Not providing medical treatment when it could help?

[BillP]

The answer is right there in the bishops usual cryptic language, but at least they got it right.

*“Euthanasia is an action **or omission ***that **of itself **or by intention causes death in order to alleviate suffering. Catholic health care institutions may never condone or participate in euthanasia or assisted suicide in any way. Dying patients who request euthanasia should receive loving care, psychological and spiritual support, and appropriate remedies for pain and other symptoms so that they can live with dignity until the time of natural death.42”

Gerard,

I suspect from the tone of your previous posts that you are construing the definition of Euthanasia much more strictly than either the Bishops intended or Catholic Health Care providers do in practice.

I don’t think, for example, that any Catholic hospital would force the woman in question (or her family) to accept treatment for her pneumonia.

 

[system]

This is not new age anything – this is how it has always been - it is how God has made us.

Then you’ll be able to find sources for that quite quickly

If she is unwilling or unable to do the job you may be best help to her by getting her to turn the authority over to one of the others who is willing and able.

The others chose her as POA…probably because they expect her to go along with them no matter what.

As for your statement regarding ‘knowing’ her better than any of us here you have not stated that she shares your ‘gut reaction’ or objects in any way to her sister’s recommended course of action.

She shares my gut reaction and objects to her sister’s recommended course of action.

At the moment, her fear is slightly greater than her courage.

 

[GerardP]

I am unsure of your religious beliefs, but the Catholic church does not consider heart transplants “not morally licit”. I believe we were discussing the perspective of the Catholic Church on this issue although I do appreciate you enlightening us about your religious tradition.

Unfortunately (for you) you are wrong about what you think the Catholic Church teaches.

aktion-leben.de/Organspende/sld03.htm#Brain%20Death

"The Holy Father makes a critical restriction on the removal of organs in light of “the unique dignity of the human person,” stipulating that “**vital organs which occur singly in the body can be removed only after death, that is from the body from someone who is certainly dead.” **(4) He goes on to add that “the requirement is self-evident, since to act otherwise would mean intentionally to cause the death of the donor in disposing of his organs.” (4)

For vital organs to be suitable for transplantation, however, they must be living organs removed from living human beings. Moreover, as noted above, persons condemned to death as “brain dead” are not “certainly dead” but, to the contrary, are certainly alive.

No, I am asking whether or not you would procure a heart or liver transplant for this poor women if it would keep her alive for some further period of time?

No. I wouldn’t kill someone to provide their heart to someone else as guided by the Church’s consistent position on life issues. A full liver would be the same situation with an exception for part of a liver that would be non-lethal to the donor.

 

[GerardP]

Gerard, I suspect from the tone of your previous posts that you are construing the definition of Euthanasia much more strictly than either the Bishops intended or Catholic Health Care providers do in practice.

I don’t think, for example, that any Catholic hospital would force the woman in question (or her family) to accept treatment for her pneumonia.

My definition of Euthanasia is right in line with Pope John Paul II’s.definition. It is harmonious with the USCCB’s position. (miraculously!)

What I haven’t done is extend “extroardinary means” to include basic medicine.

Having worked at a Catholic Hospital, I know that Catholic Hospitals often don’t engage in practices that are in line with Catholic teaching.

 

[BillP]

Gerard,

I’m not familiar with the provenance of your website (I don’t read German very well) but it doesn’t appear to be part of the Magesterium, at least I could find no evidence that it was.

In contrast, the USCCB says

The determination of death should be made by the physician or competent medical authority in accordance with responsible and commonly accepted scientific criteria.

And “responsible and commonly accepted scientific criteria” include brain death despite the presence of cardiac activity. So your assertion all heart donations are illicit is not only not in line with Catholic teaching but absurd on the face of it.

 

[Linnyo]

As an inlaw you don’t share the same kind of connection to the woman as the children do.

Sometimes we are gifted with the knowledge it is someone’s time and act on it.

There are times some fight the message and cling to the ‘do everything possible so we can have a little more time’.

Your wife and her siblings may, on some level, know what is the right choice to make. Your wife is in a position to effect change of treatment. If she is not doing that she may know more than you do about God’s will in this.

He is her husband. This means they are as one. When she married him, she left her family and bacame one with him. He is not ‘just an in-law’.

I think if you spoke to her doctors they would be able to tell you what the ‘ordinary’ treatment is for somebody like your wife and then you would be able to make a better informed decision as to what would be best for her. Either way, it will be a very difficult decision and you will probably continue to worry that you are doing the right thing. I have never been in the position to have to make a decision like that but, I can, nevertheless, pray for you.

Lord God, I thankyou for Max and for the love he has for his wife. I pray that he will have the strength to make the right healthcare decisions for his wife. Lord I thankyou that you are a lifegiving God who loves and cares for us all.
Hail Mary, Full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[system]

I’m sorry that you were offended by my post. It certainly wasn’t my intent to be sarcastic or uncharitable, as I attempted to clarify in a later post.

Since you claim to be looking for the Church’s position, here is something from the Conference of Catholic Bishops that is, I believe on point:

usccb.org/bishops/directives.shtml#partfive

Yes, " I CLAIMED" to be looking for the church’s position:shrug:
(Couldn’t get any help over at Euthanasia.com !)

Thanks for providing it. Unfortunately the first 4 are right out due to the patient being unable to make the decision. I guess they are going to have come up with more than this.

Thanks. It’s a difficult time. To run into such strong opposition has really surprised me. Only in a fallen world can a person be attacked for trying to save a life. (I know, you CLAIM it would only prolong her death.)

 

[Eilish_Maura]

The others chose her as POA…probably because they expect her to go along with them no matter what.

She shares my gut reaction and objects to her sister’s recommended course of action.

At the moment, her fear is slightly greater than her courage.

She may also be hesitating because on some level she knows the sister is correct.

 

[KathleenElsie]

That’s what I thought, too. And yet, I figured I would come to CAF and present the situation, because I figured I would get some wisdom and church teaching on the matter.

It’s seems pro-life here just means anti-abortion, and the old are a different class. Well I for one am pro-life and think that protection for the infirm and elderly must also be a priority. Now that being siad their are times when it is better to treat conditions out-side of the hospital setting. The hospital is not a healthy place to be.

Pnuemonia was definitely a “natural death” a 100 years ago, and it still can be. But she is living proof that pneumonia can be treated successfully at a late age. I just have a gut feeling that they (the adult children) have lost the all endurance and will to see any more suffering. I walked out of my mothers nursing home room yesterday crying. She beggs to come home (my aunt has POA) and gets angry when I don’t take her with me. Yet she needs full time help for her daily activity and her safety. If we could afford to provide private care we would but we don’t have that option. Yet, I can also understand being tired and needing a rest.

And yet, allowing this to happen without treatment, will actually cause suffering. (and death) Are you sure they are not giving her meds for the infection?

And - (disclaimer) I don’t mean to sound judgemental of them either. My immediate family has been facing a long term illness and suffering of my dad, but not as long as this family has watched this.

 

[Newbie2]

So use of antibiotics could be extraordinary on several of the criteria, “reasonable hope of benefit”, or “excessive burden”.

In the situation posed by the OP, it seems that there is an elderly woman who would likely respond well to a course of antibiotics and possible bronchodilators, neither or which are (usually) prohibitively expensive or pose signigicant risks of side effects.

Yes, so I have to wonder too, if there seems to be a reasonable chance of success, and if the woman would likely die from non-treatment, this would appear, at least on the surface, to be sort of a “euthanasia by neglect” situation, no?

 

[Eilish_Maura]

In the situation posed by the OP, it seems that there is an elderly woman who would likely respond well to a course of antibiotics and possible bronchodilators, neither or which are (usually) prohibitively expensive or pose signigicant risks of side effects.

Yes, so I have to wonder too, if there seems to be a reasonable chance of success, and if the woman would likely die from non-treatment, this would appear, at least on the surface, to be sort of a “euthanasia by neglect” situation, no?

A friend of mine, a priest in LI NY, had to deal with being the one in charge of his grandmother’s care.

A point came when she developed what would be seen by most a simple problem - much like this pneumonia situation.

He told me he considered not having it treated but could not bear her dying ‘just yet’ (I think she had AD and was going into the closing stages). He went against his original intention and had her treated and she recovered.

Actually she lingered. For several years he regretted not going with his first inclination - that it was her time to go and he should have opted to let the ‘minor’ infection run its course.

In the end he was happy when she finally died, not only because it was a relief from the stress of having her so close to ‘dying’ for so long but because the mistake he made (in opting for her to have treatment earlier) was corrected.

 

[GerardP]

A friend of mine, a priest in LI NY, had to deal with being the one in charge of his grandmother’s care.

A point came when she developed what would be seen by most a simple problem - much like this pneumonia situation.

He told me he considered not having it treated but could not bear her dying ‘just yet’ (I think she had AD and was going into the closing stages). He went against his original intention and had her treated and she recovered.

Actually she lingered. For several years he regretted not going with his first inclination - that it was her time to go and he should have opted to let the ‘minor’ infection run its course.

In the end he was happy when she finally died, not only because it was a relief from the stress of having her so close to ‘dying’ for so long but because the mistake he made (in opting for her to have treatment earlier) was corrected.

What a horrible tale. I hope this man is no longer active in any kind of ministry. I hear stories like that and I’m constantly amazed at the madness of the culture of death that has invaded the Church.

It’s all about him and what he “can bear.” He regrets not letting her die from a minor problem? He was happy because it was a “relief from the stress…”?

Who is he to determine when “her time” is?

Taking his own logic into account, he sounds miserable and maybe societal norms will decide that he should be put out of his misery. Too many people “can’t bear” to see someone so weak have to deal with such horrible situations in life. Maybe when he’s got a “minor problem” and people don’t recognize his inherent dignity as a human being created in the image and likeness of God, he’ll think differently.

If he’s lucky, God will allow him to endure purgatory in this life instead of the next (if he warrants salvation)

Perhaps he will have a painful death in order to attain paradise. Woe to the person who becomes an obstacle to God’s will.

 

[GerardP]

She may also be hesitating because on some level she knows the sister is correct.

That would only be true if the sister were correct. But she’s not.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

That would only be true if the sister were correct. But she’s not.

We, here on this board, do not know that for certain.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

What a horrible tale. I hope this man is no longer active in any kind of ministry. I hear stories like that and I’m constantly amazed at the madness of the culture of death that has invaded the Church.

It’s all about him and what he “can bear.” He regrets not letting her die from a minor problem? He was happy because it was a “relief from the stress…”?

Who is he to determine when “her time” is?

Taking his own logic into account, he sounds miserable and maybe societal norms will decide that he should be put out of his misery. Too many people “can’t bear” to see someone so weak have to deal with such horrible situations in life. Maybe when he’s got a “minor problem” and people don’t recognize his inherent dignity as a human being created in the image and likeness of God, he’ll think differently.

If he’s lucky, God will allow him to endure purgatory in this life instead of the next (if he warrants salvation)

Perhaps he will have a painful death in order to attain paradise. Woe to the person who becomes an obstacle to God’s will.

We often know when the ‘time’ of a loved one approaches – at least if one is honest and has dealt with death in the family before.

My friend is a wonderful priest and this made him grow and separate from the selfish side that had him act in a way that kept her suffering in general much longer.

There are times these are the right choices - whether made by the individual themselves or their legal guardian. God has blessed him and his ministry greatly in the years since her death - and you know what they say about ‘the fruits’.

 

[GerardP]

Gerard,

I’m not familiar with the provenance of your website (I don’t read German very well) but it doesn’t appear to be part of the Magesterium, at least I could find no evidence that it was.

Scroll down on the website and it is written in English. It was an article signed by Bishop Bruskewitz among others and based on magisterial teaching and some of John Paul II’s best work. (as much as I disagree with him on policy issues, he can never be faulted for not being a champion of the weak and the helpless.)

In contrast, the USCCB says

And “responsible and commonly accepted scientific criteria” include brain death despite the presence of cardiac activity. So your assertion all heart donations are illicit is not only not in line with Catholic teaching but absurd on the face of…

Once again, we see the modernist agenda at work where “scientism” reigns over doctrine.

Souls don’t leave brains. They leave bodies.

As of 2006 Pope Benedict has reopened the case on “Brain death” and absolutely irresponsible term in and of itself.

One of John Paul II’s clearest statements was “A man no matter what the state of his brain will never be a vegetable.”

It’s absolutely appalling to see this Frankenstein mentality run amok.

The cult of man as the decision maker on the value of life and the death of his fellow man is an affront to God and a desecration of His creation.

 

[GerardP]

We often know when the ‘time’ of a loved one approaches – at least if one is honest and has dealt with death in the family before.

Dealing with death is one thing, dealing out death is another.

My friend is a wonderful priest and this made him grow and separate from the selfish side that had him act in a way that kept her suffering in general much longer.

He needs to grow quite a bit more. It could very well be that she was suffering for his soul. He obviously has no conception of what the purpose of suffering is from a Catholic perspective.

There are times these are the right choices - whether made by the individual themselves or their legal guardian. God has blessed him and his ministry greatly in the years since her death - and you know what they say about ‘the fruits’.

Odds are, it’s a bad fruit. It may be popular but the worst things often are. God could also be setting him up for a major fall.

“Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. But if thy enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink. For, doing this, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head.”

 

[GerardP]

He is her husband. This means they are as one. When she married him, she left her family and bacame one with him. He is not ‘just an in-law’.

I think if you spoke to her doctors they would be able to tell you what the ‘ordinary’ treatment is for somebody like your wife and then you would be able to make a better informed decision as to what would be best for her. Either way, it will be a very difficult decision and you will probably continue to worry that you are doing the right thing. I have never been in the position to have to make a decision like that but, I can, nevertheless, pray for you.

Lord God, I thankyou for Max and for the love he has for his wife. I pray that he will have the strength to make the right healthcare decisions for his wife. Lord I thankyou that you are a lifegiving God who loves and cares for us all.
Hail Mary, Full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

 

[wabrams]

Something no one has mentioned: the OP said this is the 3rd or 4th time recently she has had pneumonia. Chronic pneumonia, esp. in the elderly, is a sign of an immune system in decline. This could be nature’s way of letting you know her body is slowly shutting down. If you let nature take its course, and not depriving her of food and water, then I fail to see how this is euthanasia.

 

[JRKH]

There is so much anger bottled up in me right now over the callous posts here that I must simply withdraw from this “thing”.

Each family must deal with these situations in the best way they know how.
Hopefully this includes being guided by their prayers and the HS along with their pastor and other family members.

I hope none of you have to deal with what we did with my Dad - and now with my Dear Beautiful Wife.

If you ever do, may God give you more merciful hearts than you have displayed here.

Peace
James