Not schismatic, not in union

[BobP123]

Lutherans and Anglicans also have more beautiful Masses than many Catholics; would it be okay to join those churches for the sake of one’s soul?

They are not considered Catholic rites as the Canon Law requires.You could use the Russian Orthodox as an example, though.

 

[BobCatholic]

“Not schismatic, not in union”

“So the SSPX are schismatic, but not yet formally in Schism.”

What I see here is confusion.

So, let’s make things clear.

What is schism?

Schism “is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him” (Can. 751)

Now, let’s see.

Do the SSPX submit to the Pope?

No.

Game over.

 

[bear06]

Are you by any chance able to enlighten us and list these meritorious ways we can achieve sanctity by attending Masses that are causing our souls to become lukewarm?

If you think that suffering with Our Lord can cause you to be lukewarm, then we don’t see eye to eye. How about all of the faithful that were imprisoned for years with no Mass at all? It’s not the imperfect situation that is the problem. It’s what you do with it.

 

[BobP123]

What I see here is confusion.

Do the SSPX submit to the Pope?

Hmmm. According to the initial protocol signed by both the Holy See and Lebrebrve, that appears to be the case.

unavoce.org/protocol.htm

 

[CB_Catholic]

But if one leads you to becoming a heretic, and the other leads you to greater reverence and love of God, which one is more damning to your soul?

I can understand your frustration, but what I can’t understand is your fear of becoming a heretic. If you are strong in your Catholic faith, that is not likely to happen. We are exposed to blatant sin every single day of our lives from the media, our permissive culture, materialism, the drug culture, etc., yet we choose to remain seperated from the world and remain Christians. That is how it has been for Christians from the beginning. Surely you are capable of not being affected by some liturgical abuses.

I don’t know how often these abuses really occur where you live, I have not seen anything like it in my area, but I have been to Masses in another area where there was liturgical dance and the priest added some of his own words to the prayers, which I found distasteful, but it didn’t affect my faith at all. Are you exposed to clown Masses weekly, daily, or what? Is there not another church in your area you can drive to?
Disobedience to one’s Bishop and the Pope is a serious matter, and is probably more likely to lead to heresy and schism than an occassional Mass with some abuses. Disobedience often takes on a life of it’s own, and is very easy to perpetuate in our lives. It is the very stuff schism and heresy is made of, and one of Satan’s tools to divide the Church. We should not participate in it, even if the other party does.

One’s love of God and reverence toward Him is not totally dependent on the circumstances of the Liturgy. It is an attitude of the heart and the humility to be submissive and be obedient to Him, and the onus is on you to nuture and develop that, with the help of the Holy Spirit. I don’t mean to offend you, but the ball is in your court here–you have the choice to remain a fully committed Catholic Christian, even in the most trying of circumstances. Whether or not our souls are damned is up to us, not the Liturgy we attend. God bless you.

 

[paramedicgirl]

They put the law of obedience ahead of the idea that they were owed something.

Lutherans and Anglicans also have more beautiful Masses than many Catholics; would it be okay to join those churches for the sake of one’s soul?

They are no different than the SSPX - just older. Their founders, too, were “merely” excommunicated from the Catholic Church; they didn’t voluntarily or intentionally go into schism. (They also made no attempt to get out of schism once they were in it, which also seems similar to the SSPX.)

In their first generation, they, too, had valid Sacraments, yet the Reformation Saints such as St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, etc., would have died rather than attend a Lutheran Mass, even when the Masses in their own parish churches left much to be desired, including priests who, because they could not speak Latin, made nonsense of the words of the Consecration.

They also didn’t sit back and do nothing. They went to their Bishops - but not only to complain - they also asked what they could do to help.

That’s what we need to do. Don’t just complain. Put together a plan of action, and run it by your Bishop, or else ask him what you can do to help make your Catholic parish more reverent, and inspire your priest to greater holiness.

So you are putting the SSPX on the same parallel as Protestants? Are you actually saying that SSPX Cathoics are actually protestants?

 

[jmcrae]

They are not considered Catholic rites as the Canon Law requires.You could use the Russian Orthodox as an example, though.

They were at the time though. (In fact there are many Anglicans alive today who have no idea that the schism even happened - they think they are Catholics.)

We are in the first generation of the SSPX, which is almost identical in every feature to the first generation of the Lutherans, and the first generation of the Anglicans - all three of them thought they were creating a “new and improved” Church with a more reverent liturgy.

 

[paramedicgirl]

If you think that suffering with Our Lord can cause you to be lukewarm, then we don’t see eye to eye. How about all of the faithful that were imprisoned for years with no Mass at all? It’s not the imperfect situation that is the problem. It’s what you do with it.

You don’t understand my point. When someone is exposed to nothing but altered Catholicism, how can they maintain the Catholic faith as it is meant to be? Heresies will creep in, and the way they believe will be altered by what they have been exposed to. Keep in mind not all people have access to many different churches where they can just go to another parish. Maybe in the US that’s true, but in rural Canada it’s a different story.

 

[jmcrae]

So you are putting the SSPX on the same parallel as Protestants? Are you actually saying that SSPX Cathoics are actually protestants?

What is the difference between the first generation of the Lutherans, and this generation of the SSPX? (Other than the year it happened, and the names of the players, of course.) Remember, the Lutherans didn’t become heretics until after they lost the validity of their Holy Orders.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I can understand your frustration, but what I can’t understand is your fear of becoming a heretic. If you are strong in your Catholic faith, that is not likely to happen. We are exposed to blatant sin every single day of our lives from the media, our permissive culture, materialism, the drug culture, etc., yet we choose to remain seperated from the world and remain Christians. That is how it has been for Christians from the beginning. Surely you are capable of not being affected by some liturgical abuses.

I don’t know how often these abuses really occur where you live, I have not seen anything like it in my area, but I have been to Masses in another area where there was liturgical dance and the priest added some of his own words to the prayers, which I found distasteful, but it didn’t affect my faith at all. Are you exposed to clown Masses weekly, daily, or what? Is there not another church in your area you can drive to?
Disobedience to one’s Bishop and the Pope is a serious matter, and is probably more likely to lead to heresy and schism than an occassional Mass with some abuses. Disobedience often takes on a life of it’s own, and is very easy to perpetuate in our lives. It is the very stuff schism and heresy is made of, and one of Satan’s tools to divide the Church. We should not participate in it, even if the other party does.

One’s love of God and reverence toward Him is not totally dependent on the circumstances of the Liturgy. It is an attitude of the heart and the humility to be submissive and be obedient to Him, and the onus is on you to nuture and develop that, with the help of the Holy Spirit. I don’t mean to offend you, but the ball is in your court here–you have the choice to remain a fully committed Catholic Christian, even in the most trying of circumstances. Whether or not our souls are damned is up to us, not the Liturgy we attend. God bless you.

Relax, Carolyn, these are hypothetical questions.

 

[paramedicgirl]

What is the difference between the first generation of the Lutherans, and this generation of the SSPX? (Other than the year it happened, and the names of the players, of course.) Remember, the Lutherans didn’t become heretics until after they lost the validity of their Holy Orders.

So do you believe that the SSPX are protestants?

 

[jmcrae]

So do you believe that the SSPX are protestants?

In effect, yes they are.

Obviously they are not descended from Martin Luther, but they have all the features of the original movement of Protestantism, including the belief that they are the “real” Catholics ™, because of their superior liturgy, and their belief that they don’t have to be in communion with the Pope in order to be a “good Catholic;” that all it takes is good liturgy.

 

[paramedicgirl]

In effect, yes they are.

Obviously they are not descended from Martin Luther, but they have all the features of the original movement of Protestantism, including the belief that they are the “real” Catholics ™, because of their superior liturgy, and their belief that they don’t have to be in communion with the Pope in order to be a “good Catholic;” that all it takes is good liturgy.

So do you also believe the Eastern Orthodox are protestants?

 

[BobP123]

They were at the time though. (In fact there are many Anglicans alive today who have no idea that the schism even happened - they think they are Catholics.)

We are in the first generation of the SSPX, which is almost identical in every feature to the first generation of the Lutherans, and the first generation of the Anglicans - all three of them thought they were creating a “new and improved” Church with a more reverent liturgy.

I think TNT made a point of this earlier. It seems as if the second generation shouldn’t be held accountable for the acts of the first generation and so forth. So given this premise, if we wait long enough, the SSPX situtation will rectify by itself. So why bother negotiating? 19 years of wasted effort so far according to many here.

That being said, however, the Lutherans and Anglicans still do not have a Catholic rite, at least not one that’s recognized as such by the Church. From what I’ve seen they hold their liturgies in very high esteem, beautiful organ music that is hard to outperform, very wonderful sermons, very Christian prayers, and very reverent communion service, but no validity, unfortunately. (In the Anglican situation, yes, they even call themselves Anglican Catholics but Pope Leo XIII invalidated all their priests.)

 

[jmcrae]

So do you also believe the Eastern Orthodox are protestants?

No, because their churches don’t depend for their existence on Rome. They are descended directly from other Apostles than Peter. The SSPX are breaking from Peter, and they are not separately descended from any other Apostle, down a different line - once they are completely broken away from Peter, they have no other Apostle to take his place, thus losing their Apostolic Succession whenever that happens.

 

[paramedicgirl]

No, because their churches don’t depend for their existence on Rome. They are descended directly from other Apostles than Peter. The SSPX are breaking from Peter, and they are not separately descended from any other Apostle, down a different line - once they are completely broken away from Peter, they have no other Apostle to take his place, thus losing their Apostolic Succession whenever that happens.

Then why has the SSPX been called an internal matter of the Church by certain cardinals? Can you show me a Church document that refers to them as protestants?

 

[jmcrae]

Then why has the SSPX been called an internal matter of the Church by certain cardinals? Can you show me a Church document that refers to them as protestants?

I am saying that they are like Protestants. Obviously they are not actually Protestants, because they are not descended from Martin Luther.

But they will end up in the same situation as the Protestants, if they don’t get back into union with the Church, on the Church’s terms, before they have lost all possibility of doing so.

PS: Protestantism was an “internal matter” for the first 100 years, too.

 

[BobP123]

The SSPX are breaking from Peter, and they are not separately descended from any other Apostle, down a different line - once they are completely broken away from Peter, they have no other Apostle to take his place, thus losing their Apostolic Succession whenever that happens.

I wouldn’t go there just yet. The Orthodox have managed to establish an Apostolic Succession and some non-Catholic faiths have ex-Catholic priests in their midst. Apostolic Succession is tough to break, even if you have many Judases within its ranks.

 

[jmcrae]

I wouldn’t go there just yet. The Orthodox have managed to establish an Apostolic Succession

They always had it. Apostolic Succession isn’t something you can lose, and then get back. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. The Orthodox never lost it, because they still had other Apostles besides Peter, when they broke away from Peter. They only lost the Petrine line; not the others.

and some non-Catholic faiths have ex-Catholic priests in their midst.

But not valid Bishops who can ordain valid priests.

 

[Walking_Home]

I am saying that they are like Protestants. Obviously they are not actually Protestants, because they are not descended from Martin Luther.

But they will end up in the same situation as the Protestants, if they don’t get back into union with the Church, on the Church’s terms, before they have lost all possibility of doing so.

PS: Protestantism was an “internal matter” for the first 100 years, too.

---

The Orthodox have been out of union with the Catholic Church close to 1000 yrs. They have not lost Apostolic succession, —the Church accepts their sacraments as valid—and She does not consider the Orthodox as protestant. So it is not a given–that the SSPX will end up in the same situation as the protestants.