Not the same God?

[RyanBlack]

Please cite these posts. At least 3 different Methodists, please. (That would satisfy, in my mind, your use of the descriptor “many”)

(Use the search function–remember, it’s your friend, too )

Again with the inconsistency!

You are willing to say that Muslims don’t worship the same God as Christians. Rather, as parallels you ought to be proclaiming, “Perhaps you should ask [Muslims]” whether they worship the same God.

And yet you are willing to state that they worship a different god, yet unwilling to say that Methodists who reject the Eucharist, worship a different christ.

Why the illogic?

Having once been Methodist, and having spent 5 years at a Duke Divinity School, which is affiliated with the United Methodist Church, I can assure you that there are a number of Methodists who believe in the real presence of Christ in the eucharist.

 

[Mickey]

Yes, but the patrimony of Islam does not begin with Mohammed.

Patrimony? Islam started with Muhammed.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Patrimony? Islam started with Muhammed.

OK I give up!

 

[Mickey]

Please cite these posts.

Ryan answered.

“Perhaps you should ask [Muslims]” whether they worship the same God.

They would tell you that they don’t worship the Trinitarian God.

Why the illogic?

There is no illogic. You are grasping at straws in your effort to defend Islam’s non-Trinitatian god.

 

[Mickey]

OK I give up!

Me too.

If someone is okay with their conscience…and has discussed it with their spiritual father…and they want to believe that Islam worships the same God as the Christians…then they have free will to do so.

I do not hold to such a teaching.

 

[rdscheirer]

Grew up Lutheran married a Catholic cutie (now 27 yrs going on 28) after 10 yrs of marriage and having kids (adopted) I decided to look into the Faith-I had usually accompanied my wife to Mass even on vacations because she is devout- can’t get her to come on to the forums tho’- (I’m not that smart in the Faith") - so I went to RCIA offered by our church for people who wan to learn more- then I got on Catholic Answers and got the books about the early church fathers and read them- I’m a surgeon, majored in Physics and love history- go figure- but what the early church fathers talk about the Eucharist and scriptures and tradition and the fact that the Deacon who ran the RCIA program had been Lutheran made it very easy- there is not that much different in Catholic /Lutheran tenets.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Grew up Lutheran married a Catholic cutie (now 27 yrs going on 28) after 10 yrs of marriage and having kids (adopted) I decided to look into the Faith-I had usually accompanied my wife to Mass even on vacations because she is devout- can’t get her to come on to the forums tho’- (I’m not that smart in the Faith") - so I went to RCIA offered by our church for people who wan to learn more- then I got on Catholic Answers and got the books about the early church fathers and read them- I’m a surgeon, majored in Physics and love history- go figure- but what the early church fathers talk about the Eucharist and scriptures and tradition and the fact that the Deacon who ran the RCIA program had been Lutheran made it very easy- there is not that much different in Catholic /Lutheran tenets.

Blessings to you as you continue your faith journey and your preparation to be received into the Catholic Church. Blessings to your family and devout bride! I have many formerly Lutheran friends who married faithful Catholic women and later converted. You are in very good company!

 

[Sojourner61]

In Aramaic, Al’lah simply means “the god”. Muslims don’t accept the Trinity and only see Jesus as ‘the sinless prophet’. I have never gone head-to-head with a Muslim concerning theology, but my conviction is that we should treat them a Jesus would-with love, and prayer for their eyes to be opened to the truth.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

If so why do we appear to behave as if each group has a “monopoly” over a particular version of the same God?

Care to discuss?

In order to believe this, one must accept that God can be a contradictory Being. For God cannot be both the Holy Trinity and not the Holy Trinity at the same time. It is contradictory to believe that Jesus is both God and not God at the same time. This is a sufficient reason itself to understand that the God of Scripture and the god of the Qu’ran are two concepts entirely opposed to one another.

 

[St_Nephi]

Hello,

I often hear certain individuals say that they are worshipping the same God as another individual of a different religion, despite believing different things about that God. This idea of compatiblism doesn’t quite make sense to me.

To begin, I must point out that I’m an atheist, so I don’t exactly have a dog in this race, I just find it curiously strange when, say, a Mormon tells a Christian that he is worshipping the same God as him, or a Christian to a Jew, Muslim to a Christian, etc. These different religions ascribe different, and often mutually exclusive qualities to their God so how is it possible to be worshipping the same God… who just so happens to be different?

As an analogy, let’s say I approach you and say “Hey, have you met my neighbor Jim before?” to which you reply “Oh, yes! Jim. He’s a swell guy. Tall, dark and handsome. He really has his way with the ladies.” If I were to say “Well, no. Jim is actually quite short and average looking. He’s also a recluse and far too timid to ever approach a woman.” could we really say we’re speaking of the same Jim?

Coming back to the specific question at hand: Islam teaches that God neither begets nor is begotten, while Christianity teaches that God both begets and is begotten. It’s logically impossible to harbor both sets of qualities and still be the same being as each set is mutually exclusive, so it seems to me that it’s in no way logically tenable to say that Islam and Christianity profess belief in the same God.

Thoughts?

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Hello,

I often hear certain individuals say that they are worshipping the same God as another individual of a different religion, despite believing different things about that God. This idea of compatiblism doesn’t quite make sense to me.

To begin, I must point out that I’m an atheist, so I don’t exactly have a dog in this race, I just find it curiously strange when, say, a Mormon tells a Christian that he is worshipping the same God as him, or a Christian to a Jew, Muslim to a Christian, etc. These different religions ascribe different, and often mutually exclusive qualities to their God so how is it possible to be worshipping the same God… who just so happens to be different?

As an analogy, let’s say I approach you and say “Hey, have you met my neighbor Jim before?” to which you reply “Oh, yes! Jim. He’s a swell guy. Tall, dark and handsome. He really has his way with the ladies.” If I were to say “Well, no. Jim is actually quite short and average looking. He’s also a recluse and far too timid to ever approach a woman.” could we really say we’re speaking of the same Jim?

Coming back to the specific question at hand: Islam teaches that God neither begets nor is begotten, while Christianity teaches that God both begets and is begotten. It’s logically impossible to harbor both sets of qualities and still be the same being as each set is mutually exclusive, so it seems to me that it’s in no way logically tenable to say that Islam and Christianity profess belief in the same God.

Thoughts?

I agree completely, St Nephi. Such attitudes toward religion assume, for the sake of appearing to not be judgmental, that religious truth is subjective. For a concept of a perceived greater good, contradiction and illogic are inserted into the tenets of the faith, even though such things as the law of non-contradiction, are just as applicable to religion as they are to the sciences. The God of Scripture is a rational, logical Being who is able to communicate with His creation in such as a way that His creation can understand Him. To then say that God can contradict Himself in revealed truth is to deny this basic understanding of God as He presents Himself in Scripture.

 

[Dale_M]

As an analogy, let’s say I approach you and say “Hey, have you met my neighbor Jim before?” to which you reply “Oh, yes! Jim. He’s a swell guy. Tall, dark and handsome. He really has his way with the ladies.” If I were to say “Well, no. Jim is actually quite short and average looking. He’s also a recluse and far too timid to ever approach a woman.” could we really say we’re speaking of the same Jim?

Coming back to the specific question at hand: Islam teaches that God neither begets nor is begotten, while Christianity teaches that God both begets and is begotten. It’s logically impossible to harbor both sets of qualities and still be the same being as each set is mutually exclusive, so it seems to me that it’s in no way logically tenable to say that Islam and Christianity profess belief in the same God.

Of course, none of us have ever met God. We may talk with God and be taught about God, but both of those allow for errors and misunderstandings on our part.

Using your analogy, my telephone experiences with Jim may give me the impression that he is a judgmental and vindictive person. However, another person’s experience may be that Jim comes across as compassionate and helpful. Its the same Jim, but the experiences (or more accurately, the perceptions of those experiences) of others may differ.

To use your example of contrasting the understanding of God in Islam and Christianity, Catholics (and other Christians) would say that we have the correct impressions of God and that Muslims have gotten the wrong impressions and are passing along those false understandings. Same God, but Christians have a better understanding of what God is really like.

 

[bmullins]

To give an example similar to Dale_M’s: There is a very religious man that I know well and spend some time with that I think is one of the most loving fellows around. He seems so spiritually deep and humble. I see him as very forgiving and kind.

He works with another friend of mine. When she describes him she talks about how he is so angry and rough. How he never forgives and holds grudges.

We both know this fellow. We both have seen his actions and what he does, but we’ve both come to different conclusions. Now can you say that when I talk to this man that I am not talking to him? No. You can tell me I don’t have a right perception of him. That he isn’t loving but angry. Or you can tell me that I have the right perception of him and she has the wrong. That doesn’t mean that she doesn’t actually talk to him either, just that she has the wrong ideas about him.

That is how I see the Catholic stance. The Catholic stance is that the church is guided by the Holy Spirit through an unbroken line of Apostolic succession and has the ‘right perception’ of God in as much as man is able to perceive God at this time. That doesn’t mean that others aren’t searching for God or worshiping God… just that they haven’t quite gotten the right view of him yet.

 

[onemangang]

Without sounding to much like a liberal, I would say that we all know God through our faith traditions and Nature imperfectly. The Catholic claim would be we have been given the fullness of God’s revelation to man. The fullness of that Revelation subsist in the CATHOLIC Church. Hence the Fullness of the Truth the Catholics are always talking about

Do we know God? Yes! Perfectly? NO!

If you are to use the law of contradiction in matters of Who is God, then you would have many different answers in Christendom alone.

Let’s have a hypothetical discussion.

(Catholic) I say Jesus started a visible Church. I believe that He gives himself to me in body, blood, soul, and divinity! What say you?

(Hypothetical Evangelical, not you specifically)
I say He did not set up a visible church, but one that is invisible, and I don’t believe He gives Himself to me in that manner.

(Catholic) Who do you believe in then, that is not my Jesus!

(Hypothetical Evangelical) Well, my Jesus didn’t do as you say He did!

(Catholic) Ipso facto…We have a different Jesus, since Jesus is God, we have a different God!

(Hypothetical Evangelical) Agreed!

God is much greater than our finite knowledge of Him!

 

[PRmerger]

Having once been Methodist, and having spent 5 years at a Duke Divinity School, which is affiliated with the United Methodist Church, I can assure you that there are a number of Methodists who believe in the real presence of Christ in the eucharist.

Very good, then. I stand corrected.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Without sounding to much like a liberal, I would say that we all know God through our faith traditions and Nature imperfectly. The Catholic claim would be we have been given the fullness of God’s revelation to man. The fullness of that Revelation subsist in the CATHOLIC Church. Hence the Fullness of the Truth the Catholics are always talking about

Do we know God? Yes! Perfectly? NO!

If you are to use the law of contradiction in matters of Who is God, then you would have many different answers in Christendom alone.

Let’s have a hypothetical discussion.

(Catholic) I say Jesus started a visible Church. I believe that He gives himself to me in body, blood, soul, and divinity! What say you?

(Hypothetical Evangelical, not you specifically)
I say He did not set up a visible church, but one that is invisible, and I don’t believe He gives Himself to me in that manner.

(Catholic) Who do you believe in then, that is not my Jesus!

(Hypothetical Evangelical) Well, my Jesus didn’t do as you say He did!

(Catholic) Ipso facto…We have a different Jesus, since Jesus is God, we have a different God!

(Hypothetical Evangelical) Agreed!

God is much greater than our finite knowledge of Him!

I don’t believe your analogy is comparable in any way to saying that Jesus is both God and NOT God. That is a contradiction. I agree there are many things Jesus said that are interpreted differently within Christian faith traditions. That does not, however, change who Jesus IS. All Christians affirm that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, suffered under Pontius Piate, died, rose, and will come again. This is affirmed universally. This gets to the question of who Jesus is, not what he said or how it’s to be seen. Muslims deny ALL of the above. So in what sense is it the “same” God?

 

[PRmerger]

There is no illogic. You are grasping at straws in your effort to defend Islam’s non-Trinitatian god.

I have never once defended Islam’s non-Trinitarian God but only affirmed my Church’s teaching that they adore, together with Catholics, the one God who is merciful and judges all at the end of time.

Nothing more, and certainly nothing less.

And I will continue to engage in dialogue with Muslims, evangelizing them to come to an understanding of the Triune God. That they believe in One God is admirable and I love that about them. That they reject Christ saddens me greatly.

I don’t see why there’s such a problem in understanding that I can celebrate with someone where they got it right and provide catechesis for that same someone for when she gets it wrong.

I do that every day with Methodists, Baptists and other non-Catholic Christians–celebrating the truth that we share in Jesus Christ and offering assistance with the Fullness of Truth where they have been misled.

It’s not that difficult a paradigm to navigate, Mickey. Again: where Muslims get it right, we ought to celebrate. And where they get it wrong, we ought to correct.

Easy to comprehend this paradigm, really.

 

[St_Nephi]

To the users “bmullins” and “Dale_M”:

I hope you two don’t mind that I treat your posts as one given that you two independently came up with rather similar responses to my question.

In both of your scenarios the quality being evaluated is a subjective one (In Dale’s case the quality at hand is judgment and vindication vs. compassion and helpfulness and in bmullins’ case the dichotomy is one of forgiveness and compassion versus anger and “roughness”)

The quality I singled out in my original post was one of objective nature. We’re not talking about what you think of the character of this God, rather what this God is.

To humor the analogy I’ve already brought into evidence:

I say my neighbor Jim is kind, but another guy says my neighbor Jim is an ***. We can both be speaking of the same Jim given that the quality in question is one of subjectivity.

When a Muslim says “God neither begets nor is begotten” and when a Christian says that he believes Jesus Christ is BEGOTTEN of the Father, these are qualities that are not matters of subjective experience of temperance. We’re no longer dealing with differences in psychoanalysis, rather we’re dealing with differences in substance.

If I say my neighbor Jim is 50 years old and you tell me the Jim you’re talking about is 5 years old, we’re obviously talking about different “Jims” since it’s impossible for an individual to simultaneously be both 50 and 5 years old.

Similarly, it’s impossible for a God to be simultaneously begotten and NOT begotten.

 

[Mickey]

I have never once defended Islam’s non-Trinitarian God

It sure seems otherwise to me.

That they believe in One God is admirable and I love that about them. That they reject Christ saddens me greatly.

Rejecting Christ and the Holy Spirit means that they are not worshipping the one true God…the Triune God. And you love that about them?

It’s not that difficult a paradigm to navigate

And as I said…you have free will to navigate that paradigm if you wish.

And at this point…I really have had enough threads about how Catholics think they have the same god as the Muslims. I think I’ll leave this one now.

Bye!

 

[PRmerger]

It sure seems otherwise to me.

That’s because you have an obduracy that is not open to changing your opinion.

Rejecting Christ and the Holy Spirit means that they are not worshipping the one true God…

Except that my Church says that they do indeed, together with other Catholics, adore the one merciful God who judges.

I cannot change those words written in my Catechism. In fact, I proclaim them with a hearty Amen!

They are clear to all what the Church’s position is. TOGETHER WITH US, they adore the one God.