Not the same God?

[PRmerger]

I don’t think you caught on to what I ment. This is an example of what I mean. The Lord holds a passover meal at which He breaks bread and says.etc etc etc. This simple shared meal that He said to repeat in memory of Him DEVELOPED into the mass. The mass bares little resemblence to the original. Much has been ADDED. Again, there is nothing wrong with what was added but it was ADDED. I understand the reasons:- the formalization of such to support crowds.

Okay. So you understand that doctrine develops.

So now where shall we go in this discussion?

Some folks reject the faith that was given once for all to the saints. So to the degree that someone rejects that faith–say, the teaching on purgatory–is the degree that they have divorced themselves from the Faith of Christ.

 

[illusion_buster]

I still have no idea what your stance is!

I don’t think I have a particular “stance” persae. I’m looking for the Truth…if that is a stance. And although I’ve been brought up a devout Roman Catholic (and love it), I am always looking outward to see where else Jesus is revealing Himself. If I see a point that hits a nerve…I respond to clarify WHY it hit a nerve in ME more than calling your cards. Also, there is great Theological knowledge and connection to theological articles posted on this forum. So…if there are questions to be answered…I will inevitably be pointed in the right direction.

 

[Mickey]

Well, you’re not rejecting the understanding that there’s One God,

Which one? It’s not the one true Trinitarian God.

that He is the Creator of all

If you are praying to a god other than the Trinitarian God…then you are not praying to the creator of all.

I ask you this, Mickey: would you feel comfortable going to a Christian forum and proclaiming that anyone who does not believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist is not worshiping the True Christ?

I do not participate in protestant forums.

If the Eucharist is Jesus, and they reject the Eucharist, aren’t they rejecting Christ?

They are rejecting the Holy Mystery (Sacrament) of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Does this mean that they do not worship the Trinitarian God?

 

[illusion_buster]

Simple you said the Muslims have ZERO truth. So if they adore the One Merciful God how can they have zero truth?

I find this also ???

Basic Muslim beliefs that coincide with Christian belief:-A.Muslims believe in the existence of the angels and that they are honored creatures. The angels worship God alone, obey Him, and act only by His command. Among the angels is Gabriel

B.Muslims believe that God revealed books to His messengers as proof for mankind and as guidance for them.

C.Muslims believe in the prophets and messengers of God, starting with Adam, including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them)

D.Muslims believe in the Day of Judgment (the Day of Resurrection) when all people will be resurrected for God’s judgment according to their beliefs and deeds.

E.Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices.

1. God knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen.
2. God has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen.
3. Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen.
4. God is the Creator of everything.

This does not equate to = Zero Truth.
And look what they say about Our Lady.Saint Mary the Holy Virgin
Mary (مريم Maryam in Arabic), the mother of Jesus, is considered one of the most righteous women in the Islamic tradition. She is mentioned more in the Qur’an[1] than in the entire New Testament and is also the only woman mentioned by name in the Qur’an.[2] According to the Qur’an, Jesus was born miraculously by the will of God without a father. His mother is regarded as a chaste and virtuous woman and is said to have been a virgin. The Qur’an states clearly that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth. In the Qur’an, no other woman is given more attention than Mary and the Qur’an states that Mary was chosen above all women: (even Fatima…Muhammads daughter)

 

[Journey322]

All Christians: Catholic, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and other Protestants believe in the same God. What Protestant ecclesial communities lack is the fullness of understanding of God and the Christian Faith. I’m not surprised your husband was somewhat offended.

Yes!

 

[Journey322]

Greetings~
Well, here I am in a mess again.
My husband is a Lutheran and he was deeply offended when I told him that Catholics have a different God than Lutherans have because the way I saw it, there was no way it ever could be the same one, the qualities are too disimilar. Protestants are too quick to say we make everything up.
It’s a bit strange because if our God *is the same *then either we are all going to hell or they are all going to hell. Better choose wisely. I knew I needed to find out for sure…
My husband said oh sure, go to CAF and ask the Catholics but I told him that the people on these forums are completely unbiased and have schooled me when I have been wrong and enlightened me about things when I needed to know the truth. So that’s why I posted here again
Thanks so much for reading this thread,
Jen

We DO believe in the same God. There is **NO WAY **I would even be considering converting to Catholicism is that wasn’t the case. There are some “denominations” out there that refer to themselves as Protestants who are actually cults and do not believe in the same God. However, Lutherans are Christians.

 

[Mickey]

Muslims believe in the existence of the angels

Like the one who delivered the Koran?

Muslims believe that God revealed books to His messengers

Like the Koran?

Muslims believe in the prophets and messengers of God,

Like Muhammed?

Muslims believe in the Day of Judgment (the Day of Resurrection)

But they don’t believe that Christ was divine and was resurrected from the dead.

Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill.

But you better choose Islam.

 

[illusion_buster]

Okay. So you understand that doctrine develops.

So now where shall we go in this discussion?

.

The next step is understanding that churches that don’t agree with the DEVELOPMENTS are not necessarily rejecting the original Truth.

 

[illusion_buster]

Mickey:

Yes!   I didn't say they had it right....just that these beliefs are part of their understanding of the spiritual.

Bishop Fulton believed that (uhammads daughter) Fatima’s statement that Mary (or Lady) is above her…will eventually bring Muslim understanding toward Jesus being the Son of God. The arguement being: If Muhammad daughter is below Mary because she is the MOST blessed. Then Jesus must be greater than Muhammad or Fatima would be the most blessed. Bishop Fulton also believed that Mary visitation to ‘Fatima’ is thus more significant to Muslims then Christians.

 

[cho_pilo]

If so why do we appear to behave as if each group has a “monopoly” over a particular version of the same God?

Care to discuss?

 

[Peter57]

CCC 841- 846 said that Catholics and Moslems God are the same with difference in interpretations i.e. Moslem doesn’t believe that Jesus is God (as a part of the Trinity only one God ) and consider him as a prophet only.

 

[Simka]

Some, not All, Protestants do not see Christ in the Eucharist.

I’m uncertain of what you mean by “see Christ in the Eucharist”. Are you referring to the fact that some Christian churches are sacramental, others are not? That is, some recognize the Eucharist as a sacrament (the outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace), others see it only as an ordinance of the church, a practice to be obeyed because Christ commanded it, but with no symbolic spiritual meaning.

Yet so far as I am aware, all see the bread and wine as representing the broken body and shed blood of Christ on Calvary. Wherein is their “rejection” of Christ ?

 

[Simka]

… let me ask you this in another way Because Mohammad is a false prophet, does it make the ONE TRUE GOD, the God of Abraham a false God?

Followup to my vision (final installment).

On my deathbed, HAH comes to me again. This entity whom I have worshiped, whose precepts I have followed, whose commands I have obeyed, and whose deceptions I have believed … this HAH now gives me a revelation of what lies ahead for me, because of my loyalty to him. And I see the burning embers on the shores of the Lake of Fire. And as I draw my final breath, I see him as he really is … cloven hooves, horns and all.

And I realize that I have been worshiping, and following, and obeying … an imposter, not the God of Abraham.

HAH’s deceitfully successful impersonation means I have not been worshiping the God of Abraham, no matter what I might have thought or said to perpetuate that deception among the thousands who have believed my witness. I have led them all astray.

Yes, the God of Abraham is the One True God. The one I have worshiped is not Him.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Perhaps it would be better to see these verse’s…

841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842
The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . .331

843
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844
In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845
To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

 

[PRmerger]

The next step is understanding that churches that don’t agree with the DEVELOPMENTS are not necessarily rejecting the original Truth.

But if you say there really isn’t any problem with development of doctrine (which you call “ADDED”. I wouldn’t necessarily describe it that way, but that’s fodder for another thread),

why is it ok to reject the development but not necessarily the “original Truth”?

 

[jam070406]

I don’t see how this can be the right assumption… Muslims seem more 1 dimensional in thought (black & white). The concept of the Trinity (3 persons in one) is to them you declaring there is 3 gods. This they can’t accept. When Christians say the Trinity ( Father Son & Holy Spirit) we are not stating there are 3 gods. We are saying the is only ONE God. That is what Muslims say.‘There is only ONE God’. We AGREE there IS only ONE God…But Christians have a 3 dimensional understanding of God. Still the same ONE God. Muslems just don’t get it…That’s all.

The proper response to God’s revelation is “the obedience of faith (Rom 16:26; cf. Rom 1:5; 2 Cor 10:5-6) by which man freely entrusts his entire self to God, offering ‘the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals’ and freely assenting to the revelation given by him”. 15 Faith is a gift of grace: “in order to have faith, the grace of God must come first and give assistance; there must also be the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and gives ‘to everyone joy and ease in assenting to and believing in the truth’”. 16

 

[jam070406]

Well, of course they need to be evangelized, jam.

But saying that they worship the One True God is a good starting point, no?

It puts us paces ahead of evangelizing the atheist, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the pantheist, the Vannic pagan, eh?

But they don’t worship the True God, who is the the Trinity.
One god yes. One True God no.

 

[jam070406]

I find this also ???

Basic Muslim beliefs that coincide with Christian belief:-A.Muslims believe in the existence of the angels and that they are honored creatures. The angels worship God alone, obey Him, and act only by His command. Among the angels is Gabriel

B.Muslims believe that God revealed books to His messengers as proof for mankind and as guidance for them.

C.Muslims believe in the prophets and messengers of God, starting with Adam, including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and Jesus (peace be upon them)

D.Muslims believe in the Day of Judgment (the Day of Resurrection) when all people will be resurrected for God’s judgment according to their beliefs and deeds.

E.Muslims believe that God has given human beings freewill. This means that they can choose right or wrong and that they are responsible for their choices.

1. God knows everything. He knows what has happened and what will happen.
2. God has recorded all that has happened and all that will happen.
3. Whatever God wills to happen happens, and whatever He wills not to happen does not happen.
4. God is the Creator of everything.

This does not equate to = Zero Truth.
And look what they say about Our Lady.Saint Mary the Holy Virgin
Mary (مريم Maryam in Arabic), the mother of Jesus, is considered one of the most righteous women in the Islamic tradition. She is mentioned more in the Qur’an[1] than in the entire New Testament and is also the only woman mentioned by name in the Qur’an.[2] According to the Qur’an, Jesus was born miraculously by the will of God without a father. His mother is regarded as a chaste and virtuous woman and is said to have been a virgin. The Qur’an states clearly that Jesus was the result of a virgin birth. In the Qur’an, no other woman is given more attention than Mary and the Qur’an states that Mary was chosen above all women: (even Fatima…Muhammads daughter)

Cool. It is unfortunate they reject the gift of Faith in the one True God though.

 

[jam070406]

If so why do we appear to behave as if each group has a “monopoly” over a particular version of the same God?

Care to discuss?

A monopoly? That is rather insulting.
Christians have Divine revelation. Muslims reject Divine revelation for lies made by a false prophet.

 

[Portrait]

That doesn’t make sense. The one true God is the Trinitarian God. If you reject the Holy Trinity, you are not believing in the one true God.

Dear Mickey,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. A belated Happy New Year to you and your family. Hope all is well, my dear brother.

It is perfectly true, as you say, that Muslims vehemently and openly deny the Holy Trinity, yet is not the case that they do, notwithstanding, worship the same God, albeit in the wrong manner? If this is so, is it at least conceivably possible that they do actually worship, unwittingly, the Triune God of Christianity, even if they overtly deny and reject this doctrine?

However, what is of paramount importance is that we always remember that if a Muslim is saved within his religion, then he is saved not by the false religion of Islam but in spite of it, on account of the saving merits of our Blessed Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Having said this, we do, I think, have a duty to always warn men of an unworthy ecumenism and this is indeed a very real danger today. It is a very spurious charity that engages with Islam in an insipid irenic dialogue, without ever making it clear the urgent need and necessity of conversion to Christianity. Muslims, like all other men, need the healing balm of the Gospel, thus to frown upon proselytism is surely to totally misunderstand the whole tenor of Christianity and even its raison d’etre, thus depriving men of the means of salvation in Christ. Of course we should adopt, where at all possible, a concilliatory approach by indicating the various points of contact between Chriatianity and Islam, so long as this never blinds one to the manifestly obvious and insupperable obstacles. The centrality and finality of Christ and the Gospel must be held sacrosanct and it must be maintained that Islam, irrespective of its merits, is not itself salvific. If God does finally save an adherent of Islam, then it is surely inspite of his religion and not because of it.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portait

Pax