Not the same God?

[Mickey]

And yet the Methodists reject the Eucharist but still worship the same Christ as we do?

Do the Methodists reject the Eucharist? Are there any Methodists here?

If they do, they are rejecting the sacramental theology taught by the Apostolic Church, teaching us that Christ is present in the Holy Eucharist. But I am guessing that they would point to many other biblical passages such as “where two or more are gathered together in my name, there am I also.”

Methodists worship the Triune God. They profess to worship the Triune God. They consciously acknowledge and pray to the Triune God.

The Muslims don’t.

Your attempt at defending the Muslim’s god by using the Methodists is meaningless.

 

[Mickey]

Well, they’re certainly not our brethren in Christ.

But if they’re God’s children and I’m God’s child, then, well, you know what that makes them: my brethren.

They are you brother in God…but not your brother in Christ? Unless I am misunderstanding…that sounds heretical.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The Muslims knowingly and consciously reject the Triune God.

Mickey, my friend - I agree with you in principle, but I do not think this a subject with which Muslims preoccupy themselves. They seek a relationship with Allah, and seem rather focused on that relationship. Something to be said for that …

It seems like there’s been a lot of back-and-forth here about Catholic Church teachings and Muslim beliefs.

Simply put, the Catholic Church acknowledges that Catholics and Muslims share a belief in a Creator.

Whether or not that Creator is the same God, the God of Abraham, is less clear. The Old Testament accounts of Abraham and Ismael would so suggest, to us at least, but Muslims may understand otherwise. I’m not sure.

What is certain? That Islam acknowledged Jesus as a real person, a prophet, although not as great as Mohammed. One doesn’t need to go further than that to conclude that their understanding of God and ours (the Triune God) is very different.

Peace be with you!

 

[PRmerger]

It deals with our relationship with non-Christians.

Right. And it says that these NON-CHRISTIANS (who implicitly have NOT ACCEPTED the Gospel), adore God, TOGETHER WITH US.

So, jam, either you have to say that they’re adoring the same God we are, or that we’re adoring the same God as the Muslims.

But you can’t get around the fact that our Catechism says that Muslims (that is, NON-CHRISTIANS not accepting the Gospel) are together with us in something.

What is this something?

Adoring the one merciful God.

 

[PRmerger]

Do the Methodists reject the Eucharist?

Yes, Mickey, they do reject the Eucharist.

And yet they worship the same Christ? Yes, or no?

 

[PRmerger]

Simply put, the Catholic Church acknowledges that Catholics and Muslims share a belief in a Creator.

I would add that these Muslims adore, together with us, God who is Creator, One, merciful and mankind’s judge on the last day.

 

[jam070406]

Mickey, my friend - I agree with you in principle, but I do not think this a subject with which Muslims preoccupy themselves. They seek a relationship with Allah, and seem rather focused on that relationship. Something to be said for that …

It seems like there’s been a lot of back-and-forth here about Catholic Church teachings and Muslim beliefs.

Simply put, the Catholic Church acknowledges that Catholics and Muslims share a belief in a Creator.

Whether or not that Creator is the same God, the God of Abraham, is less clear. The Old Testament accounts of Abraham and Ismael would so suggest, to us at least, but Muslims may understand otherwise. I’m not sure.

What is certain? That Islam acknowledged Jesus as a real person, a prophet, although not as great as Mohammed. One doesn’t need to go further than that to conclude that their understanding of God and ours (the Triune God) is very different.

Peace be with you!

The problem is that the ambiguity has opened an unfortunate and potentially damaging Pandora’s box.
When you put a statement out there that gives the impression that Muslims are saved because they adore the one true God, a whole host of problems occur. Catholics believe and teach there are multiple paths to God. Of that Muslims are our seperated brethren.
I saw a Muslim site state that the Catholic Church has changed it’s Teaching and now Muslims don’t need to convert. All they need to do is be a “good” person.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I would add that these Muslims adore, together with us, God who is Creator, One, merciful and mankind’s judge on the last day.

Yes. I am uncertain, however, whether they would agree that Allah and the God of Abraham are one and the same. The CCC stops way short of confirming this, and I have read somewhere that Muslims reject this premise, despite our understanding from Old Testament and other accounts.

Is that your understanding?

 

[Mickey]

Yes, Mickey, they do reject the Eucharist.

I have seen many Methodists on this forum proclaiming to believe in the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

And yet they worship the same Christ?

Perhaps you should ask them.

 

[jam070406]

I would add that these Muslims adore, together with us, God who is Creator, One, merciful and mankind’s judge on the last day.

How? Do they have the Holy sacrifice of the Mass?
Do they profess Jesus, “whom all things were made”?
Do they believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins?
Do they have sacramental confession?
Do they acknowledge that JESUS is the judge who will come again to judge the living and the dead?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The problem is that the ambiguity has opened an unfortunate and potentially damaging Pandora’s box.
When you put a statement out there that gives the impression that Muslims are saved because they adore the one true God, a whole host of problems occur. Catholics believe and teach there are multiple paths to God. Of that Muslims are our seperated brethren.
I saw a Muslim site state that the Catholic Church has changed it’s Teaching and now Muslims don’t need to convert. All they need to do is be a “good” person.

I follow your reasoning and share your concern to an extent. However, how does or should the Church’s teaching differ with respect to Muslims as opposed to faithless individuals or those who do not know God?

And we cannot be held accountable for the misinterpretations of others. We have such occuring even among Catholics. We have 2000+ years of tradition (outside the Church) of others twisting Church teachings conveniently to either validate (in their own minds) their own views or to disparage the Church.

FWIW - I’m more concerned with understanding how the Church teaches us to be tolerant of other faiths, yet true always to our own, so that we may provide faithful witness of Christ and His Holy Church. It is through this faithful witness that others should be able to see and discern the Truth. If the Church gives us specific teaching and instruction on how to do so with specific faiths that may have a different understanding of God, even better.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, my friend - I agree with you in principle, but I do not think this a subject with which Muslims preoccupy themselves.

Indeed. According to the massive number of threads on the subject…it seems to be something that Latin Catholics are preoccupied with.

They seek a relationship with Allah, and seem rather focused on that relationship. Something to be said for that …

I suppose so…whoever Allah might be.

Simply put, the Catholic Church acknowledges that Catholics and Muslims share a belief in a Creator.

As jam has pointed out…the language is rather vague and sometimes contradictory in various documents. Of course the Orthodox are not bound by these documents (and I have made a point in past threads that Catholics are not bound by them either). But I am wondering if there is anything on the subject prior to the 20th century for Latin Catholics to compare?

Whether or not that Creator is the same God, the God of Abraham, is less clear.

I think it is very clear that if you reject the Triune God…you reject the True God…the God of Abraham.

Peace be with you!

And to you my friend.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I think it is very clear that if you reject the Triune God…you reject the True God…the God of Abraham.

I understand your logic, but admit I am still stuck on this as an academic point, if you will. The Old Testament and our Tradition would tell us that Allah and the God of Abraham should be one and the same. Stated differently, did we at least start in the same place? I’m curious as to what Islam actually teaches. Any idea?

 

[jam070406]

I follow your reasoning and share your concern to an extent. However, how does or should the Church’s teaching differ with respect to Muslims as opposed to faithless individuals or those who do not know God?

And we cannot be held accountable for the misinterpretations of others. We have such occuring even among Catholics. We have 2000+ years of tradition (outside the Church) of others twisting Church teachings conveniently to either validate (in their own minds) their own views or to disparage the Church.

FWIW - I’m more concerned with understanding how the Church teaches us to be tolerant of other faiths, yet true always to our own, so that we may provide faithful witness of Christ and His Holy Church. It is through this faithful witness that others should be able to see and discern the Truth. If the Church gives us specific teaching and instruction on how to do so with specific faiths that may have a different understanding of God, even better.

How about preach the Truth as the Church has always done. Strive to be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect and trust in the Holy Spirit even if it results in physical death? I believe that’s what countless Saints did.
It’s about pleasing God, not man.

 

[Mickey]

I’m curious as to what Islam actually teaches. Any idea?

I thought the “religion” of Islam began when Mohammed was given the writings (which came to be known as the Koran) from an “angel” in a cave?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

That’s true “Allah” is aramaic for God no difference in word being expressed.

But huge difference in revelation, when expressed by Islam Arabs and Christian Arabs. Islam believes the Quran is “inspired of God”, the Christians believe the bible is “inspired of God.”

The Allah that the Quran reveals is a different revelation of God than the God revealed from Sacred Scripture.

For example its universal knowledge that God commands from the bible “Do not lie”. God does not decieve nor can be decieved, when God is God and never needs to lie.

The Koran reveals “lie-ing is a good virtue”

(Koran) Qu’ran – allows its followers to Lie and deceive as a virtue of Islam

Taqiyya = lying against unbelievers is a virtue and a religious duty according to the Qu’ran, Haddith (tradition), Islamic Law

(Koran) Qu’ran

Sura 16:106 Establishes that there are circumstances that can “compel” a Muslim to tell a lie

Sura 3:28 This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends unless it is to “guard themselves”

Sura 40:28 A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must “hide his faith” among those who are not believers

Sura 2:225 “Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths but for the intention in your hearts”

Sura 66:2 “Allah has already ordained you ( O men), the dissolution of your oaths” Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be “compelled” to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Haddith tradition

Bukhari 52:269 The prophet said, “War is deceit” after he murdered Ushayr Ibn Z arim and his 30 unarmed men, by Muhommads men, after he guaranteed them safe passage.

Bukhari 49:857 “He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a Liar, “Lying is Permitted when the end Justifies the Means.

Bukhari 84:64-65 (Speaking from a position of Power) Ali- confirms that “ lying is permissible in order to deceive an enemy”.

Bukhari 52:271 Ka’bbin Al- Ashraf at Muhommads insistence, his men dishonestly gained Ka’bs trust in order to bring him out of hiding, by stating there no longer are Muslims, and then brutally assisinated him.

Islamic law
Reliance of the traveler ( pg. 746) It is obligatory to Lie if the goal is obligatory

The bible reveals that Jesus revealed “ALL” scriptures to his disciples see Luke 24:27, 44-45.

The Quran reveals Muhammed to be the last prophet to reveal the revelation of God, which denies Jesus divinity as the Word became flesh.

The CCC does not reveal each non catholics position of God, only that all of humanity thirst for God, some good, some evil have come from man’s thirst for God in the revelations of religion.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

I thought the “religion” of Islam began when Mohammed was given the writings (which came to be known as the Koran) from an “angel” in a cave?

Yes, but the patrimony of Islam does not begin with Mohammed. After all, they also profess Jesus as a prophet. Mohammed was born some 570+ years after Christ.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

How about preach the Truth as the Church has always done. Strive to be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect and trust in the Holy Spirit even if it results in physical death? I believe that’s what countless Saints did.
It’s about pleasing God, not man.

Thank you for those inspiring words, and I do pray I be given even a spec of wisdom and grace in my lifetime to be able to please God for but a fleeting moment. Besides, attempting to please man is an exercise in futility.

Yet, you did not attempt to answer my question. That is, how does Church teaching differ in regards to the possibility of salvation for Muslims versus those who do not know God?

 

[PRmerger]

I have seen many Methodists on this forum proclaiming to believe in the Real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Please cite these posts. At least 3 different Methodists, please. (That would satisfy, in my mind, your use of the descriptor “many”)

(Use the search function–remember, it’s your friend, too )

Perhaps you should ask them.

Again with the inconsistency!

You are willing to say that Muslims don’t worship the same God as Christians. Rather, as parallels you ought to be proclaiming, “Perhaps you should ask [Muslims]” whether they worship the same God.

And yet you are willing to state that they worship a different god, yet unwilling to say that Methodists who reject the Eucharist, worship a different christ.

Why the illogic?

 

[PRmerger]

How?

Through their prayers and good works.

Do they have the Holy sacrifice of the Mass?
Do they profess Jesus, “whom all things were made”?
Do they believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins?
Do they have sacramental confession?
Do they acknowledge that JESUS is the judge who will come again to judge the living and the dead?

Nope.

And to the degree that they reject these Truths is the degree to which they are not consonant with the Truth.

There is much to do, yet we have a wonderful starting point: adoration of the One Merciful God who judges all of mankind on the last day!