Not the same God?

[John_Paul_Jones]

I completely disagree with this statement, and until you attend another Christian denomination for some time, I don’t think you should generalize them all. Many Protestant denominations know quite a lot about God and more so that some Catholics.

It would had been better worded if the poster said that the Catholic Church contain the fullness of Truth and acknowledges all Truths as reveal by God (where some Protestant denomination do not), not that Catholics know more.

 

[kelman]

Or put another way - that they do not worship the True God in the proper way.

The Jews, our elder brothers in faith, and whom have worshiped the one God - the Father - for some thousands of years before the coming of Christ…Do you believe that they too do not worship the “True God” because they do not accept the Son?
Or would you rather say that they worship the True God, but not in the proper way - or perhaps they worship him in a way that is less enlightened…

Peace
James

Well, that’s what the Bible says - if you don’t honor the Son, you do not honor the Father. Or, we see in IJohn 2:22-23: **“Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” **

If Muslims and Jews believe in a one-person deity, that is what they worship, and in no way can we logically argue that they worship with us the Holy Trinity.

 

[kelman]

Dear kelman,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Hope all is well.

Muslims do indeed worship the true God, but in the wrong manner.

Not according to the Bible, not according to how God reveals Himself.

Whilst Islam, along with Judaism and Christianity, is one of the three great monotheistic religions of the world, all looking to Abraham in one way or another as the founder of their faith, there are many serious problems with this man-made religion.

Looking to “Abraham” has no relation to worshipping the one true God. While Christianity, Judaism and Islam may be monotheistic religions, only Christianity worships the one true God. So despite the monotheistic appearances, we do not have the same God. Scripture affirms that this One God(whom Christians worship) eternally exists in three Persons(1 Peter 1:2; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3-4; Mat 28:19). Neither the Jews or the Muslims worship this God.

Surely Pope Paul VI would have been fully aware of all this and much more. Moreover, I am certain that he would have realized that any stable, effective religious collaboration between the Catholic Church and Islam was jolly problematic, to say the very least.

But surely making what amounts to an unbiblical claim is not the way the Gospel is to be brought to people… for the sake of peace, collaboration and ecumenicalism?

**“Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” ** We cannot, or at least should not, ignore all the Scriptures which demand that if one does not honor the Son, he does not honor the Father. There simply is no god apart from Jesus Christ. We should never be willing to obscure Scripture for the sake of “getting along”. Engaging in religious relativism is never the answer.

The Bible is clear, Jesus Christ is God, so no, it’s not possible that Muslims and Jews worship the same God as do Christians. They do not ”adore the one God ,….” They do not honor the God of the Bible, in fact, it should be clear that they deny the one true God.

As we saw previously in I John 2:22-23: **“Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” **

To the Christian, Allah cannot be the biblical God since the inspired NT record teaches that anyone denying the Father and Son as God is Antichrist. How can Mulims share in God’s salvation plan if they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Savior of the World?

 

[JRKH]

Well, that’s what the Bible says - if you don’t honor the Son, you do not honor the Father. Or, we see in IJohn 2:22-23: "Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

If Muslims and Jews believe in a one-person deity, that is what they worship, and in no way can we logically argue that they worship with us the Holy Trinity.

kelman,
Thank you for your response both to me and to Portrait. You make some compelling points from Scripture.

In response I can only offer that there are various levels of “knowledge” and understanding that we should keep in mind in these matters that can effect culpability.

OT Jews in and out of proper worship.
In the matter of the Jews worshiping the “same God” it seems that Scripture is clear that the One True God (I AM) IS the God of Israel but that often times the the nations heart was far from Him. Yet when they repented and returned…He forgave and lifted them up. This is the same God (I AM) that the Jew worships today.

Vincible and Invincible ignorance
There is the matter of ignorance of Christ which can take many forms and levels. I fear that even among Christians there can be some rather odd understandings of Christ. The Mormon’s and JW’s claim to follow Christ yet do not recognize Him as we do.
Yes -yes - I know - Trinitarian Christians reject these as truly Christian sects, yet in the realm of how Christ is understood…we cannot ignore such viewpoints either.

Outright denial vs no knowledge or skewed knowledge
The above plays into the idea of whether one does or does not have a true and proper understanding of actually who Christ is. So what does one do with people who - have not “denied Christ” but rather have a) never been exposed to Christ in the way that the Jews in Palestine had been when Jesus spoke the words you have quoted and/or b) have never been exposed to the Gospel as passed down to us today.

There are many who fit in this category. Some even in the U.S. where one would expect that nearly everyone would be exposed to Christ. Yet just last night, on the “Journey Home” program on EWTN, I listened to a convert from Judaism relate that all through her growing up life she never was exposed to Jesus. She was raised in a devout “conservative Jewish” home in a predominantly Jewish neighborhood near Chicago. Of course she had heard the “name” but had no idea real who He was until well into her collage years.
Her brother, who we can assume was raised in the same manner died in a car crash when she was still in high school. If we assume that he too had never been exposed to Jesus, then how can anyone say that he had rejected Jesus.

Then of course we have all those people who live in places where it is illegal to be Christian. They are raised up, at least nominally, in the Muslim faith and only exposed to Jesus through the lens of Islam…Have these ever been exposed to the True Jesus???

Sorry to go on and on…But it is important to recognize that there can be varying levels of culpability in these matters. That is why the Church, in the Catechism is careful to distinguish between those who actually “reject” Christ, and those who have never truly been exposed to Him.

I hope that my rambling makes some sense to you…
Kind of early in the morning here…:yawn:
Where’s my coffee…:coffeeread:

Peace
James

 

[Kristin234]

As St. Paul has warned, many would preach a Jesus Christ other than the ones they preach. And you can see it clearly today in these Protestant faiths, preaching a Jesus Christ who seem to be different than the one that was taught by the Apostles. There’s a Jesus Christ who’s accepting of divorce, a Jesus Christ who’s accepting of gay marriage and the gay lifestyle, a Jesus Christ who allows sinfulness. All these of course are not the real Jesus Christ, not the one that the Apostles have taught. Not just because one is called “Jesus” and resembles the one we read in scripture, doesn’t mean this is the real Jesus Christ taught by the Apostles.

As I am sure you know, not all Protestants teach or believe this. That is a nice generalization you make there. Pretty offensive too.

I am completely against divorce and so is my church.I am against gay marriage and the gay life style and so is my church. We definitely do not believe that sin is okay and we know that when you sin you must repent and ask for forgiveness.

 

[A_G]

We Catholics do believe in the same God as Orthodox and most Protestant denominations. There are however other Christians (and so-called Christians as well) that claim to believe in the same God as we do, but they do not understand His message. These are the denominations that claim God agrees with abortion, gay lifestyle, euthanasia as a right…and so on. So although most of them believe in the same God as we do, they do not understand (or do not want to understand for whatever reason) His message.

 

[Portrait]

Not according to the Bible, not according to how God reveals Himself.

Looking to “Abraham” has no relation to worshipping the one true God. While Christianity, Judaism and Islam may be monotheistic religions, only Christianity worships the one true God. So despite the monotheistic appearances, we do not have the same God. Scripture affirms that this One God(whom Christians worship) eternally exists in three Persons(1 Peter 1:2; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3-4; Mat 28:19). Neither the Jews or the Muslims worship this God.

But surely making what amounts to an unbiblical claim is not the way the Gospel is to be brought to people… for the sake of peace, collaboration and ecumenicalism?

**“Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” ** We cannot, or at least should not, ignore all the Scriptures which demand that if one does not honor the Son, he does not honor the Father. There simply is no god apart from Jesus Christ. We should never be willing to obscure Scripture for the sake of “getting along”. Engaging in religious relativism is never the answer.

The Bible is clear, Jesus Christ is God, so no, it’s not possible that Muslims and Jews worship the same God as do Christians. They do not ”adore the one God ,….” They do not honor the God of the Bible, in fact, it should be clear that they deny the one true God.

As we saw previously in I John 2:22-23: **“Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” **

To the Christian, Allah cannot be the biblical God since the inspired NT record teaches that anyone denying the Father and Son as God is Antichrist. How can Mulims share in God’s salvation plan if they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Savior of the World?

Dear kelman,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response to my post.

As regards Islam Allah is God - the same God the Jews and Christians know and worship, this admits of no doubt. Islam is not only a Western, theisitic religion rather than an oriental, pantheistic religion, but it is founded explicitly on the historical revelation of the God of the Jews, tracing itself to Ishmael, to whom God also promised special blessings. True, Muslims may vehemently and openly deny the Holy Trinity, yet, notwithstanding, because they worship the same God as we Christians, they do worship the triune God, even if they overtly deny and reject that doctrine.

Whilst no man can be saved except through Christ (S. Jn. 14: 6; Acts 4: 12), Christ is also the eternal, preexistent word of God, “which enlightens every man who comes into the world” (S. Jn. 1: 9). Thus Socrates, for example, was able to know Christ as the word of God and as eternal Truth. Now if the fundamental option of his deepest heart was to reach out to Him as Truth, in faith, hope and love, however imperfectly known this Christ was to Socrates, then Socrates could have been saved by Christ also. We are not, dear friend, saved by knowledge but by faith. Sacred Scripture nowhere says how explicit the intellectual content of faith has to be, but it does clearly say who the one true Saviour of the world is.

What it is important to remember is that if a Muslim is saved within his religion, then he is saved not by the false religion of Islam but in spite of it, on account of the saving merits of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. The salvability of Muslims, as with un-evangelised generally, is also, as has been observed already, wrapped up with such questions as how much a man has been bred in ignorance or error and what is his level of culpability etc. However, who are we, mere mortal and sinful men, to exclude any individual from the benefit of Christ’s Redemption, that is simply not our perogative?

The Second Vatican council adopted a position on comparaative religions that distinguished Catholicism from both modernist relativism and fundamentalist exclusivism. It taught on the one hand that there is much deep wisdom and value in the world’s religions and that the Christian should learn from them and respect them. However, it quite correctly taught that the claims of Christ and the Church can never be lessened, compromised or, God forbid, relativised.

However, to conclude on a positive note, you are quite right my brother to warn of a false ecumenism and unworthy collaboration. It is indeed a very spurious charity that engages with Islam in insipid irenic dialogue, without ever making clear the need and necessity for conversion. Muslims, like everyone else, need the healing balm of the Gospel, thus it is a very warped charity that would frown upon any proselytism and so deprive men of the means of salvation to Christ and His Church. Whilst it is good to adopt, where at all possible, a concilliatory approach by indicating the various points of contact between Islam and Christianity, this must never blind one to the fact that there are insupperable obstacles that preclude any meaningful dialogue and hence progress. The centrality and finality of Christ and the Gospel must be preserved and it must be maintained that other religions, irrespective of any merits they may have, are not themselves salvific. If God does finally save any adherent of Islam, then it is inspite of his religion and not because of it.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

The same God!
The same God!

And I think those who follow the Jewish religion, the Buddhist religion…etc…that is the same God, too.
Not sure what others here think on that? Or what the, um, “official” position is on that?

After all, if we are taught there is only one God, then there is only one God. Period.
Even if someone else has a different way of trying to get to that God…it’s still, just one God, is it not?

God is God. No matter how differently someone wants to dress Him up or give a different name to call Him…

Undress it and call it relativism. This is absolutley foreign to Christianity. There is only one name under heaven by which man can be saved, Jesus. There is no room here to pretty it up to make others feel included. Jews, deny the Christ and the Trinity (not the same God) Buddhism is pretty much an atheistic set of beliefs (read deeper), Islam (do I even need to continue?). God gave Himself a name, I am that I am. It is beyond us to “dress Him up or give a different name to call Him.” What you state is the religion of antichrist. (I am not calling you antichrist or trying to put you down in any way, shape or form. I would simply urge you to pray diligently. God is above our logic, but not our faith!)

 

[Marybeloved]

Not according to the Bible, not according to how God reveals Himself.

Looking to “Abraham” has no relation to worshipping the one true God. While Christianity, Judaism and Islam may be monotheistic religions, only Christianity worships the one true God. So despite the monotheistic appearances, we do not have the same God. Scripture affirms that this One God(whom Christians worship) eternally exists in three Persons(1 Peter 1:2; Titus 2:13; Acts 5:3-4; Mat 28:19). Neither the Jews or the Muslims worship this God.

But surely making what amounts to an unbiblical claim is not the way the Gospel is to be brought to people… for the sake of peace, collaboration and ecumenicalism?

**“Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” ** We cannot, or at least should not, ignore all the Scriptures which demand that if one does not honor the Son, he does not honor the Father. There simply is no god apart from Jesus Christ. We should never be willing to obscure Scripture for the sake of “getting along”. Engaging in religious relativism is never the answer.

The Bible is clear, Jesus Christ is God, so no, it’s not possible that Muslims and Jews worship the same God as do Christians. They do not ”adore the one God ,….” They do not honor the God of the Bible, in fact, it should be clear that they deny the one true God.

As we saw previously in I John 2:22-23: **“Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is Antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” **

To the Christian, Allah cannot be the biblical God since the inspired NT record teaches that anyone denying the Father and Son as God is Antichrist. How can Mulims share in God’s salvation plan if they do not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, Savior of the World?

How would you explain Paul saying in sacred scripture that the Greek thoroughly polytheistic idolaters at Corinth worshiped the true God without knowing it?

 

[Alfonsus]

If the understanding of Christ varies, then each variation is an understanding of a different Christ. Remember, Jesus is not a mere human being who people can have different understanding of. Because God is more than we can comprehend, we cannot have any other understanding of God other than what He has revealed to us. If despite the revelations we think differently, then we are following the wrong Jesus.

In other words, if you know me differently than my mom know me, although I’m standing at the same time in front of you and my mom, then I’m practically are two?

This is a kind of philosophy that said that reality is exist according to the beholder. Thus no objective reality exists.
But the Church said, God is an objective reality, a true person. People may understand his attributes, know Him more or less, but the same person (God) that they talk about and talk to.

Otherwise, my God perhaps is different than your God, although we are Catholic.
My niece’s God is different than mine, although we go to the same Church, simply because my niece have undeveloped understanding of who God is compared to my understanding of God.

Or a dumb person, who can’t comprehend God, but going to the Church with his mother is basically worship a different God than his mother beside him, because he is unable to comprehend who God is like his mother.

Well, I’m not as knowledgeable as Pope Benedict is. My spiritual life is not as advance as he is. I perhaps will never understand lots of things the Church have to say regarding Christ. Is this make me worship different Christ than the Pope?

 

[kelman]

kelman,
Thank you for your response both to me and to Portrait. You make some compelling points from Scripture.

In response I can only offer that there are various levels of “knowledge” and understanding that we should keep in mind in these matters that can effect culpability.

OT Jews in and out of proper worship.
In the matter of the Jews worshiping the “same God” it seems that Scripture is clear that the One True God (I AM) IS the God of Israel but that often times the the nations heart was far from Him. Yet when they repented and returned…He forgave and lifted them up. This is the same God (I AM) that the Jew worships today.

Jews today and for 2,000 years(except for the remnant saved by grace-Rom 11:5) have knowingly and willfully rejected Jesus Christ and according to the Bible this means they do not worship God the Father. In fact, from the beginning of His ministry, the Lord described the house of Israel as “lost sheep”.

Even in the OT, I find Solomon an interesting case in point. Later in his life, when he worshipped all those false gods, he also continued to pray to “the God of Israel”. Can it be said that He worshipped the true God?..I don’t believe so.

Peter, who was the Apostle sent to reveal Christ to the Jews, seems very clear in the following verses that without belief in Jesus Christ there is no salvation:

Acts 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Acts 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If the Jews believe in a one-person deity, that is what they worship, and in no way can we logically argue that they worship with us the Holy Trinity.

Vincible and Invincible ignorance
There is the matter of ignorance of Christ which can take many forms and levels. I fear that even among Christians there can be some rather odd understandings of Christ. The Mormon’s and JW’s claim to follow Christ yet do not recognize Him as we do.
Yes -yes - I know - Trinitarian Christians reject these as truly Christian sects, yet in the realm of how Christ is understood…we cannot ignore such viewpoints either.

True, we can’t ignore these viewpoints but neither can we give them any credibility by saying they just lack the proper understanding of who God is. The God of Abraham is a God that exists as three eternally distinct persons and this is something that both Jews and Muslims clearly, willfully and knowingly reject.

Outright denial vs no knowledge or skewed knowledge
The above plays into the idea of whether one does or does not have a true and proper understanding of actually who Christ is. So what does one do with people who - have not “denied Christ” but rather have a) never been exposed to Christ in the way that the Jews in Palestine had been when Jesus spoke the words you have quoted and/or b) have never been exposed to the Gospel as passed down to us today.

Those who are ignorant of Christ are lost not because of their ignorance but because of their sins.

Then of course we have all those people who live in places where it is illegal to be Christian. They are raised up, at least nominally, in the Muslim faith and only exposed to Jesus through the lens of Islam…Have these ever been exposed to the True Jesus???

Sorry to go on and on…But it is important to recognize that there can be varying levels of culpability in these matters. That is why the Church, in the Catechism is careful to distinguish between those who actually “reject” Christ, and those who have never truly been exposed to Him.

I agree there are levels of culpability, nevertheless, the result is the same. The Bible demonstrates that God can take the heathen out of his situation so that he might be saved. Rehab and Ruth are good examples of this. So, we can rest assured that all God intends to save will be saved.

Btw, how do you reconcile the teachings of past popes and councils which boldly declared that all “Jews and heretics and schismatics” are condemned to eternal damnation?

• "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”* Source: Papal Bull Cantate Domino, by Pope Eugene IV, 1441.

 

[kelman]

Dear kelman,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response to my post.

As regards Islam Allah is God - the same God the Jews and Christians know and worship, this admits of no doubt. Islam is not only a Western, theisitic religion rather than an oriental, pantheistic religion, but it is founded explicitly on the historical revelation of the God of the Jews, tracing itself to Ishmael, to whom God also promised special blessings. True, Muslims may vehemently and openly deny the Holy Trinity, yet, notwithstanding, because they worship the same God as we Christians, they do worship the triune God, even if they overtly deny and reject that doctrine.

A connection to Ishmael via Abraham is not evidence of worshipping the true God. Jesus says that had these people truly known Abraham, if Abraham was their father, they would not reject Him.

John 8:39-41
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

We are not, dear friend, saved by knowledge but by faith. Sacred Scripture nowhere says how explicit the intellectual content of faith has to be, but it does clearly say who the one true Saviour of the world is.

I have never claimed that we are saved by knowledge. Nevertheless, one either worships the true God or he does not. As for “intellectual content of faith”, we find that God can save the babe in the womb(Luke 1:15,41). The intellect is not the main seat of faith the spirit is.

What it is important to remember is that if a Muslim is saved within his religion, then he is saved not by the false religion of Islam but in spite of it, on account of the saving merits of our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

We simply don’t find Jesus, or the rest of the Bible, teaching that salvation outside of faith in Him is possible. No Muslim, Jew, Hindu, etc. can be saved without believing on the Lord Jesus for salvation. Christ is very clear on this matter so we may never attempt to change His teachings.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

However, who are we, mere mortal and sinful men, to exclude any individual from the benefit of Christ’s Redemption, that is simply not our perogative?

We do not exclude anyone from salvation, however, God does as the above verses insist.

 

[JRKH]

Jews today and for 2,000 years(except for the remnant saved by grace-Rom 11:5) have knowingly and willfully rejected Jesus Christ and according to the Bible this means they do not worship God the Father. In fact, from the beginning of His ministry, the Lord described the house of Israel as “lost sheep”.

So are you saying that all Jews for the last 2000 have knowingly and willfully rejected Jesus Christ? If you remember, in my post I gave an example of a girl and her brother who was raised in a devout Conservative Jewish home and had never been exposed to Jesus or to His teachings…So how could they have rejected Him?
This is the thing that we must be careful about in saying that this or that “group” has rejected Christ as opposed to being ignorant of Him.

As to “lost sheep” Even a “Lost Sheep” can remember and desire the true shepherd…

Even in the OT, I find Solomon an interesting case in point. Later in his life, when he worshipped all those false gods, he also continued to pray to “the God of Israel”. Can it be said that He worshipped the true God?..I don’t believe so.

Indeed - but false gods are false and the True God is True. By worshiping the God if Israel Solomon worshiped the True God - But he worshiped Him “Falsely”…Do you see what I mean?

Peter, who was the Apostle sent to reveal Christ to the Jews, seems very clear in the following verses that without belief in Jesus Christ there is no salvation:

In quoting these it is important to remember that the audience consisted of those who would have known of the events that had taken place in Jerusalem a scant 50 days before.
This is not to deny Peter’s words, but simply to place them within their proper context.
Peter - Paul - and I’m sure others, would go into the synagogues to preach and thus one could say that the Jews of that time truly had the choice placed before them. Such is not the case today.

If the Jews believe in a one-person deity, that is what they worship, and in no way can we logically argue that they worship with us the Holy Trinity.

The Jews believe in a Single God just as we do.

True, we can’t ignore these viewpoints but neither can we give them any credibility by saying they just lack the proper understanding of who God is. The God of Abraham is a God that exists as three eternally distinct persons and this is something that both Jews and Muslims clearly, willfully and knowingly reject.

I agree - Those Jews and Those Muslims who have examined the evidence and teachings and rejected them HAVE willfully and knowingly rejected them. Likewise those who willfully shut their ears and eyes to any Loving witness to the Gospel likewise is in great peril. However there remain many who are truly seeking God in Love, in worship and in the manner and understanding in which they were raised. One cannot say that such individuals “willfully and knowingly reject” the Trinity.

I agree there are levels of culpability, nevertheless, the result is the same. The Bible demonstrates that God can take the heathen out of his situation so that he might be saved. Rehab and Ruth are good examples of this. So, we can rest assured that all God intends to save will be saved.

And this is just what the Church teaches. That God can save who He will and do so regardless of their condition of “knowledge” or situation. From the Catechism we have:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation
CCC 847 Lumen Gentium 16

Btw, how do you reconcile the teachings of past popes and councils which boldly declared that all “Jews and heretics and schismatics” are condemned to eternal damnation?

• "The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”*

Source: Papal Bull Cantate Domino, by Pope Eugene IV, 1441.
Frankly I don’t attempt to “reconcile” these things. Others, more intelligent and charged with such matters have done this for me and the results are contained within the Catholic Church Catechism and in various documents upon which the Catechism is built.
The Church, founded by Christ, has the authority to bind and loose…whatever. Since Christ gave her this authority and promised both Himself and the Holy Spirit to guide her, I do well to place my Trust in Christ, through His Church.
I’m sure that this answer is not satisfactory to you, but I offer it to give you a fuller understanding of my outlook on such matters.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Kelman,

I just want you to know that I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut here and do not discount it. I think that we all have more to learn from each other. Places like this, as well as our own local visible communities speak strongly to the importance of “Ekklesia” - a people called out for council - in these matters. Such “free for all” type debates as these help us all to come to better understandings.

Your quotes from Scripture are wonderful, but when I see Scripture I see some other quotations that I think are very important in understanding how we are to act, and how we are to approach others. I refer to the very basic underpinning of all which is “Agape” - Love.

St John tells us that “God is Love” and that he who knows Love knows God (1 John4:7-8)
Jesus Himself tells us that Love is the root of All the Law and All the Prophets (Mt 22:36-40)
St Paul tells us that Love is supreme among the virtues - greater even than faith (1 Cor 13-13)

The seed of such Love is planted in every human soul. If it is found, understood and nurtured, the person grows in the knowledge of God, whether He know God by name or not. We know the tree by it’s fruit. If the fruit of one is Love, then this one knows God, whether formally or not - for God is Love.
If the Fruit is not Love - then that one does no know God - So it is written in Scripture.

So I say here that we should indeed seek to share the Gospel with each other. We should seek to evangelize all who have not known the Gospel or who have been exposed to a corrupted Gospel. But this must be done through Love and out of the Abundance of Love that we have received through grace as a free gift from God.

Without Love - we are nothing…So says the Holy Spirit of God through the great apostle Paul…

Peace
James

 

[Contarini]

If all gods were the same God, then God would have no need to say “Thou shalt have no other Gods before me.” After all, an ancient Egyptian worshiping Ra was still worshiping God.

All gods are not God.

But many pagans recognize some kind of supreme Divinity that is beyond the gods, and this Christians have always recognized as the same as our God.

See Acts 17 for a Biblical example (I’m not just talking about the “unknown God” reference, which can be interpreted in several ways, but about Paul’s readiness to quote pagan poetry talking about the Divine Nature and ascribe this to the true God).

The tricky question is when pagans identify one of their traditional gods with this supreme Divinity in some way. I would say at that point that they neither simply are nor simply are not worshiping the true God. (Classical and post-classical Hindu views of Vishnu and Shiva would be one example–possibly some forms of ancient Egyptian paganism also would be, though that’s harder to analyze.)

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Undress it and call it relativism.

It is quite the reverse of relativism.

Relativism says that there is no absolute truth.

It can’t possibly be “relativism” to say that there is, objectively, one God worshiped (even if imperfectly) by members of different religions.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

It’s a bit strange because if our God *is the same *then either we are all going to hell or they are all going to hell.

Can you explain how you came to this conclusion, and how it follows from God being the same? If true, it would surely be even truer if one party worshiped a false god!

I think you have fallen into a confusion many people fall into–assuming that if one worships the true God, then everything one believes about God must be true. I fail to see how this follows. It is quite possible to worship the true God and believe many things about Him that are not true.

Historically Christians have generally cast the net pretty wide on this one, acknowledging any concept of God that is incorporeal, supreme, morally perfect, unique, and creative as pointing to the true God. Furthermore, we naturally think that Old Testament Hebrews worshiped the true God even though they do not seem to have thought that he was incorporeal and may have seen him (at times) as just their particular god. (This would leave open the question of whether Mormons worship the true God–a question on which I am unsure, though I’d always prefer to err on the generous side.) So there’s wiggle room on some of the points I listed (some Christians, for instance, would claim that Muslims don’t worship the true God because their concept of God seems morally flawed in places–but then, many if not all Christians have a morally flawed concept of God too, so I think that’s a bad direction to go). But I think it’s pretty clear that if someone holds to all those characteristics of God, then they are talking about the true God.

Many modern Christians will claim that only worshipers of the Trinity worship the true God. But this isn’t the historic Christian view, and it not only contradicts how early apologists talked about pagan “monotheism” but entirely founders on the question of how to view the Jews. To maintain this position you have to say that Old Testament Jews really believed in the Trinity and that Jews stopped believing in the true God when they rejected Jesus, or something like that. I find that entirely unconvincing.

Finally, where did you get the idea that Catholicism teaches that all Protestants go to hell? I’m pretty sure that is not Catholic teaching. And very few Protestants believe that all Catholics go to hell. I am sorry if your relatives happen to be among those unfortunate extremists.

Edwin

 

[OrthodoxJosh]

It is quite the reverse of relativism.

Relativism says that there is no absolute truth.

It can’t possibly be “relativism” to say that there is, objectively, one God worshiped (even if imperfectly) by members of different religions.

Edwin

Forgive me! Call it syncretism (maybe even humanism)!

 

[kelman]

How would you explain Paul saying in sacred scripture that the Greek thoroughly polytheistic idolaters at Corinth worshiped the true God without knowing it?

I assume you’re referring to Paul’s Mars’ Hill address in Athens in Acts 17 where in verse 23-24 it says: “For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24What therefore ye worship in ignorance, this I set forth unto you.”

Paul is not saying that they were worshipping the one true God…how could they as this god was included in their pantheon of false gods? Paul uses a “play on words” and he did so because it was a crime to introduce a new god. It seems they were charging him with this earlier on in Acts 17. Paul used the inscription as the text of his address to show that he wasn’t introducing a new god to them. The true God was not known to them, however, Paul takes this opportunity to proclaim the nature of this God whom they do not know.

William Ramsey, a Bible commentator, said Paul puts the proper construction on the words of the inscription and he *“treats the worship of deities by pagans as a misdirected form of a natural and correct religious impulse." * It was genius of Paul, inspired genius, he should have placed a proper construction upon words which were obviously, in context, of pagan intention is remarkable. The Athenians didn’t know the true God and certainly didn’t worship Him. They built an altar, among all the other pagan altars, to an “unknown god” as a precautionary device in case there was another god out there they’d miss.

”There is here a fine paronomasia, or play on the words. The apostle tells them that (on their system) they were a very religious people-that they had an altar inscribed, αγνωστωθεω, to the unknown God: him therefore, says he, whom, αγνουντες, ye unknowingly worship, I proclaim to you. Assuming it as a truth, that, as the true God was not known by them, and that there was an altar dedicated to the unknown god, his God was that god whose nature and operations he now proceeded to declare. By this fine turn he eluded the force of that law which made it a capital offense to introduce any new god into the state, and of the breach of which he was charged, Acts 17:18; and thus he showed that he was bringing neither new god nor new worship among them; but only explaining the worship of one already acknowledged by the state, though not as yet known.” The Adam Clarke Commentary

 

[kelman]

This is the thing that we must be careful about in saying that this or that “group” has rejected Christ as opposed to being ignorant of Him.

Whether one is ignorant of or rejects Christ amounts to the same thing – they do not believe on Him for salvation and this belief Scripture insists is necessary for eternal life.

As to “lost sheep” Even a “Lost Sheep” can remember and desire the true shepherd…

The point is Christ called Israel “lost” and most of them did not want the Shepherd. They did not “hear” His voice and follow Him because they were not His sheep. John 10:14 ** “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.”**

Indeed - but false gods are false and the True God is True. By worshiping the God if Israel Solomon worshiped the True God - But he worshiped Him “Falsely”…Do you see what I mean?

Yes, I see what you mean, however, the first commandment gets in the way –** ”I am the Lord thy God…thou shalt have no gods before me”.** If God reveals Himself as the “one true God” how can it be said that someone is worshipping Him when they worship other gods? In 1Kings 11, God is clear that Solomon is in the throes of idolatry as he burnt incense to these gods.

Peter, who was the Apostle sent to reveal Christ to the Jews, seems very clear in the following verses that without belief in Jesus Christ there is no salvation:

In quoting these it is important to remember that the audience consisted of those who would have known of the events that had taken place in Jerusalem a scant 50 days before.
This is not to deny Peter’s words, but simply to place them within their proper context.
Peter - Paul - and I’m sure others, would go into the synagogues to preach and thus one could say that the Jews of that time truly had the choice placed before them. Such is not the case today.

It seems you’re saying that these verses were meant only for the original audience and are not meant for today? If such a thing were true, which it is not, it would be better to just toss the Scriptures into the dustbin of history since they would lack any validity. Frankly, it is more true today that a much greater portion of the population have had the truth placed before them – including Jews.

If the Jews believe in a one-person deity, that is what they worship, and in no way can we logically argue that they worship with us the Holy Trinity.

The Jews believe in a Single God just as we do.

I can’t agree because we believe in a “three” Person deity quite unlike the god the Jews and Muslims believe in.

I agree - Those Jews and Those Muslims who have examined the evidence and teachings and rejected them HAVE willfully and knowingly rejected them. Likewise those who willfully shut their ears and eyes to any Loving witness to the Gospel likewise is in great peril. However there remain many who are truly seeking God in Love, in worship and in the manner and understanding in which they were raised. One cannot say that such individuals “willfully and knowingly reject” the Trinity.

Many people seek god in their own way and many are in fact good decent people, however, Scripture is clear that we have eternal life only if we are “in Christ”. We are not “in Christ” if we do not have faith in Him. God doesn’t present living a “good” life as the criteria for salvation, rather, He says: ”… I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” and “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

I agree there are levels of culpability, nevertheless, the result is the same. The Bible demonstrates that God can take the heathen out of his situation so that he might be saved. Rehab and Ruth are good examples of this. So, we can rest assured that all God intends to save will be saved.

And this is just what the Church teaches. That God can save who He will and do so regardless of their condition of “knowledge” or situation.

I don’t believe your church’s teaching is the same as God’s with respect to this. The above verses demonstrate what God says is necessary. In them, God declares what is necessary for eternal salvation and it’s not to continue in a false religion. There is no salvation in a false religion.

Btw, how do you reconcile the teachings of past popes and councils which boldly declared that all “Jews and heretics and schismatics” are condemned to eternal damnation?

Frankly I don’t attempt to “reconcile” these things. Others, more intelligent and charged with such matters have done this for me and the results are contained within the Catholic Church Catechism and in various documents upon which the Catechism is built.

You’re right I didn’t find the answer satisfactory, no offense, but it’s hard to believe anyone would. Clearly we have two very conflicting so-called “infallible” teachings on faith and morals. If the first teaching was incorrect, then how can you know the second teaching is correct?