Not the same God?

[PRmerger]

The problem is simple psychology. Cognitive dissonance prevents some from giving even that small acknowledgment to another faith tradition – that they worship the same God, however imperfectly. I don’t think you can argue people out of willful blindness, but I admire your efforts.

That is exactly right, TMC.

 

[Mickey]

The vast, vast majority of Catholics know and understand what the Church clearly teaches --that all Children of Abraham, including the Muslims, pray to the same God.

That’s odd. I find that the vast, vast majority of Catholics find that the Pope’s opinion here is incorrect.

 

[Mickey]

And as I said we should all take note.

Indeed!

 

[ByzCathCantor]

That’s odd. I find that the vast, vast majority of Catholics find that the Pope’s opinion here is incorrect.

My friend, it is surely possible that the majority of your Catholic friends feel this way, but I’m not sure this generalizes to the “vast, vast majority”, lest we have now become an entire population of “cafeteria Catholics”. Catholics are morally bound to understand and accept the teachings of the Catholic Church.

It’s much more than just the current Pontiff’s opinion. These teachings have been published as part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as many have quoted here in this thread. The CCC was published 19 years ago with the support of the entire Magisterium and is a compendium of Catholic thought and teaching.

I think we understand and respect your clearly, passionately and consistently stated opinion on this particular subject. That said, can you and our Orthodox friends posting here help us understand the formal teachings of the Orthodox Churches in this regard? I realize in asking that there may be some variations depending on jurisdiction, and reference to statements of hierarchs would be helpful.

Peace be with you!

 

[PRmerger]

That’s odd. I find that the vast, vast majority of Catholics find that the Pope’s opinion here is incorrect.

Just to be clear: this is not the Pope’s “opinion” but is part of the “sure norm” for the faith of Catholics.

It is proclaimed in our Catechism, which echoes the teaching from* Lumen Gentium.*

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Thus, use of the word “opinion” is a gross misrepresentation of the facts.

 

[Mickey]

Catholics are morally bound to understand and accept the teachings of the Catholic Church.

My friend…it is my understanding that the CCC and LG are not infallible documents. It is also my understanding that you are only bound to those writings that are linked to doctrine and/or past ex-catherdra infallible statements. I have never seen any proof that a papal opinion regarding the muslim’s god is something that Catholics are bound to believe.

It’s much more than just the current Pontiff’s opinion.

I think that it is a theological opinion. There is nothing prior to the 20th century that seems to echo these sentiments.

These teachings have been published as part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

I have been told that the CCC is not infallible except where it mirrors infallible teaching.

The CCC was published 19 years ago with the support of the entire Magisterium and is a compendium of Catholic thought and teaching.

Are you saying that everything in the CCC is infallible teaching?

I think we understand and respect your clearly, passionately and consistently stated opinion on this particular subject.

Thank you. And I know that there are many Catholics who agree with me. I would love to see a worldwide poll on the subject.

That said, can you and our Orthodox friends posting here help us understand the formal teachings of the Orthodox Churches in this regard?

I think I may be the only Orthodox posting on this thread…the others are RC or EC. As I have have stated prior…the Orthodox are mostly quiet on the subject. I’m sure there are varying opinions…but God forbid that a Patriarch or bishop would set forth an official document stating that the Christians and Muslims worship the same God!!!

 

[PRmerger]

My friend…it is my understanding that the CCC and LG are not infallible documents.

Not infallible does not equate to therefore it is “the pope’s opinion.”

 

[ByzCathCantor]

My friend…it is my understanding that the CCC and LG are not infallible documents. It is also my understanding that you are only bound to those writings that are linked to doctrine and/or past ex-catherdra infallible statements.

This is the view held by too many, but it is not correct. By that definition, Catholics would have to profess to very little.

And whether of not something is infallibly declared is sometimes very complex and confusing. Blessed Pope John Paul II, in issuing Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, is viewed by some (including the current Pontiff) to have expressed infallible teaching, yet it is unclear (even among canon lawyers) whether or not he spoke ex cathedra and expressed an infallible teaching or simply reiterated what he believed was a pre-existing infallible teaching of the Church.

In this specific example, would the Orthodox agree that Blessed Pope John Paul II’s definitive statement regarding the priesthood (that it is reserved for males only) is inconsistent with ancient teachings of Apostolic Churches at large? If an Orthodox Patriarch would make such a statement today in the form of a definitive declaration, wouldn’t that raise eyebrows for different reasons (as I would think most Orthodox would feel absolutely no need for such a statement, on such a well understood principle)?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Not infallible does not equate to therefore it is “the pope’s opinion.”

And would you also agree, as a fellow Catholic, that “not infallible” does not mean we are free to ignore it as teaching?

 

[PRmerger]

And would you also agree, as a fellow Catholic, that “not infallible” does not mean we are free to ignore it as teaching?

'zactly.

Reminds me of what Catholic Apologist Mark Shea rather cheekily calls “Minimum Daily Adult Requirement thinking.” That is, “Do I as a Catholic only have to believe something if it’s declared infallible?”

No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “**How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ. **Our goal, according to Scripture, is not to achieve bare minimums of love, fellowship and discipleship with Christ and His Bride, but to “attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;… we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love” (Ephesians 4:13-16). When people tell us “I’ll be there in spirit!” we know they mean “I won’t be there.” Similarly, a merely partial spiritual unity, while a good start, is a bad finish. That is why we must all continue to work toward full unity in Christ, neither denying our commonalities nor papering over our differences.

 

[Mickey]

This is the view held by too many, but it is not correct.

Can you show me where you are bound to every word in the CCC?

And whether or not something is infallibly declared is sometimes very complex and confusing.

Indeed.

would the Orthodox agree that Blessed Pope John Paul II’s definitive statement regarding the priesthood (that it is reserved for males only) is inconsistent with ancient teachings of Apostolic Churches at large?

But there is huge precedent for such discipline (see St John Chrysostom). I do not see such precedent for the 20th century “Muslims have the same God” teaching.

 

[PRmerger]

Can you show me where you are bound to every word in the CCC?

We are not bound “to every word in the CCC” but to the deposit of faith which is, of course, articulated in the CCC.

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent” which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

 

[PRmerger]

Can you show me where you are bound to every word in the CCC?

Incidentally, this is a rather cheeky proposition akin to a child asking his parent, “Can you tell me whether I’m supposed to listen to your every word, or only when you really, really mean it?”

 

[ByzCathCantor]

But there is huge precedent for such discipline (see St John Chrysostom). I do not see such precedent for the 20th century “Muslims have the same God” teaching.

I bring it up as an example only because you have raised as a central point that unless teachings are infallibly declared, they may be dismissed.

And yes, you are indeed correct. There is a huge precedent for such discipline.

So why did Blessed John Paul II have to even make such a declaration?

And if someone were to successfully conclude this isn’t an infallible teaching, do the seminaries open up to female candidates for the preisthood, as we are free to ignore the teaching?

 

[Mickey]

I bring it up as an example only because you have raised as a central point that unless teachings are infallibly declared, they may be dismissed.

Then let me clarify. You must accept those areas of teaching which are infallibly declared under pain of mortal sin. You would accept teachings that mirror past doctrinal declaration and Sacred Tradition as set forth by the consensus of the Fathers…correct? I do not see where the “Muslims have the same God” teaching applies into any of this.

So why did Blessed John Paul II have to even make such a declaration?

Are you asking for my opinion? I think he was over-reaching in his efforts at ecumenism.

And if someone where to successfully conclude this isn’t an infallible teaching, do the seminaries open up to female candidates for the preisthood, as we are free to ignore the teaching?

Are you saying that if it is okay to reject the Muslim teaching…that suddenly seminaries will be fighting off a rush for female candidates to the priesthood?!?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Are you saying that if it is okay to reject the Muslim teaching…that suddenly seminaries will be fighting off a rush for female candidates to the priesthood?!?

I’d try to answer, but I’m laughing too hard!

Again, your position is respected, and I’ll try to draw on inate EC “Orthodox instincts”, however much they may have been driven out of us (but now, of course, we’re not moving fast enough to restore them), to understand your points more clearly.

And at the risk of shooting myself in the foot, I’d share that it is hard for me personally to believe that Muslims may ever reconcile their own beliefs in the manner in which the Catholic Church holds out hope, but that essentially is the position. We hold out hope that they may one day see, know and come to accept the entire Truth.

We hopefully have a better chance in the near term for Catholic-Orthodox reconciliation!

 

[PRmerger]

Are you saying that if it is okay to reject the Muslim teaching…that suddenly seminaries will be fighting off a rush for female candidates to the priesthood?!?

Again with the mixing of the equations!

Christmas tree : ornament :: Earlobe : earring.
Or A : B :: a : b

You cannot take A and compare it to b.

Here: A = the Church’s teaching on Muslims
and a = the Church’s teaching on women’s ordination

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

rinnie;8922009]Nope, never made that claim at all. The Teaching of Islam has very litttle to do with the fullness of the truth. Never said it did

.

Understood, yet the CCC addresses the **professed faith of Muslims **from the Faith of Abraham in one God. The CCC never addresses the god of Islam, the CCC is addressing the faith of Muslims.

The question seems to KEEP getting lost. Is the God of Muhammad a false god?

“YES”, of Muhammed and Islam. “NO” of the Muslims who profess faith in the one God of Abraham’s faith.

The CCC states that together with US THEY ADORE The one true God

.

Amen, and we do adore the one true God with Muslims who profess the faith of Abraham in the one true God. The CCC never discloses that we adore the one true diety of Muhammed’s faith from Islam’s diety.

The CCC is not addressing Muhammed faith nor Islam. The CCC is addressing the “professed faith of Muslims” in the faith of Abraham in One God.

Now if they have a false god, because they had a false teacher, what does that have to do with them praying to the true God of Abraham. And how does a false teacher make the God false.

There are many perspectives you introduce here. In keepping with the Op “is the Christian God the same God of Islam”?

Muslims profess the faith of Abraham in one God. If you start and finish with the professed faith of Muslims in Abrahams faith, it is from here Muslims with us adore the one True God of Abraham.

Never from the Muhammeds god, nor Islams god. Unless Islam teaches and not profess the faith in the God of Abraham. But Islam does not teach this, otherwise the Muslims would be circumcised and become Jews.

Muhammed comes long after Abraham and Jesus. Jesus reveals the God of Abraham from his gospels. Abrahams faith foreshadowed and points too Jesus Christ. What Muhammed does is acknowledge Jesus as a man prophet of God and rejects Jesus revealed divinity and crucifixion, Muhammed believed Jesus was never the Word of God became flesh. Muhammed’s faith in Islam reveals a different god from Abraham’s God. What Islam proclaims is belief in One God. But the demons believe in One God and tremble.

Muhammed becomes a false teacher because he denies the revelations of God’s only begotten Son Jesus Christ. And teaches of another god that never involves the Word of God becoming flesh, when this revelation is now manifested in Muhammed time. Islam teaches that Jesus is not God incarnate. If Islam’s god is not revealed in God incarnate? Then who is this god that Islam proclaims to be the one true God?

If Islams god was the same God of Abrahams, then they would be Jewish, yet Islam claims to one faith in One God and believes that the Jews and Christians got it all wrong “were decieved”. Although it is the Muslim themselves whom the CCC addresses who profess faith in Abrahams faith in one God. From this Muslim professed faith in Abrahams faith in One God, can begin a road of reconciliation, communication, revelation and understanding.

When the Muslim leaves the faith of Abraham’s God for Muhammed’s Islam’s god, then we have two different dieties.

SO then what you are saying is this, If you do not have the fullness of the truth, believe in a false teaching your God has to be a false god, Right?

No I would never say that; I believe God has revealed the fullness of Truth in His Son Jesus. Jesus has deposited to his Church by revelation the full deposit of faith in himself which is the fullness of Truth and Grace.

The CCC recognizes some revealed truth in other religions that search, among the shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved…all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel”.

That is why the CCC addresses the Muslim’s faith in Abraham not Islam, Yet Islam enslaves Muslims from hearing and learning the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus under punishment.

Cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont; reply to rinnie post

What did the JPll say about their teaching? In my own words he said this.

He said we both profess the faith of Abraham and adore the one true God, He also said apart from that we pretty much part ways. He said because of a false prophet they have pretty much been led astray from the truth.

Everything I have stated here never conflicts with JPII statements in regards to the Muslims faith of Abraham.

But the Truth they do have is this. The ONE TRUE GOD the creator of heaven and earth. That is the God they pray to and believe in.

Amen, so long as it is the faith in the one true God of Abraham. On a side note one can interpet Islam not believing in the same God of Abraham, but Islam believing in One God, as Abraham believed in One God, but not the same God. Because if Islam believed in Abrahams God, why would Islam correct the God of Abraham?

But they don’t believe Muhammad is a god, they believe in the same God as us, but they follow the teachings of a false prophet.

Muslims who profess to have the “FAITH” of Abraham having faith in ONE GOD. This is the same God we adore together.

When a Muslim professes to believe in the god of Muhammed who corrected Abrahams God from Islam. Then we are speaking of two different dieties.

So are you willing to say that the One God the creator of heaven and earth is false? I’m not, and neither is our Church

.

No, and neither is the Muslim from the faith of Abrahams in his one God. But Islam teaches that it’s one god creater does not have the power , will and love to become flesh in order to save man, and Islam’s god never did. Islam’s god is not the same God promised to Abraham a son, revealed in the fullness of time in Jesus God incarnate.

Now answer me this, if they have a false god, how can we together adore the One True God, and we adore the One true God, but they don"t? The CCC says we TOGETHER

.

I think I answered this above? I hoped to draw the distinct difference between the Muslims professed faith in Abrahams “faith” in one God the creator, from this faith together with us we “adore” God our creator together, The CCC does not teach that we adore together with Muslims who profess to have faith in the god of Muhammed. When Islam’s teaching denies our faith in the One True God who revealed Himself in the Son.

Why does it not say we, apart from the Muslims, adore the One true God?

Muslims are people with a discipline to God who profess the faith of Abraham, from this professed Muslim faith we are not apart in adoring the creator in God.

ANd how does that say that have the full truth revealed to them by the One True God? It never stated that. It only stated they do not pray to a false God, that they pray the true God the same as us.

I can’t find in the CCC anywhere it states “we pray to the same God as us”? It states after the Mulsims faith in Abraham, “holding” to the faith of Abraham together with us they adore the one merciful God…

The CCC never states the Muslims do not pray to false God. Can you reveal where the CCC states this?

Thousands of religions have the ONE TRUE GOD, and do not have half of the true teachings. But that is not what we are saying here is it?

Thousands of religions possessing of people seek ways to find our Creator. It is the people in these religions whom the Father seeks out to reveal his son, who is “unknown to them”, but near to them because God gives them life and breath, who have shadows and images. That is why Jesus commissioned his Church to bring the “Light” to them who can illuminate what is foreshadowed or announced in their religions.

Peace be with you

 

[ByzCathCantor]

“YES”, of Muhammed and Islam. “NO” of the Muslims who profess faith in the one God of Abraham’s faith.

Begging forgiveness, I’m having trouble following this one. Perhaps its the use of terminology.

Isn’t a Muslim a follower of Islam?

It seems illogical that being Muslim, one’s beliefs are reconcilable to faith in the God of Abraham, yet Islam is not reconcilable.