Not Sure About Annulments

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mazie

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Hi, there. Does anyone know stipulations allowing annulment of a valid, sacramental marriage? My husband and I are practicing Catholics, have been, had many complements on our wedding Mass, in fact. However after our wedding, he began having impotency issues (we waited of course, but he had no problems getting ‘excited’ before our wedding!); we are infertile (he had cancer years prior and is infertile); he claims to want to adopt, but treads his feet dreadfully when I want to move forward with it; and is far more interested in making sure I am caring for his older children and that they are stable and happy (he has custody), than he is with keeping appts. w/ our Catholic NFP doctor who is trying to help with some good old fashioned ‘fertility-focused’ intercourse…Now if I could just get him to see his family doc, who wants his lipids checked for possible high cholesterol, and for him to discuss the impotency issue (she made this request of him, oh, over a year ago). We have been married for 14 months. In that time his ex-wife has attacked us incessantly, messed up my stepkids, and called CPS on us. Fortunately they realized she was full of hot air and left it as ‘unsubstantiated’; had it gone the other way, we would never even be able to adopt children. However, things going as they are, and her constant court pressure as well as constantly keeping her elementary age children emotionally hopping just so they can’t have any chance of normalcy, and my husband’s preoccupation with the kids, leaves us way behind in the dust. I am at my wit’s end, and even took up smoking again. If anyone knows if this marriage is eligible for being annulled, please advise. It is the last thing I want, but unfortunately I just don’t see things getting any better.
 
While you will have a very sympathetic reading of your situation and most likely a number of prayers from those who read your post, it would not be appropriate to discuss your situation in terms of looking into the nullity of marriage.

The Church wants to encourage you to first pursue ways to resolve these difficulties, and I would urgently counsel you to contact your parish priest. Any advice to the contrary would be premature and offensive to the dignity of the sacrament. It would be a disservice to you and your husband.

Please be aware that there really is nothing that allows “annulment of a valid” marriage. A decree of nullity is a declaration that a given marriage, although appearing and presumed valid, was, in fact invalid from the beginning. This requires a tribunal process.

Tribunals do not investigate the nullity of marriage unless there is indication that a marriage has ended without realistic hope of reconciliation. This is usually evidenced by a civil divorce. However, not even the existence of a civil divorce is a proof in favor of the nullity of marriage.

But again, please contact your parish priest. You will have our prayer for the healling of your marriage.
 
you have a lot of issues and strains on your marriage, and the sacramentel graces of marriage and the other sacraments will help you enormously, as will the help of various professionals who deal with the areas of need, if only you make use of their services. Your marriage is presumed valid. The Church would not even consider investigating circumstances until after a civil divorce. The bulk of the issues raised in your post have nothing whatever to do with the validity of the marriage, but everything to do with the stresses and strains of modern life, where re-marriage after divorce and/or annulment is so common. you diocesan family life office and Catholic Charities can help with referrals to retreats, counseling and other services. We of course will be praying for you. By the way, no valid marriage ever has or ever will be “annulled”. A decree of nullity, declaration that a valid marriage never existed, is issued where after due investigation that is proven to be the case, but a valid marriage, no, and an ongoing marriage, no.
 
Sorry, with everything going on and with leaving out the bulk of everything that has happened, I did forget to mention, that, obviously I am wishing to file for separation and then divorce. I am usually thinking ahead regardless of the situation though and always look down every road as far as I can. It just really scares the **** out of me because no one ever gets married thinking they will be in this situation, and I don’t want to be separated from the church.
I certainly was not trying to give a ‘sympathetic reading’ of my situation, as one post said; believe me I have left out many, many details!! You’ll also have to forgive me due to the character-limit on the forum (I had to chop my initial post many, many times!) that I just might not always use the correct verbiage. I know that a valid marriage cannot be annulled. However, I am questioning, given the reasons below, the vailidity of our marriage at this point. So maybe this will help:
  1. I ***do ***intend to file for separation/divorce.
  2. My husband is not interested in maintaining our sex life or making sure that he is physically capable of the procreative act whatsoever. This completely contrasts with some evenings when we would get a little frisky before marriage (no intercourse, no oral anything, but anyway…); he had no problems getting and maintaining an erection.
My gut feeling on point #2 is that while I believe he loves me, I believe also that he is far more interested in making sure he has someone taking care of his children so that his ex cannot get them more time (i.e. from a sitter), and that was his priority. Extra time with their mom has proven damaging to the kids so I certainly understand this priority however his priorities should NOT stop at his children.
  1. He is even less interested in pursuing children by adoption, contrary to what we discussed (with our PRIEST, even) prior to marriage.
As my husband is a much-respected man and loved by many, I had no reason to doubt anything he said to me at any time.

Like I said, I was wondering if anyone knew if, after we are civilly divorced, we could annul our marriage based on the above reasons. I hope that clarification helps.

As for the situation with my stepkids and ex-wife, well, it certainly doesn’t help our marital issues any at all. I watched my stepkids go from loving me to death, to making up stories about me to their mom and making the CPS stuff worse. Their mom threatened many other things too that if she had succeeded, would have landed me in jail; not that they were true, only that she is able to completely emotionally blackmail her children. I know it sounds crazy, you’ll just have to trust me on this one!

Regarding looking for a priest to counsel us, I have put out inquiries, but most have been very busy. I am not interested in meeting with our priest because he thinks women should be priests and that everyone should be on antidepressants. So, forgive me, but, I’ve written off our priest.
 
Also, I forgot to mention:
  1. I attend daily Mass most days
  2. I have been doing a novena to Holy Souls in Purgatory for our marriage, as well as offering up all of my works every month at the start of every month, for their intercession in strengthening our marriage
  3. I go to Confession monthly
  4. I pray quite a bit everyday
  5. I have talked to priests, counselors, and the like…MANY… and I receive many different answers. It just depends on their background. I have yet to receive an answer to the question of annulling a marriage. Secular counselors can’t answer that question.
Thanks for the encouragement to beef up on sacramental graces, but, already doing that. As I said before, I am a practicing Catholic.
 
mazie said:
Sorry, with everything going on and with leaving out the bulk of everything that has happened, I did forget to mention, that, obviously I am wishing to file for separation and then divorce. I am usually thinking ahead regardless of the situation though and always look down every road as far as I can. It just really scares the **** out of me because no one ever gets married thinking they will be in this situation, and I don’t want to be separated from the church.
I certainly was not trying to give a ‘sympathetic reading’ of my situation, as one post said; believe me I have left out many, many details!! You’ll also have to forgive me due to the character-limit on the forum (I had to chop my initial post many, many times!) that I just might not always use the correct verbiage. I know that a valid marriage cannot be annulled. However, I am questioning, given the reasons below, the vailidity of our marriage at this point. So maybe this will help:
  1. I ***do ***intend to file for separation/divorce.
  2. My husband is not interested in maintaining our sex life or making sure that he is physically capable of the procreative act whatsoever. This completely contrasts with some evenings when we would get a little frisky before marriage (no intercourse, no oral anything, but anyway…); he had no problems getting and maintaining an erection.
My gut feeling on point #2 is that while I believe he loves me, I believe also that he is far more interested in making sure he has someone taking care of his children so that his ex cannot get them more time (i.e. from a sitter), and that was his priority. Extra time with their mom has proven damaging to the kids so I certainly understand this priority however his priorities should NOT stop at his children.
  1. He is even less interested in pursuing children by adoption, contrary to what we discussed (with our PRIEST, even) prior to marriage.
As my husband is a much-respected man and loved by many, I had no reason to doubt anything he said to me at any time.

Like I said, I was wondering if anyone knew if, after we are civilly divorced, we could annul our marriage based on the above reasons. I hope that clarification helps.

As for the situation with my stepkids and ex-wife, well, it certainly doesn’t help our marital issues any at all. I watched my stepkids go from loving me to death, to making up stories about me to their mom and making the CPS stuff worse. Their mom threatened many other things too that if she had succeeded, would have landed me in jail; not that they were true, only that she is able to completely emotionally blackmail her children. I know it sounds crazy, you’ll just have to trust me on this one!

Regarding looking for a priest to counsel us, I have put out inquiries, but most have been very busy. I am not interested in meeting with our priest because he thinks women should be priests and that everyone should be on antidepressants. So, forgive me, but, I’ve written off our priest.
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After the civil divorce is final you can ask the Church to look into the validity of the Marriage. ALL the items you list will be looked into, in detail, by the Church Tribunal, in order to make it’s decision as to if a valid Marriage took place on the wedding day. You can approach any Catholic priest or ask the diocese if you feel you cannot speak with youe own pastor.
 
mazie said:
Like I said, I was wondering if anyone knew if, after we are civilly divorced, we could annul our marriage based on the above reasons.
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As Deacon Cameron has already said, **no one **here can tell you if you have grounds for a decree of nullity. Only a tribunal investigation can determine this. You need to talk to your priest.

This is simply something that is not a “yes” or “no” answer.
 
Thanks everyone.

As difficult as this year has been as well as coming to the decision to actually even consider divorce, well, I guess I was hoping that maybe something**** in this mess might be.

I take comfort in knowing that the Church looks at every situation individually. Friends try to advise you but depending on your friend, you get a different answer! I’ll see a priest.

Thanks, Again.

Best,

’ Mazie ’
 
This appears to be at least your husband’s second marriage since he has children from a former union? Did he receive an annulment prior to marrying you? Or is this his and your first marriage? You didn’t mention the relationship your stepchildren came from.
Should you end up divorcing this man, you will still be able to receive the sacraments, but you will not be able to remarry until an annulment is granted. If you remarry without an annulment, you are encouraged to go to mass, however you are not to receive the sacraments until such time an annulment would be granted. Annulments are not guaranteed. Many people say that annulments are Catholic divorces, they are not. The tribunal will determine if you had defects prior to the marriage that nullify it.
I would hope you seek prayer and good counseling before you decide to bail out!
I received an annulment after 19 years of marriage. It was rejected by the tribunal after my initial submission. I appealed their decision based on faulty reasoning by the other party. My reasoning was what the Church stated as a sacramental union, so I had to prove the intention of the ex was not within the teachings of the Church. Remember the ones suffering are the kids.
 
Thanks for the Info, DanB:
I know very little about annulments and situations, so any/all is helpful. I did find a link on the Catholic Answers site written by a Canon Lawyer that gave a lot of details. Yes, this is my husband’s 2nd marriage. No, he’s a not a deadbeat! He did also date another girl for about a year in b/n our marriage and his divorce, and due to his job, she was with the kids quite a bit as was his mother and former mr-in-law. He was confirmed Catholic as a youth but his single mother did not teach the faith really at home, and so in college my husband fell away, and then met (and quickly wed) his first wife, in her then-church, a Lutheran church. After we dated for roughly a year, he decided he was called to return to Catholicism. I had told him after our 2nd date that if he was serious about me, he was going to Mass with me, and I would attend church service w/ him at his protestant church and I was fine with that. He did, and he even brought his twins to Mass as well, which spoke volumes if he was willing to expose his kids to that (they were 4 at the time). I never pressured him to become Catholic, but we would discuss scripture, etc., and he pretty much convinced himself after doing a thorough reading of history. Now fully reunited with the church, he spoke with our pastor about annulling his first marriage. Apparently he did not need to annul the marriage since he was married while not in communion with the church, the union was never blessed by a Catholic priest, and she left him b/c of very serious infidelity and drug use issues, although he did ask her to leave the house at one point. She never tried to reconcile her drug and infidelity issues, ending up pregnant just a few months later. He has been a single father since the twins were 2 years old, their civil divorce final when they were 3. I met him when the twins were 4, just getting ready to turn 5, so it had been a good 2 years since their physical separation by the time I met my husband. Thank you for sharing your situation. What makes this so difficult for me is that my husband is a knowledgeable and gentle person, and we have always been thankful for our strong faith. They say the best Catholics are reverts, and this is certainly true in his case. Also making it tough is the fact that he is an amazing father; something I noticed when we first met. Coming from a divorced situation myself, I picked up on many things and dynamics with his interaction with his children that most people would never think to address. He was the one who potty-trained his kids, he got them to appropriate therapies as toddlers (negligence + drug use = messed up toddlers), did everything for them. He reads to them, he takes them places, he limits their television, he is adamant about not having Barbie dolls and Bratz dolls in his home for his daughter. He is, hands down, one of the best fathers I’ve ever met. His kids are now doing fairly well, all things considered. His daughter is a full year emotionally and mentally behind her twin brother, but doing very well with her age group. They are both in a great parochial school, better than the one I went to, and actually seem to have a real shot at life now. However, things being what they have been, knowing that his actions have been contrary to his words regarding more children via adoption, blowing off this NFP-Creighton doctor, took awhile for me to see and it was very sad to even come to this realization, that he wants primarily to raise these children and only secondarily consider a new bunch of children. I now also have to take an antidepressant just to take care of the kids (well, I take St. John’s Wort, it’s mild and does a great job) and keep my head up everyday because, let’s face it, coming to a conclusion like this is depressing, as I’m sure you know. One would think that after the legal mess was over just a few months back from his ex-wife, things would be fine. But I’m seeing now that my husband would much prefer we raise his kids and that’s that. I knew stepparenting would be tough, but I wasn’t prepared for this. And I certainly wasn’t prepared for my husband to do an about-face in regards to our marriage as he has done. I am seeing reluctantly at this point that with his previous job being out of town so much when he kicked out the kids’ mom, having his mom and her mom in the house while he was out of town, until he switched to his current job which is understanding of his having to stay home with sick kids, and also with the girlfriend he had, he really just wants someone to take care of his kids and that’s it. He knows children need a mother but I never dreamed that was all he wanted in a wife and never dreamed that he would change after we got married. Note, he was my mom’s neighbor for years so I know he did not make up his past or anything.
Thanks for sharing, and keep me in your prayers.
 
now is not the time to be questioning whether your marriage is valid, it is the time to be questioning on the issues that surround you and your husband and dealing with them. You are putting the cart before the horse. Job #1 is saving the marriage, and addressing what are obviously serious problems your husband is dealing with, and which to a degree he is unable or unwilling to address himself. If is likely that those problems are not about you and not about the marriage per se, but this is someone who should be more important to you than anyone else in the world who needs you. He needs a healthy you, so also get help for anything in your personal life that requires it, including personal counselling to help you deal with all that is going on.

We don’t need and should not have all the personal details here, this is not the time and place. Share those with the medical, psychological and spiritual advisors and counselors.

This is also not the time and place to discuss individual marriages with regard to validity. Those determinations may be made only in the canon law tribunal, only for a marriage that is beyond all hope of reconciliation, and quite beyond the scope of this discussion forum.

You may want to search the liturgy and sacraments forum on the topic of annulment, and on troubled marriages, for discussions and links that will help you.

you may wish to post prayer intentions on that forum, and prayer is your greatest need right now.

some general observations: the validity of the marriage depends on conditions which pertained at the time of the marriage, not events that transpired afterward.

a marriage needs consent and capacity and freedom for validity, and if any of those were compromised, by any of dozens or hundreds of reasons, the marriage may be invalid.
 
Mazie,

My feedback is twofold.

First, have you actually discussed this with your husband? I know you *feel *as if he married you for a babysitter/child caretaker but have you asked him if this is so? Have you told him this is how you have been made to feel?

Honestly, he may be dealing with so much that it didn’t occur to him that he is treating you badly. If he is, as you say, the “best father” in the world then it seems unlikely that he is intentionally being the “worst husband” in the world.

Talk to him, insist on counseling with a Catholic counselor and/or priest. It sounds to me that communication is as the heart of your issue.

Secondly, on educating yourself about marriage and nullity, I suggest the book Annulment: The Wedding That Was by Michael Smith Foster.
 
The Church does recognize marriages that are outside of the Church. I would make sure that your husband received some type of dispensation (in writing) prior to marrying you. I received my annulment and so did my wife, she was required to by the diocese even though she was previously married in the Protestant tradition.

Your marriage may be invalid, just by the precepts you are living in a adulterous situation. You need to check w/ your parish priest and diocese. I’d get it in writing.

Please refrain from sharing all your personal information.
 
DanB said:
The Church does recognize marriages that are outside of the Church. I.
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OP stated in the first line she was married in the Church at Mass and that both are practicing Catholics, so we work on that assumption. it won’t help her to confuse the issue with info not applicable to her situation. her first line of help should be her parish priest, not this forum
 
Yes Puzzelannie she is actually refering to her Husband’s FIRST marriage which was with a Lutheran, and the marriage was outside the church. THAT marriage might be valid after all which would affect THIS marriage. ( that is how I understood it ).

Very hard thread to follow though! The OP was also married before.

Mazie, did you receive an annulment from your first marriage? Or was that marriage outside of the church?

I have no experience with wanting out of a marriage, but I was wondering, do you think your husband will “change” and become more intimate? Your marriage is only 14 months old…
 
Sina said:
Yes Puzzelannie she is actually refering to her Husband’s FIRST marriage which was with a Lutheran, and the marriage was outside the church.
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Yes, and as a Catholic he was bound by Catholic form. A lack of form process is not the same as a full tribunal process.
Sina said:
THAT marriage might be valid after all which would affect THIS marriage. ( that is how I understood it ).
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They were married in the Catholic Church, which means that all of this was investigated and paperwork was completed, and they were both free to marry.
Sina said:
The OP was also married before.
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The OP does not mention a prior marriage of her own that I can see.

So, in any case, all of this needs to be discussed with her priest.
 
1ke said:
They were married in the Catholic Church, which means that all of this was investigated and paperwork was completed, and they were both free to marry.
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I’m not convinced by her story that the husband’s first marriage was annulled. The story line she gave was that the husband was married the first time outside of the Church and the church basically, said it wasn’t a real marriage because it wasn’t performed in the Catholic church. My advice, if it’s not in writing then you may be dealing w/ a whole different mess. She didn’t say anything about an annullment on his side.
 
Mazie,

You need to contact your diocese and ask for a marriage counselor. Our diocese has a deacon and his wife doing a lot of marriage vocational activities. They counsel and set up marriage encounters and retrovaille. Also, with the large part of society being in a step parent, step family relationship, there is also counseling for that. As a step parent your role is different, hopefully you will find out your role and obligations before you bail out.
 
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