Not the same God?

[jam070406]

Oh so you are saying that God revealed to them the mystery of the Trinity, and they have been given Grace to fully understand it and intentionally do not accept it!

Now this is so hard to believe, when they do not even have the true Gospel or the True teachings of the Catholic Church. If they get even caught with a bible they will be killed, alone try to study it. But yet they consciously and intentionally do this.

Holy Smokes!

Then the world is misleading us also. Telling us that if they do not submit to the teachings of Muhammad they will be killed.

They don’t have the Truth and kill those that do have the Truth, yet they worship Truth. :hypno:

 

[Mickey]

They don’t have the Truth and kill those that do have the Truth, yet they worship Truth. :hypno:

:whacky:

 

[rinnie]

They don’t have the Truth and kill those that do have the Truth, yet they worship Truth. :hypno:

I am not going to revert back to this again with you putting words in my mouth again.

Because they pray to the One True God the Creator of heaven and earth, by no means says that they have the true word of God given to them by a false prophet.

The Church has never taught that they have the fullnes of the truth, the Church has taught they while they indeed have some truth they cannot have the fullness of the Truth without the CC.

So there you have it, the Jews are out, the Muslims are out. BUt yet we all adore the One true God. Go figure

And even Abraham is out, and Moses etc. Because the also did not have the fullness of Christ revealed to them in the Trinity. Because it was Christ who revealed to us. It was God who revealed it to St Peter. As Christ said Flesh and bone did not reveal this to you.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

To my knowledge…the Methodists pray to the Trinitarian God…Father, Son , and Holy Spirit. The Muslims consciously and intentionally do not recognize…nor do they pray… to the Trinitarian God.

Oh so you are saying that God revealed to them the mystery of the Trinity, and they have been given Grace to fully understand it and intentionally do not accept it!

Not speaking directly for Mickey, but I read his comment in a manner consistent with my understanding of Islamic theology. They certainly recognize Jesus as a real historic figure, a great prophet, although not greater than Mohammed. With that in mind, it is logical to infer that they have rejected what would be our view of a Trinitarian God, which of course includes Christ, the Son.

Yet we Catholics acknowledge their belief, consistent with our own Christian belief, in the Creator. The CCC was quoted above in this regard.

IMO it appears that the Catechism was careful not to go so far as to say that they believe in the same God of Abraham. I have read that Muslims do not necessarily believe this. Does anyone know for certain or can point to a good resource on this point?

 

[jam070406]

I am not going to revert back to this again with you putting words in my mouth again.

Because they pray to the One True God the Creator of heaven and earth, by no means says that they have the true word of God given to them by a false prophet.

The Church has never taught that they have the fullnes of the truth, the Church has taught they while they indeed have some truth they cannot have the fullness of the Truth without the CC.

So there you have it, the Jews are out, the Muslims are out. BUt yet we all adore the One true God. Go figure

And even Abraham is out, and Moses etc. Because the also did not have the fullness of Christ revealed to them in the Trinity. Because it was Christ who revealed to us. It was God who revealed it to St Peter. As Christ said Flesh and bone did not reveal this to you.

The Church teaches that the Triune God is Faithful to reveal Himself to the hearts and minds of those that entrust in full submission the intellect and will.
Those that reject Truth cannot know Truth.

 

[Mickey]

even Abraham is out, and Moses etc. Because the also did not have the fullness of Christ revealed to them in the Trinity.

Abraham served Christ and the Angels in the Book of Gensis (the hospitality of Abraham). Some Fathers even tell us that this is the Holy Trinity. There are beautiful Icons explaining this theology to us.

As far as Moses?

For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me.
John 5:46

 

[jam070406]

Abraham served Christ and the Angels in the Book of Gensis (the hospitality of Abraham). Some Fathers even tell us that this is the Holy Trinity. There are beautiful Icons explaining this theology to us.

As far as Moses?

For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me.
John 5:46

Not to mention, Jesus WAS revelaed to them when he descended into hell to take them to paradise.

 

[Portrait]

Hello my brother in Christ!

But they knowingly and consciously reject the Trinitarian God…unless you are speaking about some sort of invincible ignorance…in which case I would not be able to comment because the Orthodox Church does not have such a concept.
Amen.
Amen.
Amen.

Dear Mickey,

Cordial greetings and thankyou for the above - thought I would leave the Trinitirian Amen’s in as an affirmation of our orthodoxy (no pun intended, old chap!).

True, my dear friend, we must never ever loose sight of the fact that they do, as a religion, reject belief in the Triune God. However, I do think that the vast majority of Muslims, like most of the Jews, only see our Blessed Saviour through broken lenses, so to speak, thus many of them may well be inculpably ignorant. Nevertheless, It surely not inconsequential that Muslims and Christians do at least worship and extol the same creator God, albeit imperfectly. That is surely a point of contact in our preaching and dialogue, provided that we move from that to an uncompromising proclamation of those things most surely believed among us as Christians.

It is of paramount importance that we never soft-pedal the fact that our beliefs respecting God essentially differ from those of Islam. Fundamentally, they reject (as do the Jews) belief in the Holy Trinity and hold that this is tantamount to saying that there are three Gods, not one. Now a rejection of the Trinity entails a denial of all Christian doctrines which rely upon that dogma, such as the Incarnation, the Sacraments, and all other beliefs and practices that are based upon the Incarnation of the Son of God.

Nevertheless, notwithstanding these variations in understanding the nature of God, it is the same God that we believe in and this much can, I think, be acknowledged without in any way compromising our correct credal beliefs respecting the Holy Trinity.

As Christians we should pray earnestly that Muslims will be reunited with our common Father by finding Christ who alone is “the way the truth and the life” (cf. Acts 4: 12). We cannot, indeed we must not, stop prosyletizing, for prosyletizing means leading men to the Way home. Woe is unto us if we preach not the Gospel in all our dialogue with Islam and the other world religions.

God bless, Mickey, and have a jolly splendid weekend, whatever you plan to do.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax

 

[PRmerger]

How about their own words?

The Mormon President Gordon B. Hinckley said “we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity … our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet” (LDS General Conference Apr 2002). Mormonism teaches Jesus is “a God” of many Gods

Fair enough. They worship a different Christ than the one we all worship. :sad_yes:

And I haven’t seen anything in our Catechism declaring that they, together with us, adore the one Christ, like we see with our Muslim brethren adoring the same God.

 

[PRmerger]

But if it makes you feel better that you found an instance three years ago where I said “what if”…then great!

It kinda made me smile to find that one, yes.

The search function is my friend.

 

[PRmerger]

It doesn’t speculate who their god is.

And yet you have taken it upon yourself to declare that it’s a different god.

Even when it says “and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

How is it that they are “together with us”? Can you explain that one or are you also going to say you can’t speculate about that?

It does say Muslims who acknowledge the creator (Trinity) are included in the plan of salvation (the Gospel). It’s those Muslims that accept the gift of Faith.

Sure.

 

[jam070406]

Fair enough. They worship a different Christ than the one we all worship. :sad_yes:

And I haven’t seen anything in our Catechism declaring that they, together with us, adore the one Christ, like we see with our Muslim brethren adoring the same God.

Muslims are not our brethren. Not in any spiritual sense.
The problem is, as Pope Benedict has pointed out, the texts must be read in context on 2000 years of Tradition and Catholic Truth or we fall in a relativistic trap and do damage to the Catholic Faith.

 

[PRmerger]

To my knowledge…the Methodists pray to the Trinitarian God…Father, Son , and Holy Spirit. The Muslims consciously and intentionally do not recognize…nor do they pray… to the Trinitarian God.

There are no inconsistencies.

And yet the Methodists reject the Eucharist but still worship the same Christ as we do?

How can this be?

 

[PRmerger]

Muslims are not our brethren. Not in any spiritual sense.

Well, they’re certainly not our brethren in Christ.

But if they’re God’s children and I’m God’s child, then, well, you know what that makes them: my brethren.

The problem is, as Pope Benedict has pointed out, the texts must be read in context on 2000 years of Tradition and Catholic Truth or we fall in a relativistic trap and do damage to the Catholic Faith.

'zactly.

 

[jam070406]

And yet you have taken it upon yourself to declare that it’s a different god.

Even when it says “and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

How is it that they are “together with us”? Can you explain that one or are you also going to say you can’t speculate about that?

Sure.

Together with us, AFTER they have accepted the Gospel. Which is the plan of salvation.
The quote from the CC is taken from Lumen Gentium and is dealing with those among the Muslim community that have not heard the Gospel. Not ALL Muslims. And when those that do hear the Truth, accept it, profess the Trinity, become baptized, they will indeed be worshipping the one True God, the Trinity, along with us.

 

[Portrait]

Islam is a bondage of fear. It needs to be challenged with reason and the hold over the minds of the masses broken.
Only problem is, when it is challenged and proven to be false it’s adherents break out in violence.

Dear jam070406,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response to my post above.

You are quite correct, Islam does need to be challenged as regards its erroneous teachings and as a Catholic I would shout this loudly from the rooftops.

It is only Islamic fundamentalists that are likely to respond in an aggressive manner when they are challenged, but I do not believe we can say this of the vast majority of moderate, law-abiding Muslims, who generally live quite peaceably with all men. Having discussed the truths of Christianity with some Muslims, I can say that the ones that I spoke to were perfectly reasonable and intelligent men. Of course there were some fundamental disagreements, but the conversation was always amicable and nobody flew into rage or started issuing curses.

However, I agree that there is not enough of this challenging stuff today and somethimes men are wont to get submerged in ecumenical politeness.

God bless and may you, and all other contributors to the current thread, have an enjoyable weekend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax

 

[jam070406]

Dear jam070406,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response to my post above.

You are quite correct, Islam does need to be challenged as regards its erroneous teachings and as a Catholic I would shout this loudly from the rooftops.

It is only Islamic fundamentalists that are likely to respond in an aggressive manner when they are challenged, but I do not believe we can say this of the vast majority of moderate, law-abiding Muslims, who generally live quite peaceably with all men. Having discussed the truths of Christianity with some Muslims, I can say that the ones that I spoke to were perfectly reasonable and intelligent men. Of course there were some fundamental disagreements, but the conversation was always amicable and nobody flew into rage or started issuing curses.

However, I agree that there is not enough of this challenging stuff today and somethimes men are wont to get submerged in ecumenical politeness.

God bless and may you, and all other contributors to the current thread, have an enjoyable weekend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

Pax

Thanks. I agree with you.

 

[PRmerger]

Together with us, AFTER they have accepted the Gospel.

And yet, curiously, it does not mention that they have accepted the Gospel.

And, even more curiously, this statement is under the heading: “the Church and NON-CHRISTIANS”.

Can you tell me how someone could accept the Gospel and be a non-Christian?

 

[Mickey]

Nevertheless, notwithstanding these variations in understanding the nature of God, it is the same God that we believe in and this much can, I think, be acknowledged without in any way compromising our correct credal beliefs respecting the Holy Trinity.

Ah…this is where we disagree. The Muslims knowingly and consciously reject the Triune God. And so they are not worshipping the same God as you and I…they are worshipping some other entity…in their mind and in their heart. I cannot accept that they are worshipping the Triune God in spite of their clear denial of the true God…the Trinitarian God.

As Christians we should pray earnestly that Muslims will be reunited with our common Father by finding Christ who alone is “the way the truth and the life” (cf. Acts 4: 12).

There is no doubt about that.

God bless, Mickey, and have a jolly splendid weekend, whatever you plan to do.

Same to you my dear friend.

 

[jam070406]

And yet, curiously, it does not mention that they have accepted the Gospel.

And, even more curiously, this statement is under the heading: “the Church and NON-CHRISTIANS”.

Can you tell me how someone could accept the Gospel and be a non-Christian?

It deals with our relationship with non-Christians. And the Traditional Teaching has always been the it’s the Church’s mission to preach the Gospel to them.

IMHO, it is an unfortunate set of ambiguous texts that have done zero to bring Muslims to Christ and only added confusion to Catholics and scandal to non-Catholic Christians.