Not the same God?

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How does one come to understand the Trinity–which defies logic, and reason and can only come to be known through Divine Revelation–without the influence of Christianity?

What I ment by that was that there was no intended missionary work at bay. He came to it on his own…through the prompting of the Holy Spirit and by being lead to research with an open mind.

Buddists already have an strong understanding of this concept through the ‘3 jewels’ of Buddist phylosophy.
The Buddha nature: the ideal or highest spiritual potential that exists within all beings;
The Dharma: the teachings of the Buddha.
The Sangha: The community of those who have attained enlightenment, who may help a practicing Buddhist to do the same.

He OBVIOUSLY has read or come across knowledge of Jesus Christ, His life and claims.(not hard these days with internet). It wouldn’t be hard to imagine there may be an enitity more powerful and higher placed then buddha. Following that…it wouldn’t be hard to connect Jesus ‘the word’ with the teachings made flesh…and the Holy Spirit with the energy in the Sangha. This may sound far fetched…but It’s the only answer I have…I must ask him when I see him next. The fact is…he IS or WAS buddist and now believes in Jesus as the son of God. He still believes in reincarnation as part of God’s plan along with the energy that is through all, in all, of all.
 
He OBVIOUSLY has read or come across knowledge of Jesus Christ, His life and claims.(not hard these days with internet).
Yep. That’s what I’m saying. I’d be really skeptical of a person who came to the knowledge of Jesus Christ being Lord but said it wasn’t through the influence of any Christian doctrine.

And we can thank the Catholic Church for that. 🙂
 
Greetings~
Well, here I am in a mess again.
My husband is a Lutheran and he was deeply offended when I told him that Catholics have a different God than Lutherans have because the way I saw it, there was no way it ever could be the same one, the qualities are too disimilar. Protestants are too quick to say we make everything up.
It’s a bit strange because if our God *is the same *
Jen,

The Catholic and Protestants believe in the same God. However the Protestant reformation should have never been, it is not of God’s doing, but made up by men. this will perhaps make your husband more offended, sorry!

Ufam Tobie
 
I personally know of a devote buddist who has come to the inspired knowledge that Jesus is the son of God…all by himself through (or in spite of) practicing fully his buddist beliefs honestly and with an open mind. It seems to him (so he said) that is was just a short step across a thin precipice. He still believes in reincarnation but not in the context he did before. He believes that Jesus by his death & ressurection, conquered the never ending hopelessness previously experienced in the ënlightenment spiral of the sinful, and that any further reincarnation is due to his OWN choice to return to earth only in human form (he never believed in human/animal reincarnation) to help others or further purify his own spirituality instead of serving his time in a ‘purgatory’ type place. Through acceptance of Jesus he has come to believe in both the Father & the Holy Spirit as a Trinity and one true Creator God. All this with NO interference from any christian source. I found this vary "enlightening.
Dear illusion buster,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. A warm welcome to the world of CAF.

Thankyou for the above, which surely exemplifies the truth of that passage in St. John’s Gospel where the Apostle says that Christ is “The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world” (S. Jhn. 1: 9). There is some universal illumination in every man. As Justin Martyr said, “We have been taught that Christ is the firstborn of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word to Whom every race of men were partakers, and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought Atheists, as among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them”. Again, “No one trusted in Socrates, so as to die for his doctrine, but in Christ, Who was partially known even by Socrates, for he was, and is, the Word Who is in every man” (Apol. 1 and Apol. 2). The case of your friend also shows that a man does not always need to hear a conscious proclamation of the Gospel in order to come unto a knowledge of Christ. God is at work in the world and this is the Lord’s doing and it is truly marvelous in our eyes.

Fortunately, this dear man of which you speak also has a Catholic friend like you who can show unto him the fullness of truth as it is in Jesus and point him to the water of baptismal regeneration (assuming that he has not recieved the initiatory sacrament already). We can see here the working of the Divine Providence in bringing a sincere and earnest seeker after truth to a gradual knowledge of the truth. For him his Buddism was a true “preparation of the Gospel”. To quote Nostra Aetate: “Other religions…strive variously to answer the restless strivings of the human heart by proposing ‘ways’, which consist of teachings, rules of life, and sacred ceremonies. The Catholic Church rejects nothing which is true and holy in these religions. She looks with sincere respect upon those ways of conduct and of life which…often reflect a ray of Truth which enlightens all men” (The Documents of Vatican II, Chapman 1967, p.35).

Please rest assured, I will remember your friend before the throne of the heavenly grace this day and will pray that you are afforded the opportunity to explain unto him more perfectly the tenets of our most holy religion and correct any erroneous beliefs.

God bless and welcome to our discussion.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Jen,

The Catholic and Protestants believe in the same God. However the Protestant reformation should have never been, it is not of God’s doing, but made up by men. this will perhaps make your husband more offended, sorry!

Ufam Tobie
Yes ,if the Catholic Church had not become so corrupted it might not have happened.
This idea of a cosy club mentality ,and the idea that there is only perfection in all things Catholic,is a turn off ,for real seekers. While the church, has led more people to be saved in Christ ,than any other authority on earth,since creation,it is full of ignorant if well meaning people,who are not yet ready for full revelation.😃
 
F.A.O kelman

Dear kelman,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well and that you had a pleasant weekend. Considering that we are in January the weather here in the UK is exceptionally mild and indeed has been for a greater part of the winter season. Can now address the subject of the O.T. canon.

As regards the Deutrocanonical books, what I think we can safely say is that, by and large, they were embraced up until the formal and definitive definition of the canon at the Council of Tent. Moreover, this majority was, I would suggest, sufficiently large enough to meet with St. Vincent of lerin’s definition of “universal consent”.

It is important to remember that there was a large flourishing community of Greek-speaking Jews, whose chief centre was Alexandria. Now these Jews played and important and far-reaching part in the history of the canon because their practice differed from Palestine. It was for their benefit that the Septuagint (LXX) was made, and which contained together with the books of the Hebrew Bible additional books and passages, that is to say these Deutrocanonical’s. There can, I think, be little doubt that the inspiration of these books was acknowledged throughout the universal Church, after it had been questioned in some places, and consequently came to occupy at length the second place in the canon. Therefore, I am not certain what you mean when you state that “existing evidence supports that the earlier translations did not contain the Apocrypha”. What is your source of information for this, dear friend? It sounds jolly speculative to my mind and I confess that I have never come accross such evidence until you mentioned it.

Whilst the shorter Hebrew canon was virtually settled and accepted by the Jews towards the end of the 2nd. century, the Catholic Church was not bound by any Jewish decision. The only source from which she could receive the O.T. canon was our Lord Himself or the Holy Spirit through the Apostles. By their teaching and continual appeal to the O.T. Scripture as the word of God, they, as it were, consecrated its authority and underscored its permanent and abiding value (see S. Mk. 7: 13; Rom. 3: 2). However, the all important question is, which was the O.T. handed on to the Church? Since Christ not His Apostles have left us an explicit list of inspired O.T. books, the answer can only be discovered by examoning works of apostolic origin and tradition. There can be no doubt that from this combined evidence the Apostles recognized the LXX, not because of some official decree, but rather by the extensive use which they made of it.

In the N.T. itself it is quite true that there is no explicit, formal quotations from the Deutrocanonical books, although one might lay claim as an example (Wisdom 7: 26 cf. Heb. 1: 3). However, the absence of explicit quotation is not a conclusive argument against their acceptance, for the same also obtains in the case of several protocanonical books. In any event, there are many passages which unmistakeably betray the influence of the Deutrocanonical’s (see S. Matt. 6: 14 (Ecclus 28: 2); S. Matt. 27: 39ff. (Wis. 2: 13ff.; Rom. 1: 20ff. (Wis. 13-14); Heb. 11: 35 (2 Mac. 6: 18-7: 42); Jas. 1: 19 (Ecclus 5: 13); I Pet. 1: 6f. (Wis. 3: 3ff.). Many other instances could be cited, though with less certainty. Moreover, when the O.T. is quoted in the N.T. it more often than not agrees with the LXX. Apparently it is said that of about 300 quotations less than 50 disagree with it.

Furthermore, the LXX was, under the Divine Providence, a most powerful factor in the conversion of the world to Christianity. Since knowldege of the Greek language was widely diffused, the Apostles and their successors, found in the LXX a sort of ready point of contact wherever a knowldege of the O.T. spread. In the synagogues they could prove to the Jews of the Dispersion and their adherents that Christ had fulfilled the O.T. prophecies, and, gaining some success, were usually able to gather a number of people desirous to continue their instruction in the Christian religion. Now it was the success thus achieved that caused the Jews to become alienated from the LXX and eventually to repudiate it. Therefore, we need to ensure that we do not ascribe weight to the shorter Hebrew canon settled and accepted by the Jews. It really admits of no doubt, my dear friend, that they were motivated by polemics, at least to some extent at any rate.

When we come to tradition the evidence becomes quite conclusive, for the early Church would hardly have ventured to makee use of the wider canon and endorse it, unless it consonant with apostolic tradition and practice. Yet this is what it has consistent done from the beginning, using all the books as equally the word of God and the source of doctrine. * All* of the Deutrocanonical books are quoted in the apostolic and ECF’s in exactly the same way as the rest of the sacred writings. “Thus Clement of rome places the story of Judith side by side with that of Esther; the Wisdom of Sirach (Ecclus) is cited by Barnabas and the Didache, and Tobit by Polycarp; Clement of Alexandria and Origen appeal to Tobit and both the Wisdoms, to which Origen adds Judith. Our earliest MSS of the Greek Bible confirm the impression derived from the quotationa of the earliest Christian writers” (H.B. Swete (Protestant scholar), Introduction to O.T. Greek, 1900, p. 224). The testimony of Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian and Cyprian is the same.

In view of all this evidence in favour of the wider (Catholic) canon, it appears jolly strange that the first lists of canonical books given by Christian writers should only contain the protocanonical books (those accepted by Protestants). However, I must deal with this in my next posting. Must dash now, my dear chap.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Yes ,if the Catholic Church had not become so corrupted it might not have happened.
This idea of a cosy club mentality ,and the idea that there is only perfection in all things Catholic,is a turn off ,for real seekers.
Just so you know, entree, the Church does not claim that it is perfect.
While the church, has led more people to be saved in Christ ,than any other authority on earth,since creation,it is full of ignorant if well meaning people,who are not yet ready for full revelation.😃
This is a non-sequitur. The Church is indeed full of ignorant people, but it does not follow that they are “not yet ready for full revelation.”
 
Melito of Sardis said he went to Palestine to determine the extent of the Hebrew OT. and he gives the names of the books and their number as twenty-two—a reaffirmation of the number given by Josephus. Origen also names twenty-two books in his list of the Hebrew canon. Epiphanius, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzen and Hilary of Poitiers all agree with Josephus and Origen, and omit the writings of the Apocrypha.
Dear kelman,

Hello again and thankyou for the above.

Quite clearly, Melito is giving the canon as he found it in Palestine, where by this time the deutrocanonical books had been rejected from the canon. His purpose may have been polemical, his good intention being to give a list which the Jews would accept in controversy. That would simply have been in the interest of apologetics and finding a point of contact with the enemies of the new Christian religion. True, it has been suggested by some that Melito himself did accept the shorter Hebrew list on the authority of the Jews, and that, in so doing, he was departing from the established tradition of the Church. This may appear quite plausible at first sight, but we must needs recall that the Christian theologians of this period knew the O.T. only in the LXX and consequently made no distinction between the Hebrew canon and the deutrocanonical’s. They actually qoute the latter with the same sort of confidence as the former and with the same titles of honour. Moreover, they attribute to them an equal authority founded on an equal inspiration, so one cannot dogmatically assert that Melito rejected the LXX in favour of the shorter Hebrew canon. Certainly I will concede that it is a possibility, but an exceedingly unlikely one in view of what I have just said.

As regards the list of Origen, we naturally expect to find the deutrocanonical books excluded, for he informs us that he is giving the Hebrew canon. Later writers have quite wrongly used Origen as though he supported the shorter canon, but this cannot be sustained by the evidence. In point of fact, the contrary is borne out by his constant practice of quoting as scripture passages found only in the LXX and also by his own words, when makes reference to the question at issue. In his letter to Julius Africanus, for instance, he shows the precise way in which he regarded the disputed books. Africanus had refused to accept the history of Susanna because, among other things, it ‘was not contained in the Daniel received among the Jews’. The reply of Origen is interesting because he defends this and other deutrocanonical passages on the grounds that *the Greek bible had been received by the *Church, and adds the warning from Proverbs 22: 28. “It is well”, he says, "to remember the words “Thou shalt not remove the ancient landmarks which thy Fathers have set” (*Ep. *Africanus).

The fourth century does appear to be a period of confusion and uncertainty and several factors seem to be responsible. Firstly, the indisputable appropriation of the Septuagint by the Christians and the use made against the Jews of the Messianic prophecies as found in the LXX (especially Isa. 7: 14) did lead the Jews to reject the Greek version (Jewish Encyclopedia 3, 152). In consequence, the Christians in their controversy were compelled to argue their case soley from books acknowledged as canonical by the Jews themselves (cf. St. Justin Martyr, Dial. Tryph. 71). This in turn would lead to doubt about the authority of the deutrocanonical books left aside.

Certainly in the East you find St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Epiphanius and St. Gregory Nazianzen rejecting the deutrocanonical books. Indeed, the 60th. Canon of the provincial Council of Laodicea (circa 360 AD) supports their view. Even though its authenticity has been contested , it is still, notwithstanding, an ancient witness to the opinions prevalent in Asia Minor in the 4th. cent. Without controversy, this was the general position in the East and to deny it is to disregard the evidence. However, we cannot, I think, leave the matter there, for these very same Fathers, who* i**n theory* confine inspiration and canonicity to the Hebrew canon, in practice highly esteem and quote as Scripture all the books in the wider canon. Now “surely the practical use of writings is an evidence of their canonicity as strong as theoretical opinions” (The Canon of the Bible, S. Davidson (Protestant), 1878, p. 60).

Quite plainly in the case of the Eastern Fathers, however great may have been their hesitations re. the LXX, it did not greatly influence their actual practice. In teaching the faithful and setting forth the proofs of revealed doctrine they instinctively turned to the Septuagint. They knew of a Jewish and Christian O.T., and whilst they had a preference towards the Jewish canon, they recognised the LXX as the one historically transmitted by the Church. Thus when Origen and the Greek Fathers who follow him fix the number of sacred writings at twenty-two or twenty-four, they follow, not the earlier traditions of the Church, but the corrected estimate of Christian scholars who had learned it from thier Jewish teachers, who, as I have said previously, had their own biased reasons for wanting to reject the LXX.

God willing, I will continue to respond to your other comments respecting the canon tomorrow. Goodbye for now, dear friend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
Yes ,if the Catholic Church had not become so corrupted it might not have happened.
This idea of a cosy club mentality ,and the idea that there is only perfection in all things Catholic,is a turn off ,for real seekers. While the church, has led more people to be saved in Christ ,than any other authority on earth,since creation,it is full of ignorant if well meaning people,who are not yet ready for full revelation.😃
Entree Gratuite,

There has been corruption from day one in the Catholic Church beginning with Judas the betrayer, am I not right in saying so… The Catholic Church can never be corrupted in its Teachings Amen.

Yes, their may be corrupted priest in the Catholic Church, like Judas the betrayer, you must remember these are only men and men sin but never the Catholic Church, so please never say that the Catholic Church was corrupted saying what you Entree Gratuite have said, is calling Jesus Christ a Liar. Have you not read: Matt 16:18

Matt 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Entree Gratuite By you stating that the Catholic Church was corrupted you are going against Our Lord by saying yeah the gates of hell did prevail after all, and here is where you are saying subconsciously that Jesus Christ Lied.

The Catholic Church can never be corrupted because the gates of hell can not prevail over the Catholic Church, it is Jesus Christ’s promise. Judas the Betrayer was replaced by another so will all bad Catholic priests, but the Catholic Church can not be replaced by another church period, no matter how many thousands protestants churchesss there may be.

Ufam Tobie
 
and there is no revelation ,directly from God
to buddhists.
In the past I had always assumed that Buddism was pagan until I found myself associated with devout buddists in my workplace. Their phylosophy was very similar to the teachings of Jesus…so I thought that they couldn’t be THAT pagan, just misguided…After viewing this forum, and knowing a buddist who came to the knowledge of Jesus as the Son of God…I thought I’d look into axactly how Buddha received his ‘enlightenment’… I was surprised to know that it came while meditating for Truth.(the scripture “ask and you shall receive, seek & you will find” came to mind). Whether the buddha associated this enlightenment with the One God is irrelavent to the validity of the gift received…The truth of love & forgiveness in lieu of judgement & attack as a path to happiness can only come from the Author and source of such…So, the budda DID receive his enlightenment from the One & only God whose son Jesus came to teach the same messege. Buddha may not be a Christian as he was some 500years or more before Christ…but he seemed to ‘seek’ truth as did Abraham and Moses, and received an answer in line with Truth as we know it to be true…And remember…Jesus said “the kingdom of God is within” and " the battlefield is in the mind". Buddists only need to step one more pace in acknowledgment that TRUTH comes from a yet higher power than JUST within themselves which is the source and reflection of our creator. (man…made in His Image). The One Omnipotent God.

Enlightenment of Buddha: On a full-moon day in May, he sat under the Bodhi tree in deep meditation and said. “I will not leave this spot until I find an end to suffering.” During the night, he was visited by Mara, the evil one, who tried to tempt him away from his virtuous path. First he sent his beautiful daughters to lure Gautama into pleasure. Next he sent bolts of lightning, wind and heavy rain. Last he sent his demonic armies with weapons and flaming rocks. One by one, Gautama met the armies and defeated them with his virtue.
As the struggle ended, he realized the cause of suffering and how to remove it. He had gained the most supreme wisdom and understood things as they truly are. He became the Buddha, ‘The Awakened One’.
 
Dear illusion buster,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. A warm welcome to the world of CAF.

Thankyou for the above, which surely exemplifies the truth of that passage in St. John’s Gospel where the Apostle says that Christ is “The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world” (S. Jhn. 1: 9). There is some universal illumination in every man. As Justin Martyr said, “We have been taught that Christ is the firstborn of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word to Whom every race of men were partakers, and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought Atheists, as among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them”. Again, “No one trusted in Socrates, so as to die for his doctrine, but in Christ, Who was partially known even by Socrates, for he was, and is, the Word Who is in every man” (Apol. 1 and Apol. 2). The case of your friend also shows that a man does not always need to hear a conscious proclamation of the Gospel in order to come unto a knowledge of Christ. God is at work in the world and this is the Lord’s doing and it is truly marvelous in our eyes.

Fortunately, this dear man of which you speak also has a Catholic friend like you who can show unto him the fullness of truth as it is in Jesus and point him to the water of baptismal regeneration (assuming that he has not recieved the initiatory sacrament already). We can see here the working of the Divine Providence in bringing a sincere and earnest seeker after truth to a gradual knowledge of the truth. For him his Buddism was a true “preparation of the Gospel”. To quote Nostra Aetate: “Other religions…strive variously to answer the restless strivings of the human heart by proposing ‘ways’, which consist of teachings, rules of life, and sacred ceremonies. The Catholic Church rejects nothing which is true and holy in these religions. She looks with sincere respect upon those ways of conduct and of life which…often reflect a ray of Truth which enlightens all men” (The Documents of Vatican II, Chapman 1967, p.35).

Please rest assured, I will remember your friend before the throne of the heavenly grace this day and will pray that you are afforded the opportunity to explain unto him more perfectly the tenets of our most holy religion and correct any erroneous beliefs.

God bless and welcome to our discussion.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
Thankyou for this ‘enlightenment’…I HAVE had many oppertunities to talk about Jesus with him… When he would say things about buddist beliefs that coincided with Jesus teachings, I told him so. I sounded like a parrot “Jesus taught us that…” or “Jesus said the same thing…”. Sometimes I think that this is all we need to do. Listening to what the Lord is whispering in one ear, listening to others with the other and being humble, respectful and non-judgemental in our hearts, so that TRUTH is revealed.

Thankyou for the prayers.
 
Yes, their may be corrupted priest in the Catholic Church, like Judas the betrayer, you must remember these are only men and men sin but never the Catholic Church, so please never say that the Catholic Church was corrupted saying what you Entree Gratuite have said, is calling Jesus Christ a Liar. Have you not read: Matt 16:18

When YOU say 'Catholic Church" it is obvious you mean the ‘infallable teachings’ of J.Christ proclaimed through the apostalic line (RCC)… and that to attack one, you attack the other. When Protestants say 'Catholic Church" they mean the fallable INSTITUITE that teaches the infallable teachings of J Christ. An institute that is separate from, and therefore susceptible to man’s corruption.
You are being unnecessarily defensive. The gates of hell will not prevail IN SPITE of wrong doing of those in authority in the RCC. Pope Urban ordered the murder of hundreds of Muslem men, women and children…do you think THIS was from God? Do you think this was an infallable directive? Do you think this reflected “love one another” or “thou shalt not kill”. Protestants misjudge the RCC as corrupt when, observing such sinful conduct of past Popes,(labled ‘inflallable’) assume the church it’s self is corrupt…when in truth it is only the humanity of the pope that is corrupt. The infallability of the Church has NOTHING to do with man (and his actions) and EVERYTHING to do with God’s Holy Spirit and the progression of God’s plan for all mankind. Protestants have a problem with some interpretations of morals and faith of which is the only claim to infallability by the RCC. This does not equate out to calling JC a liar…
 
Yes, their may be corrupted priest in the Catholic Church, like Judas the betrayer, you must remember these are only men and men sin but never the Catholic Church, so please never say that the Catholic Church was corrupted saying what you Entree Gratuite have said, is calling Jesus Christ a Liar. Have you not read: Matt 16:18

When YOU say 'Catholic Church" it is obvious you mean the ‘infallable teachings’ of J.Christ proclaimed through the apostalic line (RCC)… and that to attack one, you attack the other.

When Protestants say 'Catholic Church" they mean the fallable INSTITUITE that teaches the infallable teachings of J Christ. An institute that is separate from, and therefore susceptible to man’s corruption.
You are being unnecessarily defensive. The gates of hell will not prevail IN SPITE of wrong doing of those in authority in the RCC. Pope Urban ordered the murder of hundreds of Muslem men, women and children…do you think THIS was from God? Do you think this was an infallable directive? Do you think this reflected “love one another” or “thou shalt not kill”. Protestants misjudge the RCC as corrupt when, observing such sinful conduct of past Popes,(labled ‘inflallable’) assume the church it’s self is corrupt…when in truth it is only the humanity of the pope that is corrupt. The infallability of the Church has NOTHING to do with man (and his actions) and EVERYTHING to do with God’s Holy Spirit and the progression of God’s plan for all mankind. Protestants have a problem with some interpretations of morals and faith of which is the only claim to infallability by the RCC. This does not equate out to calling JC a liar…
Illusion,

Please! don’t judge The Popes, Let God deal with them… as he dealt with Judas the betrayer… You sound more like a Protestant than a Catholic. You have a proper name Illusion, for illusion distorts reality and that what you have done to my post, I never said murder was good, in my post.

I said Liar, and those who think there needs be another church because they believe that the first one failed, makes Jesus Christ out to be a liar!

Ufam Tobie
 
I said Liar, and those who think there needs be another church because they believe that the first one failed, makes Jesus Christ out to be a liar!

I didn’t condemn the popes or Urban…just stated fact. We are all sinners so saying he is a sinner is not judging him but again stating fact. You on the other hand have judged me and it seems, all protestants. And how it follows that their stance makes Jesus out to be a liar is judgment in it’s self. Here is an example of 1 protestant:-

Martin Luther (10 November 1483 – 18 February 1546) was a German priest, professor of theology and iconic figure of the Protestant Reformation.[1] He strongly disputed the claim that freedom from God’s punishment for sin could be purchased with money. He confronted indulgence salesman Johann Tetzel with his Ninety-Five Theses in 1517. His refusal to retract all of his writings at the demand of Pope Leo X in 1520 and the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V at the Diet of Worms in 1521 resulted in his excommunication by the pope and condemnation as an outlaw by the Emperor.

Luther taught that salvation is not earned by good deeds but received only as a free gift of God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ as redeemer from sin. His theology challenged the authority of the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge[2] and opposed sacerdotalism by considering all baptized Christians to be a holy priesthood.[3] Those who identify with Luther’s teachings are called Lutherans

By the above, Luther was very devout to what he believed to be truth. He was right to standup against the idea that salvation could be purchased. (again, corrupt church authority) He was right to have the bible accessable to the common folk in common language rather than latten that only the wealthy could read. But he was wrong not having faith in God to sort things out in His own time. Diologue would have been today’s proceedure. But back then you could be burned at the stake for using herbs to cure the sick. Before you judge so harshly, you should read the reasons why these splits occured in the first place and the circumstances that surrounded them. Most initial points of origin were indeed justified. It was the lack of faith in Gods process and self pride that pushed valid issues to the point of ultimatum. And if you honestly look at the issues involved, you would see the need for change. Thankfully, God’s faithfullness to His Church is constant (as He promised) and many of those divisive issues have been rectified. Today, the popes see dialogue with respect for one another as the faithful response.COLOR]
 
We should not attempt to thwart God’s will - attempt to frustrate His plan. God is the giver of life; it is He who determines the number of children a couple will have. Therefore, many see that contraception is attempting to thwart His plans. Just as there is no “one” passage proving the Trinity neither is there “one” proving contraception is not God’s will.

Are you looking for a secular legal response as to “when life begins”?..can’t help you there. However, I don’t think it takes an Einstein (or an interpretive authority) to recognize that if a woman is pregnant she has a life within her, therefore, we do not murder it.

There are plenty of people who take the name of the Lord and yet believe just about anything – the Bible isn’t inspired for one, there is no heaven or hell, gay marriage, etc. - and, sadly, that it is permissable to murder an unborn child….uh… “terminate the fetus”. However, these people are not Christians. They remind me of the women in Isa 4:1 "And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach."

I didn’t say that verse condemns contraception – only that many people do in fact read it, and other related passages that way. God has not condemned contraception in so many words. Therefore, some people take this as license to use it. It is my opinion, however, that these same people probably do not place their trust in God in all things and we are commanded to do so. Proverb 3:5 "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding."

It is unfortunate that so many Roman Catholics haven’t the slightest idea what sola Scriptura is, nevertheless, feel competent enough to comment. And sadly those who do know keep a stony silence rather than educate their brothers and sisters.

Very simply put it means “Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone) is the doctrine that the Holy Bible, being the Word of God, is the only infallible rule of faith and practice for Christians in the post-apostolic age.”

If you are interested, you can refer to this LINK for a fuller explanation and also find what sola Scripture is not.
I am seriously curious and have no intention of being sarcastic, but am I the only one here who thinks that Kelman is dodging my questions and making himself his own authority?
 
In the Revised Standard Version the II Timothy passage (3: 15), does read, “…from childhood you have been acquainted with the Sacred Writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus”. It is faith in Christ and His Church which will ultimately save a man eternally, not faith in a collection of books.
This seriously contradicts Scripture. No where do we find that “faith… in His Church” is a prerequisite for salvation. The “collection of books” which just happens to be the voice of God in written form proclaims that “faith in Jesus Christ” is what saves. If one insists that his church “saves”, he has not the faith or salvation about which God speaks.
The Rabbis always sat to teach; hence the metaphorical expression, “Moses’ seat”, which is still current today, speaks of a duly appointed exponent of a subject as occupying a professional ‘chair’. Our Lord acknowledged the claims of the scribes to be the exponents of the Law and insists that they are to be respected, even if the conduct of some of them is inconsistent with their teaching (S. Matt. 23: 2,3). Thus the term is actually primarily doctrinal in its meaning, not magisterial.
Not at all. Clearly, the Lord declared that those in “Moses’ seat” were “blind guides”, “brood of vipers” and on their way to hell(Mat 23:33). We see the Lord rejected their authority specifically their teaching about attire, demeanor, religious titles, and practice, etc. (Mat 23:4-31). The Lord harshly accuses them of not having the authority to teach when He said they “have seated themselves in the chair of Moses”. It is quite one thing to read and give the sense of Scripture but quite another to add “traditions” culled only from private judgment – this Jesus condemned. Christ objected to them assuming authority that wasn’t theirs to assume when they declared themselves Masters over the people…not unlike some do today – also without authority from God.

Yes, they scrupulously practiced their own “traditions”(again condemned by Christ), however, these practices “made the Scriptures of no avail”. ”This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; 9 in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines human precepts.”(Mat 15:9)

Better that we follow the words of the Apostle Peter when instructed to obey the “authority” of his day: ** "We must obey God rather than men.”** (Act 5:29) Today?..we can only find God’s authoritative infallible words in written inspired Scripture…unless, of course, you are prepared to present some others, are you?
You state that Protestants are taught by their church, but I am bound to ask, which church? Which of the Protestant ecclesial communions do I turn for an authoritative interpretation of Sacred Scripture?
That would be the church they belong to – just as you are taught by the ecclesial communion you belong to. One obvious caveat – there is no scriptural evidence that any man is capable of “infallibly” interpreting Scripture.
This would not have been an issue for Timothy, since he would have pointed us to the duly appointed exponents of the Law who alone must be listened to and respected. Our Lord would also have done the same, as we know He indeed did.
One has to ignore much of inspired Scripture to say the above. The Lord obeyed OT laws but showed nothing but contempt for the “authority” of that day as it continued to develope one unbiblical “tradition” after another.
As there were duly appointed exponents of religion in the O.T. economy so there is in the Gospel Age.
Absolutely, God is clear in any number of passages that He provides teachers, however, it is equally as clear that He does not provide for popes or magisteria.
The interpretative authority now has passed to the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church” founded upon St. Peter and transmitted to his lawful successors.
Need I repeat what Christ thought of these “authorities” who promulgated their own private judgments encapsulated in their “traditions”?
The Gospel in not simplicity itelf in the way that Protestants intend, for according to the “common people” there must be thousands of conflicting plans of the “way of salvation” and all supposedly revealed by the one Christ!
On the contrary, God is clear that the Gospel is indeed “simplicity itself” and tells us to beware those who would complicate the plan of God in salvation: ”But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”(2Cor 11:3).
This is the result of sola scriptura and an arrogant refusal to aknowledge that in the bible there are certain things “hard to be understood” and hence the need and necessity for an interpretative authority, as there was in the O.T. economy and is there is now in the Catholic Church.
Rather, if we see “arrogance”, it is demonstrated by a church who has, like the Pharisees, added to God’s inspired Scripture with its “traditions” – ”But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”. Is this not a perfect example that we see above?..the “simplicity” of Christ complicated by a church’s “traditions”? We dare not confound the salvation of God with one developed from our own private judgment. Btw, adding to Scripture is condemned in Rev 21:18 and with frightful consequences for those doing so.
 
The Protestant paradigm is of alien growth from the time of the Reformation and, with its multitude of denominations, bears no resemblance to either Jewish or Catholic model of one true Church with its lawful exponents of Sacred Scripture.
Actually, Protestant churches more clearly resemble the apostolic church for in them we see no popes or a magisterium – not to mention instituting one unbiblical tradition following another. It’s true you have modeled your church after the OT, however, we see that Jesus condemned them and said not to follow in the footsteps of the OT teaching “authority”. Jesus told the disciples in no uncertain terms not to pattern their governing authority after the “religious” leadership of His day. In fact, didn’t the Lord essentially condemn the later development of the Roman “magisterium” when He said the Apostles were not to be called “masters” (Mat 23:10)?
The Gospel in not simplicity itelf in the way that Protestants intend, for according to the “common people” there must be thousands of conflicting plans of the “way of salvation” and all supposedly revealed by the one Christ!
On the contrary, God is clear that the Gospel is indeed “simplicity itself” and tells us to beware of those who would complicate the plan of God in salvation: ”But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.”(2Cor 11:3).

One “way of salvation” we know Christ did not ordain is the Roman Catholic way - works can neither be the source of or an aid to salvation.
This is the result of sola scriptura and an arrogant refusal to aknowledge that in the bible there are certain things “hard to be understood” and hence the need and necessity for an interpretative authority, as there was in the O.T. economy and is there is now in the Catholic Church.
Rather, if we see “arrogance”, it is demonstrated by a church who has, like the Pharisees, added to God’s inspired Scripture with its “traditions” – ”But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.”. Is this not a perfect example that we see above?..the “simplicity” of Christ complicated by a church’s “traditions”? We dare not confound the salvation of God with one developed from our own private judgment. Btw, adding to Scripture is condemned in Rev 21:18 and with frightful consequences for those doing so.
Christ did indeed promise the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth, but, as you yourself acknowldeged, that promise was given to the Apostles only - and we Catholics would say to their successors also.
Except, of course, the Apostles never “handed-down” their apostolic office with its gifts. How could they?..it was given specifically to them and no one else. We find this demonstrated in Acts 8. God is so merciful, He gives us all we need to recognize false teachings. In these passages we see that Simon Magus understood that the “charism” of the Apostles could only be transferred by the Apostles. The one upon whom it was bestowed could not transfer to anyone else. So no, the Apostles had no “successors” in the RCC sense.
However, our Lord did not promise that the Holy Spirit would teach each individual separately.
Don’t know where you could possibly get that opinion. Of course that is the promise of God – that He will teach each and every one of His children. We find this taught very clearly in Scripture.
If every individual were under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then all who read Scripture sincerely and devoutly should come to the same conclusion.
I believe they do come to the same conclusions. There is unanimity among historic confessional Protestants that the essentials of the faith include the Trinitarian theology and Christology of the early church councils along with the principles of sola Scriptura, sola gratia, and sola fide. There is no disagreement on the nature of God or His salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Alas, they do not. In actual fact the frightful chaos that we witness in Protestantism today as to the meaning of the bible is proof positive that the Holy Spirit has not chosen this unsatisfactory way of leading men into all truth.
And I suppose the Holy Spirit chose to lead each of the churches which claim apostolic succession into different “all truth”? We have competing churches, both claiming apostolic succession, both claiming to be led into “all truth” and yet both churches disagree with each other on some very core Christian doctrines. No, the truth is simply that God promises that the Holy Spirit will enlighten us but no where does God promise infallibility.
 
True, the individual is guided by the Spirit to a certain extent in the ways of holiness, but as touching the knowledge of revealed truth he is guided by the Catholic Church, just as the Jews were guided by the one Church in the O.T. period and its duly appointed exponents.
More and more statements contradicting Scripture. God alone is the teacher of individuals – not those who consider themselves the “masters”:

John 6:45 ** It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.**

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. Mat 16:17)

Luke 10:21) ** In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.**

1Cor 10:10-14
**10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned **
You say that the Catholic Church is not without its chaos with regards to Scripture and its official documents. Can you kindly cite some examples of this chaos please.
It has been proven by the words of the popes themselves, this particular example in Unam Sanctam(1302) and as explained in the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia:”The Bull lays down dogmatic propositions on the unity of the Church, the necessity of belonging to it for the attainment of eternal salvation,…”.

And we see from the following these declarations were not limited to those within the church: * “It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.”* The Council of Florence

As taught in these proclamations and confirmed in still others, the RCC once taught that outside of itself there was no salvation…and now?.. it has totally changed this teaching on “faith and morals”….doctrinal chaos.

Roman Catholic men like Raymond Brown and Joseph Fitzmyer are “rebellious and worldly” because they offer scholarly historical work which contradicts the “facts” put out by the RCC. Interestingly these “rebellious” men have submitted their publications to the Censor Deputatus and both were appointed by the Pope to the Pontifical Biblical Commission so obviously private interpretation is tolerated – at least to some degree. Nothing wrong with judging a religious institution as much by what it informally tolerates as what it formally promulgates. That’s some of what I meant by “chaos”.

You claim “infallible” authority to interpret Scripture, however, it’s clear that the RCC hasn’t sucessfully interpreted its own writings – let alone that of Scripture. Seems like we need “an infallible interpreter of the infallible interpretation of the infallible Scriptures”.

In addition, you have RCC legislators and judges who promote abortion and yet no discipline is forthcoming – let alone excommunicating them…”chaos”. The Roman “chaos” could be thread unto its own.
 
When Christ established His Church upon St. Peter He said that “the gates of hades” would not prevail against it (S. Matt. 16: 18). However the forces of evil and of error would have prevailed against the Church had she not possessed the Charism of Infallibility.
Mat 16:18 says absolutely nothing about “infallibility”…you add totally foreign concepts to the verse – concepts it clearly does not speak to. This is precisely the problem – none of the verses you offer speak to the issue at hand. This is the methodology we see with those attempting to defend the RCC – the verses offered not only never say what is proposed - they, in fact, usually don’t even speak to the issue.
He sent His Church to teach in His name, and said, “He who hears you hears me” (S. Lk. 10: 16), and again, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will condemned” (S. Mk. 16: 16) Now, my dear brother, our Lord could not order men to believe the Church, with their very salvation at stake, and yet not guarantee His Church against the possibility of leading them into pernicious errors quite opposed to His holy doctrine.
Again, you simply present what you think God “should do” not anything He says He “will do”. The Lord did not order men to “believe the church”. God orders men to believe Scripture - not the church. Now, of course, if the church is preaching the true Gospel it is fulfilling its duty as the “pillar and ground of truth”. However, many do not preach the truths of Scripture. Instead they’ve developed their own “traditions” and preach these instead. Nevertheless, even today God still has faithful churches which do preach His Gospel. There’s absolutely no reason to suppose that Luke 10:16 is specific to your church. If one “hears” any church, which is preaching the Gospel, he is hearing Christ.
Moreover, when He commissioned the Church to go and teach all the nations, He promised to be with her until the end of the world (S. Matt. 28: 20), and He sent His Holy Spirit to keep her as the “pillar and ground of truth”. Surely all this precludes the possibility of a departure from the revealed truth; or, in other words, it constitutes a pledge of perpetual infallibility.
Let’s keep it simple. Find something specific in Scripture to give evidence for your “pledge of perpetual infallibility” rather than just what you think would be a good idea for God to do, okay? So far, we have seen nothing but the private opinions of men…unless, of course, you can demonstrate something specific from Scripture.
Catholics and High Anglicans believe in Baptismal Regeneration, but this biblical teaching is deemed heretical and “Romanist” by Presybyterian and Baptist churches and is said to invariably lead to a nominal form of religious profession, devoid of any true faith. Now this is by no means some peripheral issue since concerns the most important matter of a man’s salvation.
Baptismal regeneration is not a biblical doctrine. However, we need to define our terms. Regeneration is an instantaneous change affecting the whole person. It is a rebirth from death to life (Eph. 2.5), from darkness to light (Col. 1.13). Regeneration is not a process like sanctification. We are never between death and life, or darkness and light. Nor do we travel from death to life back to death again. At this very moment we are either spiritual alive or dead in our sins and trespasses. In Scripture, we see people are saved before water ever touched them - one example would be Cornelius.

We are not regenerated, made alive, cleansed or redeemed by water baptism. It is the new heart, given in regeneration, that Reformed scholars insist, enables the elect to see revealed truth for what it objectively is, for it is the new heart that illumines the mind to the spiritual beauty and “sweetness” of the truth that comes to it "through the door of the understanding. The “natural man” cannot spiritually receive the things of God. It takes the spiritual rebirth(regeneration), the giving of the new heart for man to spiritually receive the truth.

Christ mediates between the Father and the elect. If a person is baptized but does not have faith, Christ is not his mediator: he has no mediator… If a person is water baptized but never comes to faith, of what value is that baptism? No, the only baptism of with eternal consequences is that of the Holy Spirit.

A baptized person is only outwardly within the covenant if he does not have faith in Christ, just as the circumcized Jews were only outwardly within the covenant if they did not have faith. Outward covenant membership has many advantages, but none that are themselves saving.

Btw, my apologies, I’m very far behind in the posts…time has been a bit limited of late and I’m really not trying to hide from Josh’s questions…whatever they are!
 
@ Kelman: First of all Kelman, Christ be with you and I hope you’re having a very blessed morning so far and forgive me if I’m being obtuse. Here’s the thing, I wouldn’t dare say I have a tenth of the amount of scripture memorized that you do, nor sadly, Church Father’s quotes, etc.,etc. However, I will tell you the same thing I’ve told my brother, which is “quality over quantity.” IOW, if you have the entire bible memorized but are 100% wrong in your interpretations (I would never presume this because you appear very knowledgable) and I know one verse but interpret it correctly, then who really knows more scripture? If I want to discuss purgatory for example, we can’t because it’s in that “uninspired” section, and although we have MOUNDS of evidence for the inspiration of the deuterocanonical books, you claim to have just as much evidence against them, so in the end, if we have no infallible interpreter of scripture, it’s all a matter of opinion as to what “evidence” is correct and that’s a pretty big gamble imo. I would hope, that although you implied that I have an incorrect understanding of sola scriptura, you would not be so arrogant as to believe that just because one has a different opinion than you you should discredit his interpretation. Futhermore, you have what you believe to be the correct interpretation of scripture I presume? And yet when I spoke of my brother defending the use of contraception, you said, and I quote, “In my OPINION” and then gave your reasoning behind your argument as to why you BELIEVE contraception is wrong and again gave no direct proof from scripture. Lastly, using your logic of saying we have no way of being POSITIVE of what scripture says because the world has no infallible interpreter, then forgive me if I don’t take your OPINION as anything infallible.
 
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