Not the same God?

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cho_pilo said:
If so why do we appear to behave as if each group has a “monopoly” over a particular version of the same God?
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God owns the Catholic church, the Catholic church doesn’t own God. The church does not claim to do so. It just acknowledges that the Catholic faith has a very good revelation of what God wants from us.
 
Hello my brother in Christ!
Portrait said:
If this is so, is it at least conceivably possible that they do actually worship, unwittingly, the Triune God of Christianity, even if they overtly deny and reject this doctrine?
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But they knowingly and consciously reject the Trinitarian God…unless you are speaking about some sort of invincible ignorance…in which case I would not be able to comment because the Orthodox Church does not have such a concept.
Portrait said:
Having said this, we do, I think, have a duty to always warn men of an unworthy ecumenism and this is indeed a very real danger today. It is a very spurious charity that engages with Islam in an insipid irenic dialogue, without ever making it clear the urgent need and necessity of conversion to Christianity.
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Amen.
Portrait said:
Muslims, like all other men, need the healing balm of the Gospel
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Amen.
Portrait said:
The centrality and finality of Christ and the Gospel must be held sacrosanct and it must be maintained that Islam, irrespective of its merits, is not itself salvific.
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Amen.
 
Portrait said:
Dear Mickey,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. A belated Happy New Year to you and your family. Hope all is well, my dear brother.

It is perfectly true, as you say, that Muslims vehemently and openly deny the Holy Trinity, yet is not the case that they do, notwithstanding, worship the same God, albeit in the wrong manner? If this is so, is it at least conceivably possible that they do actually worship, unwittingly, the Triune God of Christianity, even if they overtly deny and reject this doctrine?

However, what is of paramount importance is that we always remember that if a Muslim is saved within his religion, then he is saved not by the false religion of Islam but in spite of it, on account of the saving merits of our Blessed Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Having said this, we do, I think, have a duty to always warn men of an unworthy ecumenism and this is indeed a very real danger today. It is a very spurious charity that engages with Islam in an insipid irenic dialogue, without ever making it clear the urgent need and necessity of conversion to Christianity. Muslims, like all other men, need the healing balm of the Gospel, thus to frown upon proselytism is surely to totally misunderstand the whole tenor of Christianity and even its raison d’etre, thus depriving men of the means of salvation in Christ. Of course we should adopt, where at all possible, a concilliatory approach by indicating the various points of contact between Chriatianity and Islam, so long as this never blinds one to the manifestly obvious and insupperable obstacles. The centrality and finality of Christ and the Gospel must be held sacrosanct and it must be maintained that Islam, irrespective of its merits, is not itself salvific. If God does finally save an adherent of Islam, then it is surely inspite of his religion and not because of it.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portait

Pax
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Islam is a bondage of fear. It needs to be challenged with reason and the hold over the minds of the masses broken.
Only problem is, when it is challenged and proven to be false it’s adherents break out in violence.
 
There is only one God. We use two descriptive names; Yahweh and Jehovah. Remember that God told Moses that his name is “I Am (Who I Am)” which tells us that we cannot give God a name. From reading articles written by Muslims, they believe God’s proper name is Allah. Some non-Muslims believe this name is a derivative of the name of a god of the moon (and thus the Islamic crescent). Not sure of the truth of this last comment.

Again, there is only one God. God’s truth has been revealed throughout the ages and comes to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus founded the one true faith through his Church here on earth. Anyone who denies the complete truth handed to us through Jesus is in error.
 
Mickey said:
Which one? It’s not the one true Trinitarian God. 🤷
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It’s God, the Creator, God the Merciful, God who hate abortion, that they worship.

That’s the same God that we worship, no?
If you are praying to a god other than the Trinitarian God…then you are not praying to the creator of all.
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That’s begging the question, isn’t it?
I do not participate in protestant forums.
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That’s an irrelevant objection. The point is that you believe that Methodists worship the same Christ that we do, yet they reject the Eucharist. You wouldn’t tell a Methodist, “How can you worship Jesus Christ yet say you reject the Eucharist. You must be worshipping a false Jesus.”
They are rejecting the Holy Mystery (Sacrament) of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. Does this mean that they do not worship the Trinitarian God?
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You are mixing metaphors, Mickey.

The Eucharist and the Trinity belong in different equations here.

Take this analogy:

Christmas tree : ornament :: Earlobe : earring.
Or A : B :: a : b

You cannot take A and compare it to b.

When someone says, “But a Christmas tree can’t wear an earring” they demonstrate that they have an inability to understand analogies. They have taken “A” and compared it to “b”.

So saying a Methodist still worships the Trinity is to mix the analogies.
 
Hi Cho Pilo,

If we understand the teaching of Jesus through the New Testament properly, then God is the source of all love in the universe: - an infinite source of absolute purity. Jesus came, not just to fulfil or restore the sacred scriptures, the wisdom of Abraham, Moses and all prophets of the old testament, but to present a working model of how the scriptures should be interpreted, as in the New Testament, supported by several thousand witness statements.

If any other belief set follows the interpretation of scriptures as laid down by Jesus, then they must set aside their human instincts and focus on the spiritual development of their souls - not by judging others, but by loving their neighbour as they love themselves - ‘by washing their feet’ - ‘the leaders role is the servants role’. In saying this, it becomes clear that anyone who follows the example of Christ will live forever - whether they are called Catholic, Muslim, Presbyterian, Jew or whatever,

The answer to your question then lies in the eye of the beholder -
  • all those who believe in the God of infinite love stand on one side,
  • all those who believe that they can represent God by judging others - stand on the other side.
    Now all wait for the arrival of God - the Creator from whom all authority stems- He who has the power to manifest Himself in the form of Jesus, the Holy spirit, Mary or any one else.
    For those people, however well-intentioned, who failed to draw the complete distinction between the human condition and the Spiritual condition, then only God can determine the fate.
 
PRmerger said:
That’s the same God that we worship, no?
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No. We worship the Trinitarian God.
PRmerger said:
That’s begging the question, isn’t it?
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No.
PRmerger said:
That’s an irrelevant objection.
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No it is not. I do not play “what if” scenarios.
PRmerger said:
The point is that you believe that Methodists worship the same Christ that we do,
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I thought we were discussing Muslims? Most protestants consciously worship the Triune God. Muslims don’t.
PRmerger said:
You are mixing metaphors, Mickey.
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Not at all. I think you are the one who is a bit confused.
PRmerger said:
You cannot take A and compare it to b.
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Exactly. You cannot say that Muslims worship the Trinitarian God when they reject the Trinitarian God.
 
Mickey said:
No. We worship the Trinitarian God.
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That’s curious. I’m pretty sure that at Mass we Catholics say that we worship God the Creator. We don’t say we believe in God the Trinitarian God. 🤷
 
PRmerger said:
That’s curious. I’m pretty sure that at Mass we Catholics say that we worship God the Creator. We don’t say we believe in God the Trinitarian God.
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Whoa! So God the Creator is not the Trinitarian God in the Catholic Mass?!? This is disturbing news to me. :eek:
 
Mickey said:
Whoa! So God the Creator is not the Trinitarian God in the Catholic Mass?!? This is disturbing news to me. :eek:
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God the Creator is, well, God the Creator.
Jesus the Redeemer, is, well, Jesus the Redeemer.
The Holy Spirit as Sanctifier is, well, the Sancitifier.

Now, when a Muslim worships God the Creator, we ought to give him a 👍 and then nudge him on the journey towards the Truth of God as a Trinitarian God.
 
I believe they are the same…

The catechism of the Catholic church seems to indicate so…even though individual Catholics take exception to it’s stance.🤷
 
PRmerger said:
God the Creator is, well, God the Creator.
Jesus the Redeemer, is, well, Jesus the Redeemer.
The Holy Spirit as Sanctifier is, well, the Sancitifier…
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Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier…That sounds a bit new age!!!

We worship:
God the Father.
God the Son.
God the Holy Spirit.
PRmerger said:
Now, when a Muslim worships God the Creator, we ought to give him a 👍
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You can if you wish…but he/she is not worshipping the Trinitarian God.
PRmerger said:
and then nudge him on the journey towards the Truth of God as a Trinitarian God.
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No doubt. Every Muslim needs to hear the truth.
 
PRmerger said:
God the Creator is, well, God the Creator.
Jesus the Redeemer, is, well, Jesus the Redeemer.
The Holy Spirit as Sanctifier is, well, the Sancitifier.
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You just made is sound like we worship three gods.
 
Mickey said:
Wow! You went back more than three years to find an instance where I wrote “what if” in one of my posts?!?

That’s kinda creepy. 😦
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Pretty easy. 🤷

Are you not familiar with the search function?

Point made: you actually do participate in “what if” scenarios. 🙂
 
Now it seems we have come full circle once again.

If the Church is correct in its teaching there is only ONE TRUE GOD creator of heaven and earth, and One true God the God of Abraham. As the Church teaches Muslims, Jews and Christians all adore the One True God the God of Abraham.

Now it is said if you cannot see God in the fullness of the Trinity, it makes the God of Abraham a false God. So now we are in alot of trouble.

Either the Church is correct and there is only one God of Abraham, or there are many gods of Abraham and Abraham worshiped many gods. Its as simple as that.

The Jews worship the God of Abraham, they cannot see the fullness of the God in the Trinity. It is even predicted in the O.T. that many will not come to see Christ as the true God until he return again in his Glory.

But again that makes the God of Abraham a false god again. How can this be possible.

As I said in order for the word of God to be true and there is only One God creator of heaven and earth to be true either the Church is correct and there is only One God and only One God of Abraham. Or we have been greately misled by not only the Church but by also Father Abraham who teaches us there is only One God.

Moses said there is only One God, the God of Abraham.

IF you cannot worship the One True God the God of Abraham if you do not see him in the fullness of the trinity, why did God give them a spirit of stupor eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear down to this very day.

Did God reject his people I think not.

In ST Paul letter to the Romans. He states

I ask them has God rejected his people? BY no means I myself am an Isralite a decendant of Abraham a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

Back to the point! Because the Jews rejected God in the Trinity, does it mean God rejected them? St Paul said NO.

Because they could not see God in the trinity did Jesus say that the God of Abraham was false? If he did where?

THe reason for this is quite a mystery. Read what St Paul says. Many Jews not all have been cut off, but when they return to the Church they will be grafted back onto what has always been…

Why, Why did ST Paul state that God darkened the eyes of the Jews? Think about it. Read what he said, and why he said God did it.

But back to the Point we are taught Jews Christians and Muslims all believe in the One True God the God of Abraham. Either the Church us telling us the truth, or the Church is called a liar.
 
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