Not the same God?

[Mickey]

You and Mickey have repeatedly, willfully, and stubbornly misrepresented what my “side” is saying.

Your “side” is the one repeatedly, willfully, and stubbornly misrepresenting.

We say: “Muslims and Christians worship the same God.”

And that is wrong.

You say: “So you worship the non-Trinitarian god of Islam.”

Wrong. We say that Muslims worship a non-Trinitarian god.

We say: “No, they worship the Trinitarian God but don’t realize it.”

Wrong again. They truly realize they are worshipping a non-Trinitarian god.

You say: “So you worship the non-Trinitarian god of Islam.”

Wrong. We say that the Muslims are worshipping a non-Trinitarian god…and it is not the same God as the Christians because we worship the Triune God.

You persist in accusing us of “worshiping the Muslim god” when in fact what we are saying over and over again is that they worship our God, the Triune God,

Wrong, wrong, wrong. They willfully, admittedly and intentionally worship a non-Trinitarian god.

Now you may disagree, but stop misrepresenting what we are saying by somehow implying that we are downplaying or denying the Trinity.

You stop misrepresenting what we are saying please.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Iggy,

I have been busy and will complete my dialogue with you. I believe that you can only see what you can see. Paul believed in God that was not the Trinity. Paul had scales fall from his eyes and saw and taught the trinity. This was by revelation. Was it not the same God?

I look forward to finishing that one, Coptic.

Here’s the difference between the two. When Paul and other Jews prior to Christ’s coming believed in God, God had not yet explicitly revealed Himself to be triune (though there are certainly hints to this in the OT). It was the same God, who was still triune, however. It was not a different Being. The Jews also had the actual words of God in Scripture. The Qu’ran is not the word of God.

This is a vastly different situation than the Muslims. Islam came about 600 years after God revealed Himself to be the triune God. The Qu’ran acknowledges that Christians worship a triune God. It then goes about saying that this Trinity is false and a blasphemy to God. It says that Christians are heretics to believe that Jesus is God or the Son of God. Fundamentally, it is a different god because the Qu’ran rejects the Christian revelation of God completely. It contradicts it. A contradiction cannot be true.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Muslims are NOT children of Abraham!!
Islam is a 7th century novelty.

The CCC say’s the Muslims "PROFESS" to be the children of Abraham, because the Islam faith believes in one God, when Abraham expressed his faith in the One God whom Abraham cut the covenant with his God.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “Interpretation”. Interpretation from the ecumenical language of the CCC is important.

Muslims do not carry the circumcision covenant as the children of Abraham, nor the faith of Abraham by prodigy through Jesus Christ. Islam remain “infants” compared to Judaism and Catholicism in covenant and revelation of God, because they come along too late after both covenants were already established and fulfilled by God.

The CCC does not judge the disposition of non-catholics who sincerely seek the True God, because we are all children of the creator.

The CCC encourages Muslims and all other non-catholic religions to continue seeking God, because this is a Catholic Christian biblical practice.

Isaiah 55:6* Seek the LORD while he may be found,

call upon him while he is near.

7Let the wicked forsake their way,

and sinners their thoughts;

Let them turn to the LORD to find mercy;

to our God, who is generous in forgiving.

8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

nor are your ways my ways—oracle of the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways,

my thoughts higher than your thoughts

The CCC addresses all humanity who seeks our Creator, joins us in this journey “together” amongst Muslims who “Profess” to hold the faith of Abraham.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The CCC say’s the Muslims "PROFESS" to be the children of Abraham, because the Islam faith believes in one God, when Abraham expressed his faith in the One God whom Abraham cut the covenant with his God.

I think you hit the nail on the head when you said “Interpretation”. Interpretation from the ecumenical language of the CCC is important.

Muslims do not carry the circumcision covenant as the children of Abraham, nor the faith of Abraham by prodigy through Jesus Christ. Islam remain “infants” compared to Judaism and Catholicism in covenant and revelation of God, because they come along too late after both covenants were already established and fulfilled by God.

The CCC does not judge the disposition of non-catholics who sincerely seek the True God, because we are all children of the creator.

The CCC encourages Muslims and all other non-catholic religions to continue seeking God, because this is a Catholic Christian biblical practice.

Isaiah 55:6* Seek the LORD while he may be found,

call upon him while he is near.

7Let the wicked forsake their way,

and sinners their thoughts;

Let them turn to the LORD to find mercy;

to our God, who is generous in forgiving.

8For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

nor are your ways my ways—oracle of the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways,

my thoughts higher than your thoughts

The CCC addresses all humanity who seeks our Creator, joins us in this journey “together” amongst Muslims who “Profess” to hold the faith of Abraham.

 

[CopticChristian]

In this case, Jim can be whatever anyone wants him to be, since Jim has never been seen.

I guess Buddhists, Wiccans, and Christians believe in the same God? Who’s to say otherwise?

Nephi,

This would be consistent with the letter to the Romans. Paul says God is impartial and the God of all. Buddhists, Wiccans do not believe that God walked with them. Christians believe that God became man and was with them for a time and have stories about that. They believe in elements of the same thing. From our side the perspective is different than from God looking down seeing that no one is righteous and yet he sees his people.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Muslims are NOT children of Abraham!!
Islam is a 7th century novelty.

They seek to follow the God of Abraham. Intent is always a very important aspect of morality, in this case, the commandments re: love of God. While it is clear to us there are a number of grave errors in the religious beliefs of Islam, it is also clear the the Holy Spirit will and does work thrugh even the gravest of errors to bring all to Jesus Christ. God sees a Moslem in the same way He sees a Catholic, with Mercy, Love, and Destiny. That Destiny being Jesus Christ.

In terms of “same God”, there is for us but One God. If Moslems are following a different God, then they are following no God. Knowing the few Moselms I do, who are very devout and love the God of Abraham with great faith, I find that hard to accept.

 

[CopticChristian]

I look forward to finishing that one, Coptic.

Here’s the difference between the two. When Paul and other Jews prior to Christ’s coming believed in God, God had not yet explicitly revealed Himself to be triune (though there are certainly hints to this in the OT). It was the same God, who was still triune, however. It was not a different Being. The Jews also had the actual words of God in Scripture. The Qu’ran is not the word of God.

This is a vastly different situation than the Muslims. Islam came about 600 years after God revealed Himself to be the triune God. The Qu’ran acknowledges that Christians worship a triune God. It then goes about saying that this Trinity is false and a blasphemy to God. It says that Christians are heretics to believe that Jesus is God or the Son of God. Fundamentally, it is a different god because the Qu’ran rejects the Christian revelation of God completely. It contradicts it. A contradiction cannot be true.

I could say that the Trinity was evident in Genesis and not recognized. It was revealed.

I could say that Muslims are no different than Protestants that took the Book of the Church and created beliefs that are contradictory and not true. I could say that Protestants blaspheme.

I could say that Muslims are under the guidance of Islam. Islam came 600 years after Revalation. Islam is inherently wrong and yet not all Muslims are totally under the thumb of Islam. They are the transgenerational product of created beliefs.

Protestant thought came 1500 years later than Islam. Protestantism is inherently wrong and yet not all Protestants are totally under the thumb of Protestant thought. They are the transgenerational product of created beliefs.

We all, including me, inherit, transgenerational sin. You may want to look at the curses of Adam, Babylon, The golden calf and finally the work of King Manasseh in murdering babies and the subsequent division of Israel into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms. The Northern Kingdom was over run by Assyria and the Southern Kingdom over run by Babylon.

The point. The transgenerational sins require us to know what those sins are and to do something. When you know it is important then to do something about them. Those that inherit Islam through culture have no idea what they are born in to and when they discover what it is they are under obligation to get out and find truth.

There is no one righteous, no not one, all have gone astray, as they eat up my people…for God is with the generation of the righteous.

Amen?

 

[jam070406]

They seek to follow the God of Abraham. Intent is always a very important aspect of morality, in this case, the commandments re: love of God. While it is clear to us there are a number of grave errors in the religious beliefs of Islam, it is also clear the the Holy Spirit will and does work thrugh even the gravest of errors to bring all to Jesus Christ. God sees a Moslem in the same way He sees a Catholic, with Mercy, Love, and Destiny. That Destiny being Jesus Christ.

In terms of “same God”, there is for us but One God. If Moslems are following a different God, then they are following no God. Knowing the few Moselms I do, who are very devout and love the God of Abraham with great faith, I find that hard to accept.

They do not seek to follow the Faith of Abraham. Or else they would except Jesus and the Trinity. They follow a man made religion by a false prophet.

I will yet again repeat the Teaching of the Church.

The proper response to God’s revelation is “the obedience of faith (Rom 16:26; cf. Rom 1:5; 2 Cor 10:5-6) by which man freely entrusts his entire self to God, offering ‘the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals’ and freely assenting to the revelation given by him”. 15 Faith is a gift of grace: “in order to have faith, the grace of God must come first and give assistance; there must also be the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and gives ‘to everyone joy and ease in assenting to and believing in the truth’”. 16 The obedience of faith implies acceptance of the truth of Christ’s revelation, guaranteed by God, who is Truth itself: 17 “Faith is first of all a personal adherence of man to God. At the same time, and inseparably, it is a free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed

 

[jam070406]

Nobody has done anything of the sort.

Yes, she did. She attempted to equate Islam and Catholicism by saying we worship the Creator at Mass, while purposely leaving out Father, Son and Holy spirit. She watered down the Faith to prove her erroneous point.

I am happy that those of us who defend the Catholic Catechism’s generous and orthodox position astonish you. If we didn’t, it wouldn’t be much of a conversation, would it?

Except you have not defended an orthodox position. You have defended a liberal modernist, relativist position.

But in fact no one is cutting the Trinity out of the Mass.

Exactly. Nobody can in fact. And it proves that our worship is not the same. While some attempted to show that it was.

You and Mickey have repeatedly, willfully, and stubbornly misrepresented what my “side” is saying.

No. Your side has gone to absurd extremes to represent your “side”. We have only carried them out to their absurd conclusions.

We say: “Muslims and Christians worship the same God.”

Which is wrong because Muslims don’t have Faith, deny Jesus and do not profess the Trinity.

You say: “So you worship the non-Trinitarian god of Islam.”

I have not said this.

We say: “No, they worship the Trinitarian God but don’t realize it.”

Absurd and wrong. They REJECT Him!

You say: “So you worship the non-Trinitarian god of Islam.”

No. Christians worship the Trinity. Muslims reject the Trinity.

You persist in accusing us of “worshiping the Muslim god” when in fact what we are saying over and over again is that they worship our God, the Triune God, by virtue of worshiping the one eternal, merciful, and just Creator, as they explicitly do. We know that that Creator is Triune. They refuse to acknowledge that.

I have accused you of nothing.
They flat out reject the Trinity. Period.

Now you may disagree, but stop misrepresenting what we are saying by somehow implying that we are downplaying or denying the Trinity.

I do disagree.
By saying they worship the same God, you are saying their worship is pleasing to God. You completely downplay and negate the Holy sacrifice of the Mass and equate their worship with ours. I reject this relativism.

Are you suggesting that Pope Benedict agrees that Muslims and Christians don’t worship the same God?

Edwin

Pope Benedict issued Dominus Iesus which corrects alot of your faulty logic.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

They do not seek to follow the Faith of Abraham. Or else they would except Jesus and the Trinity.

Have the faithful of Hebrew tradition embraced Jesus as we have? Would we thus also argue that they do not follow the Faith of Abraham? Your statement can be carried forward in that manner.

And haven’t Muslims accepted Jesus (perhaps much more so than Jews), as they recognize him as a prophet (albeit a lesser one than Mohammed)?

It is agreed that much of what should have remained in Islam given their roots and lineage in Abraham is not evident in their belief system today. The CCC guides us accordingly and correctly in this regard. The Church is willing to look at Islam charitably, recognizing that they may not even see in themselves what we see in them - a common heritage and belief in the Creator. We are also willing to wait for them to figure out the Truth, and will always stand as witnesses and examples of the Truth. This is our duty as Catholics.

 

[jam070406]

Have the faithful of Hebrew tradition embraced Jesus as we have? Would we thus also argue that they do not follow the Faith of Abraham? Your statement can be carried forward in that manner.

Yes. They became His Apostles and went out to Baptize the nations.

And haven’t Muslims accepted Jesus (perhaps much more so than Jews), as they recognize him as a prophet (albeit a lesser one than Mohammed)?

To deny Jesus is God would be blasphemy my friend.

It is agreed that much of what should have remained in Islam given their roots and lineage in Abraham is not evident in their belief system today. The CCC guides us accordingly and correctly in this regard. The Church is willing to look at Islam charitably, recognizing that they may not even see in themselves what we see in them - a common heritage and belief in the Creator. We are also willing to wait for them to figure out the Truth, and will always stand as witnesses and examples of the Truth. This is our duty as Catholics.

Islam has no roots to Abraham.
Our duty as Catholics is to evangelize them and save their souls, which are in bondage to a false religion.
That is true charity.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Islam has no roots to Abraham.

That is not even factual.

Our duty as Catholics is to evangelize them and save their souls, which are in bondage to a false religion.

So where does one enlist in the next Army of the Crusades?

That is true charity.

True charity starts with tolerance on the side of the righteous. It ends with acceptance on the other side. You want to start there.

 

[Mickey]

Have the faithful of Hebrew tradition embraced Jesus as we have?

Their branch has been pruned from the root

Would we thus also argue that they do not follow the Faith of Abraham?

They no longer worship the God of Abraham…the Triune God.

 

[Mickey]

So where does one enlist in the next Army of the Crusades?

This sounds uncharitable.

 

[Simka]

Yes, Mickey, they do reject the Eucharist.

Please clarify what you mean by this. I have celebrated the Eucharist in the church of my brother-in-law, a Methodist preacher who readily presents the bread and wine of the Eucharist as representing the body of Christ broken for us, the blood of Jesus shed for us.

I have a hard time regarding that as “rejection”.

 

[jam070406]

That is not even factual.

Islam was created by a false prophet in the 7th century. Do you deny this?

So where does one enlist in the next Army of the Crusades?

I DESPISE this tactic. Not only did I NEVER suggest this. It’s a giant strawman argument that is an, uncharitable, veiled attack on me.

True charity starts with tolerance on the side of the righteous. It ends with acceptance on the other side. You want to start there.

Kindness to an individual, or individuals, is not to be confused with tolerance of error or evil.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

This sounds uncharitable.

Perhaps, but I also hope some of our good Jewish contibutors to this Forum do not stumble on this latest conclusion in this thread, that is, that they do not worship the God of Abraham. I would venture guess that they would find this horrific, let alone uncharitable.

We do not have a right to beat other people over the head because of their beliefs, or because of our views of the flaws in their beliefs. Some of the statements made here suggest just that approach. The Catholic Church does teach otherwise. Tolerance is not equivalent to acceptance. Tolerance does not suggest relativism, either, as some have also concluded here.

Do I believe we worship the same God? In the case of our Jewish friends, I actually do. I know many, and I’ve been a witness to their faith for many years. I do not know how that can be disputed. In the case of our Muslim friends, I’m really not sure, but from all I know it seems as if they have done enough damage to that understanding as to be seemingly irreparable.

But all this does not eliminate the possibility that one day we might reconcile our beliefs. How we get there seems to be at dispute here, as well.

The answer also depends on one’s perspective, another point which has been somewhat uncharitably debated here in general. If you chose to say simply that their’s is not the One, True Triune God as per our Faith, then there is no point in even having a discussion. If however one is more open-minded and seeks that which joins us rather than that which separates us, the possibilty of reconciliation exists.

 

[PRmerger]

You going start going to mosque and bow to Mecca? You’ll need to do Haj also. That’s how Muslims worship, the part you love so much.

I only love what the Church loves about them–*your *Church, BTW, jam, too.

 

[Simka]

For Moslems. They are children of Abraham, and so too are worshipping the same God. … There are false gods.

Rebecca, the fundamental difference is that when you ask a Muslim to describe and characterize the god they worship, you realize that this god is entirely incompatible with the person Christians and Jews know and worship as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He cannot be the same person.

Most Muslims do not contend that they worship the same God we do. Why are we so busy trying to inflict it on them?

You are right, there are false gods. And because in their nature and character the god of Christians and the god of Muslims are mutually exclusive, one of them is a false god.

Decide for yourself.

 

[PRmerger]

Not your interpretation.

What is your interpretation, then, of the Catechism, which proclaims this:

Originally Posted by the Magisterium of the One Holy Catholic Church of which Catholics must affirm:
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Please note that your response must be consistent with the title under which this particular except appears: The Church and non-Christians.

And include an explanation as to what you think it means that these non-Christians are doing this adoration TOGETHER WITH US.