Not the same God?

[PRmerger]

I don’t see why there’s such a problem in understanding that I can celebrate with someone where they got it right and provide catechesis for that same someone for when she gets it wrong

Incidentally, I am reading the book, “Unplanned” about Abby Johnson, the Planned Parenthood clinic director who became Pro-Life after seeing an abortion performed.

While I detest and abhor the fact that Planned Parenthood performs this odious procedure, I will also applaud them for saving a woman’s life after giving her a pelvic exam and suspecting cervical cancer. The nurse practitioner did the right thing in correctly identifying the pathology and referred this woman for treatment and thereby saved her life.

Kudos to this health care provider for doing that.

To the degree that PP gets it right, I will give them credit for it. To the degree that they grossly and abominably get it wrong, I will provide my objection.

That’s what logical people do. And, again, it’s not that difficult a paradigm to comprehend.

 

[Mickey]

That’s because you have an obduracy

Sigh. Sadly, it always descends to name calling.

Except that my Church says that they do indeed, together with other Catholics, adore the one merciful God who judges.

According to some Catholics… that is debatable.

TOGETHER WITH US, they adore the one God.

And I say…a hearty…NO WAY!

 

[Mickey]

To the degree that PP gets it right, I will give them credit for it.

They are a sick and heinous abortion mill…the largest abortion provider in the nation. They are responsible for the murder of millions of babies. The blood of these unborn martyrs cries out for justice. I cannot believe you applaud them in any way, form or fashion. I am utterly disgusted.

You have now become the third person to make it to my ignore list.

 

[RebeccaJ]

From the Catholic perspective, the objectiveness lies in the OT. Christ fulfilling the prophecies of the OT. The OT is Hebrew scripture. To say we are worshipping different Gods wouldn’t even make sense. We are worshipping the same God, only Jews reject Jesus as God (and Messiah).

For Moslems. They are children of Abraham, and so too are worshipping the same God. Like Jews, they reject Jesus as God, though accept Him as a revered prophet.

Because of this they reject the Incarnation, or the “begotteness”, if you will, of Jesus. This rejection does not mean for us that they are worshipping a different God. It is to us a matter of rejecting the full truth of Who God IS.

As for Mormons saying they worship the same God. Got me. I find it hard to reciprocate that idea with them. Can’t do it. Polytheism and self-as-god doesn’t align at all. Not rooted in the OT, but in 19th century American enlightenment (so called).

There are false gods.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hello,

I often hear certain individuals say that they are worshipping the same God as another individual of a different religion, despite believing different things about that God. This idea of compatiblism doesn’t quite make sense to me.

To begin, I must point out that I’m an atheist, so I don’t exactly have a dog in this race, I just find it curiously strange when, say, a Mormon tells a Christian that he is worshipping the same God as him, or a Christian to a Jew, Muslim to a Christian, etc. These different religions ascribe different, and often mutually exclusive qualities to their God so how is it possible to be worshipping the same God… who just so happens to be different?

As an analogy, let’s say I approach you and say “Hey, have you met my neighbor Jim before?” to which you reply “Oh, yes! Jim. He’s a swell guy. Tall, dark and handsome. He really has his way with the ladies.” If I were to say “Well, no. Jim is actually quite short and average looking. He’s also a recluse and far too timid to ever approach a woman.” could we really say we’re speaking of the same Jim?

Coming back to the specific question at hand: Islam teaches that God neither begets nor is begotten, while Christianity teaches that God both begets and is begotten. It’s logically impossible to harbor both sets of qualities and still be the same being as each set is mutually exclusive, so it seems to me that it’s in no way logically tenable to say that Islam and Christianity profess belief in the same God.

Thoughts?

Reconsider your analogy.

Jim is. No one has ever seen Jim. Jim is what others percieve Jim to be. It is probable that all have some elements of Jim correct in the sense that Jim is. Then we take the situation where Jim actually spent some time with a family and that family tells everyone what Jim is like since they believe they saw him. This would make more sense.

 

[CopticChristian]

In order to believe this, one must accept that God can be a contradictory Being. For God cannot be both the Holy Trinity and not the Holy Trinity at the same time. It is contradictory to believe that Jesus is both God and not God at the same time. This is a sufficient reason itself to understand that the God of Scripture and the god of the Qu’ran are two concepts entirely opposed to one another.

Iggy,

I have been busy and will complete my dialogue with you. I believe that you can only see what you can see. Paul believed in God that was not the Trinity. Paul had scales fall from his eyes and saw and taught the trinity. This was by revelation. Was it not the same God?

 

[St_Nephi]

From the Catholic perspective, the objectiveness lies in the OT. Christ fulfilling the prophecies of the OT. The OT is Hebrew scripture. To say we are worshipping different Gods wouldn’t even make sense. We are worshipping the same God, only Jews reject Jesus as God (and Messiah).

I purposefully avoided the Jewish/Christian connection for a reason: It’s quite sticky. I’m willing to concede (with some caveats) that Christians and Jews believe in the same God (hopefully without offending either Christian or Jew).

For Moslems. They are children of Abraham, and so too are worshipping the same God. Like Jews, they reject Jesus as God, though accept Him as a revered prophet.

I have to disagree with you here, for the same reasons I disagreed with the previous two posters.

Both Christians and Muslims say they worship the God of Abraham. Just like I and the hypothetical other person say they know Jim. Saying that we both know the same Jim simply because we both call him “Jim” doesn’t really tell us much about Jim’s substance. I pointed out a very specific, mutually exclusive attribute of God professed by one tradition which is negated by another, and until this is addressed I don’t see how this is anything but special pleading.

As for Mormons saying they worship the same God. Got me. I find it hard to reciprocate that idea with them. Can’t do it. Polytheism and self-as-god doesn’t align at all. Not rooted in the OT, but in 19th century American enlightenment (so called).

There are false gods.

Well I mentioned Mormons because I’m intimately familiar with them (ex-Mormon here). But it goes to prove my case. The LDS, like Muslims, “profess” to have belief in the same God as Christians (and if I’m not mistaken, it’s that exact verbiage which the Catholic Catechism uses to link its solidarity with Muslims).

Reasonable people would admit that Mormons actually believe in a substantially different God than Christians due to the nature of that God. Similarly, Muslims have a substantively different conception of God than Christians. You can’t avoid the dichotomy I’ve proposed: Either God is begotten or isn’t begotten. He cannot be both. Similarly a person cannot both be white and not white, or male and not male. This is a matter of basic logic and not one of theology.

I don’t mean to get caught up in specific religious examples, when my original question involved compatiblism in general, so I hope I’m not breaking any forum rules by mentioning Muslims and Mormons with too high of frequency!

Regards,

St Nephi

 

[St_Nephi]

Reconsider your analogy.

Jim is. No one has ever seen Jim. Jim is what others percieve Jim to be. It is probable that all have some elements of Jim correct in the sense that Jim is. Then we take the situation where Jim actually spent some time with a family and that family tells everyone what Jim is like since they believe they saw him. This would make more sense.

In this case, Jim can be whatever anyone wants him to be, since Jim has never been seen.

I guess Buddhists, Wiccans, and Christians believe in the same God? Who’s to say otherwise?

 

[PRmerger]

Sigh. Sadly, it always descends to name calling.

Name calling?

According to some Catholics… that is debatable.

Actually, it’s according to the Catechism.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and** together with us **they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I especially love the part in bold.

There is no arguing with the text. It says what it says quite clearly without any obfuscation.

 

[PRmerger]

They are a sick and heinous abortion mill…

Indeed.

I cannot believe you applaud them in any way, form or fashion. I am utterly disgusted.

That’s too bad that you do not see saving a life as a good thing.

If a serial killer stops another serial killer from murdering my family, I will see that as a good thing.

I don’t see how any logical person would say, “It’s disgusting that that serial killer saved your family!”

You have now become the third person to make it to my ignore list.

No matter. I wasn’t posting for your benefit anyway. Clearly your obduracy is impenetrable by logic and human intervention.

At any rate, there are at least a hundred lurkers on this thread, going by its statistics, and it is to their logic and reason I appeal.
[SIGN]
Again, Catholics, we must affirm this statement: Muslims, TOGETHER WITH US, adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.[/SIGN]

 

[jam070406]

Indeed.

That’s too bad that you do not see saving a life as a good thing.

If a serial killer stops another serial killer from murdering my family, I will see that as a good thing.

I don’t see how any logical person would say, “It’s disgusting that that serial killer saved your family!”

No matter. I wasn’t posting for your benefit anyway. Clearly your obduracy is impenetrable by logic and human intervention.

At any rate, there are at least a hundred lurkers on this thread, going by its statistics, and it is to their logic and reason I appeal.
[SIGN]
Again, Catholics, we must affirm this statement: Muslims, TOGETHER WITH US, adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.[/SIGN]

Not your interpretation.

 

[jam070406]

Name calling?

Actually, it’s according to the Catechism.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and** together with us **they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I especially love the part in bold.

There is no arguing with the text. It says what it says quite clearly without any obfuscation.

You going start going to mosque and bow to Mecca? You’ll need to do Haj also. That’s how Muslims worship, the part you love so much.

 

[jam070406]

They are a sick and heinous abortion mill…the largest abortion provider in the nation. They are responsible for the murder of millions of babies. The blood of these unborn martyrs cries out for justice. I cannot believe you applaud them in any way, form or fashion. I am utterly disgusted.

You have now become the third person to make it to my ignore list.

Yeah, we are to fight evil and avoid near occasions of sin. Not applaud them. The depths this thread has sunk to defend Islam is amazing. Some claiming they love their worship. Lord have mercy.

 

[jam070406]

From the Catholic perspective, the objectiveness lies in the OT. Christ fulfilling the prophecies of the OT. The OT is Hebrew scripture. To say we are worshipping different Gods wouldn’t even make sense. We are worshipping the same God, only Jews reject Jesus as God (and Messiah).

For Moslems. They are children of Abraham, and so too are worshipping the same God. Like Jews, they reject Jesus as God, though accept Him as a revered prophet.

Because of this they reject the Incarnation, or the “begotteness”, if you will, of Jesus. This rejection does not mean for us that they are worshipping a different God. It is to us a matter of rejecting the full truth of Who God IS.

As for Mormons saying they worship the same God. Got me. I find it hard to reciprocate that idea with them. Can’t do it. Polytheism and self-as-god doesn’t align at all. Not rooted in the OT, but in 19th century American enlightenment (so called).

There are false gods.

Muslims are NOT children of Abraham!!
Islam is a 7th century novelty.

 

[cho_pilo]

Perhaps it would be better to see these verse’s…

841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842
The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . .331

843
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844
In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845
To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

verses from what exactly?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

verses from what exactly?

These are excerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

 

[Mickey]

Yeah, we are to fight evil and avoid near occasions of sin. Not applaud them. The depths this thread has sunk to defend Islam is amazing. Some claiming they love their worship. Lord have mercy.

Yes my brother in Christ. To applaud an organization for (possibly) saving an adult life, while the same organization murders millions of babies in cold blood…is a monstrous way of thinking. I am so sad at some of the things I read on this forum.

Lord have mercy!

 

[Dale_M]

The quality I singled out in my original post was one of objective nature. We’re not talking about what you think of the character of this God, rather what this God is.

To humor the analogy I’ve already brought into evidence:

I say my neighbor Jim is kind, but another guy says my neighbor Jim is an ***. We can both be speaking of the same Jim given that the quality in question is one of subjectivity.

When a Muslim says “God neither begets nor is begotten” and when a Christian says that he believes Jesus Christ is BEGOTTEN of the Father, these are qualities that are not matters of subjective experience of temperance. We’re no longer dealing with differences in psychoanalysis, rather we’re dealing with differences in substance.

If I say my neighbor Jim is 50 years old and you tell me the Jim you’re talking about is 5 years old, we’re obviously talking about different “Jims” since it’s impossible for an individual to simultaneously be both 50 and 5 years old.

Similarly, it’s impossible for a God to be simultaneously begotten and NOT begotten.

Indeed. However, it is possible for the Christian understanding of God to be accurate while the Muslim understanding of God is imperfect and contains errors.

Both Muslims and Christians worship the same God, the God of Abraham. However, the Muslim understanding is flawed.

That is pretty much what the Catholic Church teaches. In another thread you asked about the Church’s official position regarding other religions. In my reply, I referred you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and cited the relevant sections. I will quote some of those sections now:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM

 

[Contarini]

The lengths that have gone to defend Islam is astonishing. We’ve come to a point where the Holy Spirit and Jesus are left out of the equation, regarding Mass, to appease Islam.

Nobody has done anything of the sort.

I am happy that those of us who defend the Catholic Catechism’s generous and orthodox position astonish you. If we didn’t, it wouldn’t be much of a conversation, would it?

But in fact no one is cutting the Trinity out of the Mass.

You and Mickey have repeatedly, willfully, and stubbornly misrepresented what my “side” is saying.

We say: “Muslims and Christians worship the same God.”

You say: “So you worship the non-Trinitarian god of Islam.”

We say: “No, they worship the Trinitarian God but don’t realize it.”

You say: “So you worship the non-Trinitarian god of Islam.”

You persist in accusing us of “worshiping the Muslim god” when in fact what we are saying over and over again is that they worship our God, the Triune God, by virtue of worshiping the one eternal, merciful, and just Creator, as they explicitly do. We know that that Creator is Triune. They refuse to acknowledge that.

Now you may disagree, but stop misrepresenting what we are saying by somehow implying that we are downplaying or denying the Trinity.

This is the relativism Pope Benedict warns about.

Are you suggesting that Pope Benedict agrees that Muslims and Christians don’t worship the same God?

Edwin

 

[RebeccaJ]

I purposefully avoided the Jewish/Christian connection for a reason: It’s quite sticky. I’m willing to concede (with some caveats) that Christians and Jews believe in the same God (hopefully without offending either Christian or Jew).

I have to disagree with you here, for the same reasons I disagreed with the previous two posters.

Both Christians and Muslims say they worship the God of Abraham. Just like I and the hypothetical other person say they know Jim. Saying that we both know the same Jim simply because we both call him “Jim” doesn’t really tell us much about Jim’s substance. I pointed out a very specific, mutually exclusive attribute of God professed by one tradition which is negated by another, and until this is addressed I don’t see how this is anything but special pleading.

Well I mentioned Mormons because I’m intimately familiar with them (ex-Mormon here). But it goes to prove my case. The LDS, like Muslims, “profess” to have belief in the same God as Christians (and if I’m not mistaken, it’s that exact verbiage which the Catholic Catechism uses to link its solidarity with Muslims).

Reasonable people would admit that Mormons actually believe in a substantially different God than Christians due to the nature of that God. Similarly, Muslims have a substantively different conception of God than Christians. You can’t avoid the dichotomy I’ve proposed: Either God is begotten or isn’t begotten. He cannot be both. Similarly a person cannot both be white and not white, or male and not male. This is a matter of basic logic and not one of theology.

I don’t mean to get caught up in specific religious examples, when my original question involved compatiblism in general, so I hope I’m not breaking any forum rules by mentioning Muslims and Mormons with too high of frequency!

Regards,

St Nephi

I recommend that you read the beginning of the CCC. Catholic teaching is, we are created by God out of love, and God has placedn us a desire to love God in return. All who believe and seek to follow God do so because of the grace God has given us. All contain some level of truth, the Catholic Church containing the fullness of truth.

Our objective measurement is Jesus Christ, the Apostolic teachings, and the Holy Church. As I explained, from the Catholic perspective, which is objective, that object being Jesus Christ. Who is of course the object of our faith. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three persons of the Triune God. Moslems, from our view, believe in and worship the Father only. Their understanding of the nature of God the Father is exactly the same as ours. As I said they reject Jesus as God, and so do not contain a fullness of truth. This does not mean that what they believe about the nature of the first Person of the Trimity is in error.

We also believe the covenants that God made with Abraham are permanent, and in effect today. As I said, Moslems are children of Abraham. We also see in the visit if the three angels to Abraham, God revealed as three Persons. This is the same God that Moslems worship today. How would it be possible for this to be a different God when we accept what God promised to Abraham?

Coming from a Mormon-gone-atheist background myself, I understand completely where you are coming from…I can only recommend that you approach what you are seeking with no preconceptions, you know, as though you are conducting an experiment and don’t want to influence the results with your own subjectivity. And prayer. Yes, it’s possible, even an atheist can pray, as awkward and silly you might feel, don’t let your own subjective feelings get in the way.