Not providing medical treatment when it could help?

[Eilish_Maura]

Dealing with death is one thing, dealing out death is another.

He needs to grow quite a bit more. It could very well be that she was suffering for his soul. He obviously has no conception of what the purpose of suffering is from a Catholic perspective.

Odds are, it’s a bad fruit. It may be popular but the worst things often are. God could also be setting him up for a major fall.

“Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. But if thy enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink. For, doing this, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head.”

What is obvious is you prefer to damn a person you do not know for doing what turned out to be the right thing (given the test of the ‘fruits’) on the barest information. May God forgive you for spreading gossip and libeling a good priest this way.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

There is so much anger bottled up in me right now over the callous posts here that I must simply withdraw from this “thing”.

Each family must deal with these situations in the best way they know how.
Hopefully this includes being guided by their prayers and the HS along with their pastor and other family members.

I hope none of you have to deal with what we did with my Dad - and now with my Dear Beautiful Wife.

If you ever do, may God give you more merciful hearts than you have displayed here.

Peace
James

​

 

[DVIN_CKS]

I think a lot of this boils down to what is the daughter’s motive for withholding antibiotics from the patient? If it is simply to speed up her death, then this is wrong. If it is to unburden her from caring for the patient, then that is also wrong. Are the patient’s best interests being served? Even if that means those caring for her must suffer.

My father-in-law who is in the late stages of AD recently was hospitalized because of pneumonia. His pneumonia was successfully treated with antibiotics. He only required an IV. This was not “extraordinary” care IMHO.

What should be considered basic, ordinary care? Why do so many people NOT want to provide the basics? Is it easier to say “just let nature take its course”? I don’t think it is ever an easy thing to watch a loved one die. It is also never easy to keep second guessing ourselves. I would err on the side of caution. I would provide the treatment necessary and I would make sure the patient was properly hydrated and given nutrients. The only exception would be if the doctor told me that by providing this basic care, I would be inflicting physical harm to the patient.

It’s not about pro longing a life or hastening death. It’s about caring and loving the patient until the final hour. Since no one knows when that hour will come, we must do what we can by providing ordinary means of care.

 

[system]

**Your honor - I would like this person to be declared a hostile witness: **

Do you have exactly the same information the family of this woman? Do you know all the details and what has gone into this decision?

So you wife should be taking up this or making appropriate changes to the plan not to treat.

As an inlaw you don’t share the same kind of connection to the woman as the children do.

Sometimes we are gifted with the knowledge it is someone’s time and act on it.

There are times some fight the message and cling to the ‘do everything possible so we can have a little more time’.

Your wife and her siblings may, on some level, know what is the right choice to make. Your wife is in a position to effect change of treatment. If she is not doing that she may know more than you do about God’s will in this.

This is not new age anything – this is how it has always been - it is how God has made us.

If she is unwilling or unable to do the job you may be best help to her by getting her to turn the authority over to one of the others who is willing and able.

As for your statement regarding ‘knowing’ her better than any of us here you have not stated that she shares your ‘gut reaction’ or objects in any way to her sister’s recommended course of action.

Love the quotes! - No - YOU know my wife better!

She may also be hesitating because on some level she knows the sister is correct.

We often know when the ‘time’ of a loved one approaches – at least if one is honest and has dealt with death in the family before.

No offense, but every one of your comments seems intent on shortening this person’s life

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Max – unless asked you have spoken mostly about YOUR gut feeling etc.

You have actually said very little re your wife or what she thinks (being the person technically ‘in control’ in this situation).

So since this has really been about you and your view of what should be done - what will you do if your wife sides with her sister and does not push to have MIL treated?

 

[GerardP]

What is obvious is you prefer to damn a person you do not know for doing what turned out to be the right thing (given the test of the ‘fruits’) on the barest information.

This is calumny on your part. Either that or you don’t know how to read something correctly. I didn’t damn anyone.

From your description and based on that alone. You didn’t describe anything of a person demonstrating a Catholic attitude but rather a false sense of sympathy condemned by the Church.

As far as ‘fruits’ go regarding his “ministry” how do you know they are good fruits? What measure of orthodoxy are you using to determine whether these are the fruits of Divine grace or stones instead of bread?

May God forgive you for spreading gossip and libeling a good priest this way.

May God spare us from people that don’t know the meaning of the words they use! What gossip? I don’t even know the names of the people you were referring to? How in any cognitively distorted fashion can someone libel someone without identifying them?

 

[system]

I think a lot of this boils down to what is the daughter’s motive for withholding antibiotics from the patient? If it is simply to speed up her death, then this is wrong. If it is to unburden her from caring for the patient, then that is also wrong. Are the patient’s best interests being served? Even if that means those caring for her must suffer.

My father-in-law who is in the late stages of AD recently was hospitalized because of pneumonia. His pneumonia was successfully treated with antibiotics. He only required an IV. This was not “extraordinary” care IMHO.

What should be considered basic, ordinary care? Why do so many people NOT want to provide the basics? Is it easier to say “just let nature take its course”? I don’t think it is ever an easy thing to watch a loved one die. It is also never easy to keep second guessing ourselves. I would err on the side of caution. I would provide the treatment necessary and I would make sure the patient was properly hydrated and given nutrients. The only exception would be if the doctor told me that by providing this basic care, I would be inflicting physical harm to the patient.

It’s not about pro longing a life or hastening death. It’s about caring and loving the patient until the final hour. Since no one knows when that hour will come, we must do what we can by providing ordinary means of care.

I thought I had answered this and yet it has not shown up?

Take 2: Thank you for the thoughtful and loving post:thumbsup:

---

**And now an update: **

Between the time of starting this thread, and now, the patient has been given plain old ordinary anti-biotics and bronchodilator breathing treatments.

Apparently she responded very well, and showed improvement very quickly. ( I know that this will disappoint some of you)

BTW, this had nothing to do with any words or actions of my wife or me. In fact, we could not contact anyone all day.

In fact the only people that heard my questions, concerns, or rants on this subject were 2 guys at work, and you people here. I did not even discuss all this with my wife. I went to my 2 friends, and you people here, to get on the most solid ground I could before trying to help my wife (and her family) with all of this.

But I see now that this is not only a very touchy and difficult issue, but it seems any guidelines from the church are vague.

100 years ago, there would have been no question - hopefully some folks would gather around for a rosary or two and the person would die at home. Now they can turn things around in less than a day with a few mega drugs.

I don’t have the answers, but, as I said in an earlier post, Terry Schiavo was WAY worse off, and half the country wanted to save her; so why was I getting such opposition in this case?

JP2 struggled through great suffering until his death, and most of the world claimed it was a great example of the sanctity of life - his last gift to the world. In this thread, I heard some opinions that sounded like the opposite of the JP2 example.

 

[system]

Max – unless asked you have spoken mostly about YOUR gut feeling etc.

Like your twice stated “feeling” that some of us “JUST KNOW” claptrap? I asked you to back that up with Christ’s words, or the church’s and you could not. Post 42

You have actually said very little re your wife or what she thinks (being the person technically ‘in control’ in this situation).

Answered in Post 42

So since this has really been about you and your view of what should be done - what will you do if your wife sides with her sister and does not push to have MIL treated?

We spoke of this last night, not that it’s really your business…(are you an aspiring prosecutor? You really should find someone who has done something wrong)

I sat next to her, held her hand, looked her in the eye and said, I will support you in any way I can, but, I will tell you if you are doing something wrong.
(because according to my church, my number one goal as a father and husband is to get my wife and children into heaven - pretty old-fashioned, huh? )

So - Then I came here to find out exactly what my church says on the matter.

 

[GerardP]

“And they gave him wine to drink mingled with gall. And when he had tasted, he would not drink.”

“And immediately one of them running took a sponge, and filled it with vinegar; and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.”

 

[GerardP]

Like your twice stated “feeling” that some of us “JUST KNOW” claptrap? I asked you to back that up with Christ’s words, or the church’s and you could not. Post 42

Found it! Just after Our Lord exhorts us to do the right thing…'feed the hungry…etc… He tells us the consequences of not doing the right thing.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: **sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. **44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, **as long as you did it not **to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Apparently she responded very well, and showed improvement very quickly. ( I know that this will disappoint some of you)

Where did you learn that the Catholic Church teaches us to think the worst about others??

 

[Eilish_Maura]

I don’t have the answers, but, as I said in an earlier post, Terry Schiavo was WAY worse off, and half the country wanted to save her; so why was I getting such opposition in this case?

1. Don’t play a game of one-ups-manship comparing the MIL’s condition to Terry Schiavo’s or anyone else’s - each situation stands on its own particular set of conditions and circumstances.
2. You did not get ‘opposition’ - you did get differing viewpoints based on others applying the Faith to illness and death in their respective families.

May God open your rock hard heart to start to realize this and to keep you from doing yourself and others harm.

 

[DVIN_CKS]

Glad to hear that the patient is responding to treatment – basic treatment that is!

I liked the point made that 100 years ago the family would have no other options than to stand around and pray waiting for death. Now we have medicines that work very effectively and efficiently in clearing up what once would have been considered sure death.

I think the Holy Spirit heard some prayers and touched some hearts. The Church’s teachings can be vague to some and each individual case brings along its own issues to consider. However, I do believe a GENERAL guideline exists and it is simple. Once one understands the difference between “extraordinary” and “ordinary” care the ‘fog’ begins to lift. Also, I think it is important to always examine the motives of those involved making the medical decisions for the patient (if patient isn’t able to make them for themselves). It is amazing how good hearted people can justify withholding basic care to their loved ones on the basis of what they believe to be “the best thing” for everyone.

I"ve heard many times in regards to my FIL that his “quality of life” has been non existent for the past five years or so. Who are we to judge a person’s quality of life? Maybe from where we stand, it seems bleek, but from where God stands, there is great purpose in the sufferings of our loved ones.

I’ll keep the family in my prayers as I watch my FIL approach his hour of death very soon.

 

[system]

May God open your rock hard heart to start to realize this and to keep you from doing yourself and others harm.

Ah yes! The auld Irish Toast

Thanks happy girl!

Here’s one for ye:

May God open your eyes as you read your own posts so that you realize your interrogations are like verbal waterboarding!

Tóg go bog é

 

[JRKH]

OK. I’ve settled down some.
Let’s see if we can put some things into perspective.

THE HUMAN SIDE:
AD is a progressive, and ultimately terminal disease. At present there is absolutely nothing that science can do to stop it. AD, if it proceeds to it’s natural end, causes the body to shut down. It begins with the higher functions and progresses inexorably through to the most basic functions until the patient forgets how to swallow and will starve to death without intervention.
I know. I watched my father go this way, and I will likely be watching my dear lady go the same way in a couple of years.
Even if there is intervention in the form of feeding tubes it is unlikely to last much longer because the body is not processing nutrients properly and eventually the patient simply stops breathing.

Now the ultimate purpose of medical treatment is to retore the body to health. Or at least a reasonable level of health which allows the patient to continue to live their life.
If a person with advanced AD is given treatment for a “curable” disease (in this case pneumonia) what is the expected outcome of the treatment? Is it to increase the patients chance at recovering? Making the patient more comfortable? Is it simply to keep the person alive a bit longer because you cannot accept the end which is already so close?

When one contracts or develops a terminal disease such as AD, we say that God has given this cross to the person and/or family. Medicine has provided us with medications that can mask the symptoms of AD and thus improve the patient’s life for many years, but these medications do not slow the progression of the disease.

There is a point in anyones life where the benefits of medical intervention must be weighed aganst the possible advantage to the patient and the wishes of the patient/family.

Once a person with AD reaches a point where they have virtually ceased to function on anything but the most basic level – breathing, swallowing, excreting, etc. There is no intervention that will improve the person’s life. No medical treatemnt that will restore health, or anything resembling health.

THE SPIRITUAL SIDE:
The goal of each Christian is to “get to heaven”
To do this we wish to serve God on earth until such time as God calls us home.
Now God calls us from this life by two main channels – disease or accident. In either case an agent is placed in our body that causes the body to cease functioning. Since this is God’s doing, who are we to interfere? Yet we do interfere, and the church supports this.
The church recognizes the good works and pure intentions of the medical profession. However, in the most basic sense, we cannot deny that any medical treatment interferes with a God created natural process.

Now if God chooses to give AD to the patient and family as a cross, who are we to say that God hasn’t also given the patient pnemonia to shorten the time of suffering? The fact is we can’t. We can only pray, and ask for guidance from Our Father in heaven. For it is to Him that we must answer, not to our family, or to our society.

So if our goal is to attain heaven after our passing, why should we wish to prolong our lives here? Why should we wish to prolong the suffering of a loved one who might be able go to our lord sooner by our loving inaction.

Yes there are many spiritual pitfalls in this, just as there are in any facet of our Christain life. We must truly pray with a loving heart to discern whether what we do is truly motivated by Love, or by some lesser, temporal desire. In this, the church can be of assistance, but only in the broadest sense, for as I said above, It is to God we must answer for what is an intensely difficult and personal decision.

In each of our lives we will reach a point where we must leave our lives in God’s hands, to do with as He will. (And/or the life of a loved one)
I know that in our own case, my mom did everything for my dad out of the purest Love. She did not place him in a nursing home, but kept him at home and cared for him herself. That means she fed him, changed his diaper and cleaned him up, bathed him, prayed with him, held his hand, and watched him passing away before her eyes every morning-noon and night for years.
She did as she was guided by God, and it was on His strength that we all relied. The family supported her in each of her decisions.

CONCLUSION:
I know that some will take issue with what I have written here, for that I can only say that I will continue to pray for guidance and hope others will do the same.

Regardless of the legal/temporal/moral/spiritual implications of all of this, this thread is a huge testament to having a living will. So that your family will know, in no uncertain terms what your wishes are. (We have ours, plus we discussed these things so I know what DW wishes are.)

To the OP, I hope that God will continue to guide and comfort your family through this trial.

Peace
James

 

[BillP]

Yes, " I CLAIMED" to be looking for the church’s position:shrug:
(Couldn’t get any help over at Euthanasia.com !)

Thanks for providing it. Unfortunately the first 4 are right out due to the patient being unable to make the decision. I guess they are going to have come up with more than this.

Thanks. It’s a difficult time. To run into such strong opposition has really surprised me. Only in a fallen world can a person be attacked for trying to save a life. (I know, you CLAIM it would only prolong her death.)

Are you always this petulant when people disagree with you? Do you always misrepresent other people’s position to make your own look better? Do you always throw bully people, call people names and throw tantrums when others disagree with your interpretations in good faith?

Now your WHINING about being attacked because people disagreed with you AFTER YOU ASKED THEIR OPINION! Give me a break!

I said you “claimed” to want to know about Church teaching because I and a couple of others cited specifics of teachings from those with authority to teach which you either ignored or chose to interpret in ways that supported your positions despite the fact that your interpretation was manifestly opposed to current Catholic practice and mainstream Catholic theology.

 

[DVIN_CKS]

James,
Padre Pio once said “those who suffer greatly, God blesses greatly” – or something along those lines. You are undoubtedly blessed if the suffering you have had to endure so far in your life is any indication.

I can sympathize with you as I watch my FIL die of AD. The doctors say he may not make it through the weekend. He cannot swallow and isn’t taking in any nutrition. He is comfortable and not in pain and is just lying in bed as the family waits for him to take his last breath. I guess it could be questioned if letting “natures take its course” is “speeding up” his death (he is not receiving food and very little amounts of water). I’m not a doctor, nor have I spoken to one so I will not try and determine if artificial feeding and hydration would be of any benefit to him at this point.

At the end, we all need to be at peace with our decisions. Pray for this peace and for the wisdom of the Church to guide us in these end of life matters. God will never hold it against us if we act out of love and our motives are pure. Although sometimes God allows us to suffer – sometimes terribly so – to bring about a greater good. IMHO I will err on the side of life if/when I am ever in a situation to sustain a life in the final stages of a disease. This doesn’t mean I would do anything “extraordinary” to keep the person alive. I would do what I feel is required of us and that is to provide the best I could at meeting the patient’s minimal needs.

 

[system]

OK. I’ve settled down some.
Let’s see if we can put some things into perspective.

THE HUMAN SIDE:
AD is a progressive, and ultimately terminal disease. At present there is absolutely nothing that science can do to stop it. AD, if it proceeds to it’s natural end, causes the body to shut down. It begins with the higher functions and progresses inexorably through to the most basic functions until the patient forgets how to swallow and will starve to death without intervention.
I know. I watched my father go this way, and I will likely be watching my dear lady go the same way in a couple of years.
Even if there is intervention in the form of feeding tubes it is unlikely to last much longer because the body is not processing nutrients properly and eventually the patient simply stops breathing.

Now the ultimate purpose of medical treatment is to retore the body to health. Or at least a reasonable level of health which allows the patient to continue to live their life.
If a person with advanced AD is given treatment for a “curable” disease (in this case pneumonia) what is the expected outcome of the treatment? Is it to increase the patients chance at recovering? Making the patient more comfortable? Is it simply to keep the person alive a bit longer because you cannot accept the end which is already so close?

When one contracts or develops a terminal disease such as AD, we say that God has given this cross to the person and/or family. Medicine has provided us with medications that can mask the symptoms of AD and thus improve the patient’s life for many years, but these medications do not slow the progression of the disease.

There is a point in anyones life where the benefits of medical intervention must be weighed aganst the possible advantage to the patient and the wishes of the patient/family.

Once a person with AD reaches a point where they have virtually ceased to function on anything but the most basic level – breathing, swallowing, excreting, etc. There is no intervention that will improve the person’s life. No medical treatemnt that will restore health, or anything resembling health.

THE SPIRITUAL SIDE:
The goal of each Christian is to “get to heaven”
To do this we wish to serve God on earth until such time as God calls us home.
Now God calls us from this life by two main channels – disease or accident. In either case an agent is placed in our body that causes the body to cease functioning. Since this is God’s doing, who are we to interfere? Yet we do interfere, and the church supports this.
The church recognizes the good works and pure intentions of the medical profession. However, in the most basic sense, we cannot deny that any medical treatment interferes with a God created natural process.

Now if God chooses to give AD to the patient and family as a cross, who are we to say that God hasn’t also given the patient pnemonia to shorten the time of suffering? The fact is we can’t. We can only pray, and ask for guidance from Our Father in heaven. For it is to Him that we must answer, not to our family, or to our society.

So if our goal is to attain heaven after our passing, why should we wish to prolong our lives here? Why should we wish to prolong the suffering of a loved one who might be able go to our lord sooner by our loving inaction.

Yes there are many spiritual pitfalls in this, just as there are in any facet of our Christain life. We must truly pray with a loving heart to discern whether what we do is truly motivated by Love, or by some lesser, temporal desire. In this, the church can be of assistance, but only in the broadest sense, for as I said above, It is to God we must answer for what is an intensely difficult and personal decision.

In each of our lives we will reach a point where we must leave our lives in God’s hands, to do with as He will. (And/or the life of a loved one)
I know that in our own case, my mom did everything for my dad out of the purest Love. She did not place him in a nursing home, but kept him at home and cared for him herself. That means she fed him, changed his diaper and cleaned him up, bathed him, prayed with him, held his hand, and watched him passing away before her eyes every morning-noon and night for years.
She did as she was guided by God, and it was on His strength that we all relied. The family supported her in each of her decisions.

CONCLUSION:
I know that some will take issue with what I have written here, for that I can only say that I will continue to pray for guidance and hope others will do the same.

Regardless of the legal/temporal/moral/spiritual implications of all of this, this thread is a huge testament to having a living will. So that your family will know, in no uncertain terms what your wishes are. (We have ours, plus we discussed these things so I know what DW wishes are.)

To the OP, I hope that God will continue to guide and comfort your family through this trial.

Peace
James

Thanks James. As DVIN just said above, you have been “blessed” with suffering. Like you, this is the second time for my wife to live through this. Her father had AD and deriorated and died in 1991. Now, she’s reliving it with her mother, and you are reliving it with your wife.

My wife is also thinking the worst, that since both her parents had it, she and her brothers and sisters will likely have it.

So who knows? I may be in your shoes sometime in the future
ready or not.

God Bless

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Thank you DVN and James – your words remind me of those of my priest friend - a spot and understanding that was so hard to see him work through to reach.

I hope your words touch as many as possible.

Thank you both again for such lovely posts.

 

[JRKH]

James,
Padre Pio once said “those who suffer greatly, God blesses greatly” – or something along those lines. You are undoubtedly blessed if the suffering you have had to endure so far in your life is any indication.

I can sympathize with you as I watch my FIL die of AD. The doctors say he may not make it through the weekend. **He cannot swallow and isn’t taking in any nutrition. He is comfortable and not in pain and is just lying in bed as the family waits for him to take his last breath. I guess it could be questioned if letting “natures take its course” is “speeding up” his death (he is not receiving food and very little amounts of water). I’m not a doctor, nor have I spoken to one so I will not try and determine if artificial feeding and hydration would be of any benefit to him at this point. **

At the end, we all need to be at peace with our decisions. Pray for this peace and for the wisdom of the Church to guide us in these end of life matters. God will never hold it against us if we act out of love and our motives are pure. Although sometimes God allows us to suffer – sometimes terribly so – to bring about a greater good. IMHO I will err on the side of life if/when I am ever in a situation to sustain a life in the final stages of a disease. This doesn’t mean I would do anything “extraordinary” to keep the person alive. I would do what I feel is required of us and that is to provide the best I could at meeting the patient’s minimal needs.

DVIN,
I am praying for you now.
May God grant you His strength and courage and peace as He calls your loved one home to Himself.

As to the feeding issue, we found out that, once the patient stops eating, the digestive system basically stops functioning, so trying feeding tubes is not really a viable option. It is good that you give a little water. With Dad, mom would keep some crushed ice in the freezer and we would put small bits of it on his lips. It helped to keep his mouth from drying out too much.

My dad lasted just about 6 days from the time he stopped eating. Of course each case is different.

Also, it can be helpful to the family if you talk quietly to him and let him know it is OK for him to leave now.

God be with you and your family.

I want to take the time here to put in a plug for hospice here. They were absolutely fantastic with my mom and with all of us. I can’t thank them enough. (This was Hospice of Cincinnati.)

Peace
James