.

Just because someone isn’t clapping during the Gloria, or shaking hands with everyone around them, or holding their hands up like they are checking for rain during the Our Father, doesnt mean they are not participating, and in my opinion, those who are somber and show reverence and are offering their prayers to God along with the prayers of the priest, and the prayers of the Virgin Mary as she did when she was witnessing the suffering of her son, are behaving in a proper manner for what is taking place at the altar.

You know, I tried to make a very simple analogy about participation. The fact that the analogy was bout a party had absolutely nothing to do with the Mass, other than the simple issue of participation.

Someone was saying essentially that you could participate if you showed up and your heart and mind was in the right place - id est, you were participating in the Mass if you showed up and you really loved Jesus. Now, I suspect that if you read the whole post - go to a party of someone you love, pick up a magazine and go off in a corner and get lost in reading the magazine - would you be participating in the party? you were physically present, but had no awareness of what was going on around you.

I don’t care if someone is clapping during the Gloria or not clapping. That is irrelevant to the question.

The original post asked the question of whether or not the congregation was participating in the pre V2 Mass; the essence of the question was about coming to Mass and then practicing some private devotion.

The OP question was not about the TLM today and today’s participants.

My analogy had nothing to do with sacrifice or no sacrifice, clapping or not clapping at the Gloria.

Given that Rome has in the past specifically spoken to the fact that private devotional prayers are not appropriate during the Mass, it amazes me that we are even discussing this. And to anyone who thinks that private devotional prayer during Mass pre V2 wasn’t a very common and widespread practice, well, guess what. It was. m Which is why the Church has taken pains to get people to understand that the Mass is not something that is done to us, but something we do along with the priest; we as laity make the offering too. No, we don’t consecrate, and I don’t personally know anyone who has ever said that, so let’s not go down that path.

 

[gelsbern]

Whew, you must type about 150 words a minute.

The original post asked the question of whether or not the congregation was participating in the pre V2 Mass; the essence of the question was about coming to Mass and then practicing some private devotion.

To answer that question if you were offering your prayers up along with the priests. Yes you were participating in the Mass. I know a lot of pre VII people and they all agreed, and many of them now continue the practice.

Given that Rome has in the past specifically spoken to the fact that private devotional prayers are not appropriate during the Mass, it amazes me that we are even discussing this.

I would be interested in reading this, do you by any chance have any links to said statements. You have piqued my curiosity now.

 

[Podo2005]

PioMagnus:

Hey Guys,

In my Sacred Music History class, my teacher had the following True or False question on the most recent quiz:

“It is valid to say that although the congregation were praying during Mass, for the most part they were not really ‘participating’ in the liturgy”

I answered false.

I got the question wrong.

It seems to me (and I am definately willing to accept correction if I am wrong) that it is theologically unsound to say that the people were not participating.

So, here are my questions:

What exactly constitutes participation?

is it “Valid” to say they were not really participating?

Praying is participation, but it depends on how you look at it. If a persons to mass, and the whole mass says the rosary or just prays by his/her self while the mass is going, that is not participation. If the person prays along with the community then it is participation

Podo

 

[Podo2005]

PioMagnus:

Hey Guys,

In my Sacred Music History class, my teacher had the following True or False question on the most recent quiz:

“It is valid to say that although the congregation were praying during Mass, for the most part they were not really ‘participating’ in the liturgy”

I answered false.

I got the question wrong.

It seems to me (and I am definately willing to accept correction if I am wrong) that it is theologically unsound to say that the people were not participating.

So, here are my questions:

What exactly constitutes participation?

is it “Valid” to say they were not really participating?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Podo2005:

Praying is participation, but it depends on how you look at it. If a persons to mass, and the whole mass says the rosary or just prays by his/her self while the mass is going, that is not participation. If the person prays along with the community then it is participation

Podo

If a person mouths dreary vulgar translations by rote, with no consciousness of what they are saying, that is not participation.

 

[arieh0310]

This article specifically addresses music, but I think that the comments are germane to the argument:

Isn’t it a contradiction to expect Gregorian chant and polyphonic choral music at Mass and at the same time to demand active participation on the part of the congregation?

Fr. Pasley: Well, it depends on what you mean by active participation. The words of the Council have come into English as “active participation”, but the [Latin] words are participatio actuosa or “actual participation”. When they talk about that, they really are reflecting the mentality of Pius XII as expressed in his encyclical on the liturgy, Mediator Dei [1947]. Mediator Dei says that during the Mass there must be participation of the people, that they’re not just passive spectators. That participation, though, is primarily internal and secondarily external.

Even in the traditional Mass there are parts that the people could sing: for instance, the Kyrie. It’s Greek, it’s very simple: “Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy.” There would be nothing for them learn. Then the Sanctus: after a few times they would know what the Latin words mean. The same with the Agnus Dei. Perhaps the Gloria and the Creed would be a little difficult for them to understand at first, but there are two aspects to this:

First of all, even in the most recent General Instruction on the Roman Missal, the “GIRM” of 2000, it states that the choir alone may sing the Gloria and the Creed. (I might add, it says that the Creed should be “sung or said” – note the priority.) The choir can sing the long Latin text, while the people can have a refrain. That’s an instance of external participation. But more importantly, if the people in the pews have a translation next to the Latin, they can sit there and meditate on those words while the choir – the experts – are singing them. Most people don’t have good singing voices and feel funny singing. Oh, they might sing a hymn that they’re familiar with, with the support of the organ. But true active participation occurs when they’re meditating, using their sense of hearing to listen, their sense of sight in reading, when they’re conjoining themselves with the cantors who are trained to sing, when they’re lifting their hearts up to God, so that the result is not constant activity, but actual participation.

 

[mosher]

otm:

Tghe issue was participation, not party. You don’t like the analogy? I didn’t make it for you to like, but for you to answer.

Most people on being asked about the individual’s participation, would say that they are not participating.

Then as I said earlier it is not a matter that is coterminus with the mass but rather it is a problem with catechesis.

 

[palmas85]

otm:

Tghe issue was participation, not party. You don’t like the analogy? I didn’t make it for you to like, but for you to answer.

Most people on being asked about the individual’s participation, would say that they are not participating.

OK since the book, missal, that I am reading at this “party” mass, is the same one that the party thrower, priest is reading, and since both he and I are reading the same thing, and saying the same prayers, the only difference in our level in participation is that he is actually presenting the sacrifice.

Sounds like a pretty fair level of participation to me.

 

[Joe_Gloor]

Dr. Bombay:

If a person mouths dreary vulgar translations by rote, with no consciousness of what they are saying, that is not participation.

So your point is that it is possible not to participate in either Mass.
No argument there.
90% of 1.2 Billion = 1.08 Billion - That’s a lot of Non-Traditionalists

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Joe Gloor:

So your point is that it is possible not to participate in either Mass.
No argument there.
90% of 1.2 Billion = 1.08 Billion - That’s a lot of Non-Traditionalists

Oh, Joe. Please don’t confuse me with more math. You’re likely to attract the Aussie with his algebraic equations, and none of us want that. :nope:

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Dr. Bombay:

Oh, Joe. Please don’t confuse me with more math. You’re likely to attract the Aussie with his algebraic equations, and none of us want that. :nope:

Why not allow the math? The truth will set you free, Herr Doktor. (I caught a WWII flick tonight, hence the German.)

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Andreas Hofer:

Why not allow the math? The truth will set you free, Herr Doktor. (I caught a WWII flick tonight, hence the German.)

Yes, but it’s the peculiar branch of Australian mathematics that I’m hoping to avoid. They apparantly have an entirely different way of handling decimal points south of the equator.

 

[Joe_Gloor]

Dr. Bombay:

Yes, but it’s the peculiar branch of Australian mathematics that I’m hoping to avoid. They apparantly have an entirely different way of handling decimal points south of the equator.

What do you expect, Doc? They’re upside-down!

 

[Irish_Apologist]

I often here the same thing about not “participating” in the Solemn High Mass and well, As someone who attends The Latin Mass I most surely participate. I am praying with the Priest, and the Priest with and for me, and all the Church Triumphant is praying with us…

A Novus Ordo friend of mine and I discuss this topic every time we are around each other. She was raised in the Pre Vatican II days and was brought up WITH the Latin Mass. She, like alot of poorly catechized individuals always says that, “We didn’t know what was going on.” (Ever heard of a Missal?) “The Priest had his back to us.” (As if the Holy Mass was centered around you. Pretty vain comment) “The laity were mere spectators.” (Then you completely have no understanding of what is truly going on at Mass)…et.c etc.

I would argue that rather than “participate” alot of lay faithful that attend the Novus Ordo Mass have “usurped” or outright taken over the Liturgy. I mean, all one has to do is attend a Novus Ordo Mass here in the US and look at how many people seem to have invented their own rubrics. Participation is one thing but when we celebrate the holy mass according to St. (insert your name here) that’s a bit much…

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I’m sorry if it seems that way. I am not. I am only speaking about the reason for celebration.
Jesus’s sacrifice on the cross was stunningly horrific in nature and is re-presented at each and every Mass in an unbloody way.
I think it is more ‘protestant’ (particularly Calvinistic) to see only our fallen nature and concentrate on our sins rather than our salvation.

You have salvation? How did you get that, then? I wish I had salvation!

I am Redeemed, not Saved. There is a difference. I am not celebrating salvation because I can still, in my life, fail to attain it, or even lose it. Therefore, at Mass, we celebrate our Redemption.

Any guesses at what the moment of Redemption was? (I’ll give you a hint: it wasn’t the Resurrection).

Another thing, forgive me for nitpicking: there is no re-presentation. It is a perpetuation. It is made present for us in union with the sacrifices at the Last Supper and on the Rood. It is the same sacrifice, carried through the ages unto all men by way of the Mass.

Having debated a Baptist on the Mass, I can say that you make their argument for them if you say it is a re-presentation (the “Once for all” argument), when it is not in reality.