Not the same God?

[jam070406]

I only love what the Church loves about them–*your *Church, BTW, jam, too.

Me too. That the gift of the Gospel is open to those individuals that will believe and accept it.

 

[jam070406]

What is your interpretation, then, of the Catechism, which proclaims this:

Please note that your response must be consistent with the title under which this particular except appears: The Church and non-Christians.

And include an explanation as to what you think it means that these non-Christians are doing this adoration TOGETHER WITH US.

I’m not gonna go through it again. I’ve said it over and over.
I’m sorry you don’t get it.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The fighting and arguing on this thread will cease immediately.
If we cannot discuss the topic like adults infractions and suspensions will be handed out.
Post with respect and charity as per forum rules.
No more warnings.

 

[PRmerger]

Please clarify what you mean by this. I have celebrated the Eucharist in the church of my brother-in-law, a Methodist preacher who readily presents the bread and wine of the Eucharist as representing the body of Christ broken for us, the blood of Jesus shed for us.

I have a hard time regarding that as “rejection”.

As I stated earlier, I was mistaken.

 

[PRmerger]

Both Muslims and Christians worship the same God, the God of Abraham. However, the Muslim understanding is flawed/

'zactly.

And a Catholic would offer a parallel: both Baptists and Catholics worship the same Christ, the 2nd Person of the Trinity, However, the Baptist understanding is flawed (in that they reject the Eucharist, reject the authority of the Church, reject Sacred Tradition, etc etc etc).

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Rebecca, the fundamental difference is that when you ask a Muslim to describe and characterize the god they worship, you realize that this god is entirely incompatible with the person Christians and Jews know and worship as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He cannot be the same person.

Most Muslims do not contend that they worship the same God we do. Why are we so busy trying to inflict it on them?

You are right, there are false gods. And because in their nature and character the god of Christians and the god of Muslims are mutually exclusive, one of them is a false god.

Decide for yourself.

Amen.

 

[PRmerger]

Rebecca, the fundamental difference is that when you ask a Muslim to describe and characterize the god they worship, you realize that this god is entirely incompatible with the person Christians and Jews know and worship as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He cannot be the same person.

Sure He can.

Muslims proclaim Allah is all merciful. That is absolutely correct.
Muslims proclaim that Allah is creator. That is absolutely correct.
Muslims proclaim we must submit our will to the Divine Will. That is absolutely correct.

Some of the “99 Beautiful Names of God (Asma al-Husna)” in the Koran are: the Creator, the Fashioner, the Life-Giver, the Provider, the Opener, the Bestower, the Prevailer, the Reckoner, the Recorder, the King of Kingship and the Lord of the Worlds.

What’s to disagree with on these points?

Allah is also transcendent and not a part of his creation.

They got that right, too.

Now, the inevitable response will be, “And Muslims also proclaim this* *”

Yep. Muslims surely have lots of wrong beliefs. :sad_yes:

Yet in proclaiming the above statements about God they have submitted to the Truth and for that we celebrate!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

PRmerger;8917241]Sure He can.

Muslims proclaim Allah is all merciful. That is absolutely correct.
Muslims proclaim that Allah is creator. That is absolutely correct.
Muslims proclaim we must submit our will to the Divine Will. That is absolutely correct.

Some of the “99 Beautiful Names of God (Asma al-Husna)” in the Koran are: the Creator, the Fashioner, the Life-Giver, the Provider, the Opener, the Bestower, the Prevailer, the Reckoner, the Recorder, the King of Kingship and the Lord of the Worlds.

What’s to disagree with on these points?

Allah is also transcendent and not a part of his creation.

They got that right, too.

Help me reconcile the below scripture with what you reveal about Islam? Iam addressing Islam not Muslims who have a wonderful “outer” discipline of prayer that I respect.

James 2:19 YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD IS ONE. YOU DO WELL. EVEN THE DEMONS BELIEVE THAT AND TREMBLE…

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

 

[CopticChristian]

The fighting and arguing on this thread will cease immediately.
If we cannot discuss the topic like adults infractions and suspensions will be handed out.
Post with respect and charity as per forum rules.
No more warnings.

I am at a loss. I look back at the 5 posts preceeding this one and see no arguing or fighting. Am I missing something here?

 

[PRmerger]

Help me reconcile the below scripture with what you reveal about Islam? Iam addressing Islam not Muslims who have a wonderful “outer” discipline of prayer that I respect.

James 2:19 YOU BELIEVE THAT GOD IS ONE. YOU DO WELL. EVEN THE DEMONS BELIEVE THAT AND TREMBLE…

20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?

The way we reconcile it is through the guidance of our Church. Our Church declares that it’s not that Islam BELIEVES THAT GOD IS ONE, but that they ADORE this One God, TOGETHER WITH US.

 

[JustaServant]

I am at a loss. I look back at the 5 posts preceeding this one and see no arguing or fighting. Am I missing something here?

I notice a few posts are deleted and one poster suspended. It was getting pretty hot and heavy in here yesterday.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The way we reconcile it is through the guidance of our Church. Our Church declares that it’s not that Islam BELIEVES THAT GOD IS ONE, but that they ADORE this One God, TOGETHER WITH US.

Ok understood, are the demons included in this same belief “together with us”? when scripture reveals that the demons believe God is one also.

The Church CCC references Muslims (humans who are children of the creator) not Islam. Re-read the CCC.

 

[PRmerger]

Ok understood, are the demons included in this same belief “together with us”? when scripture reveals that the demons believe God is one also.

No. Demons do not adore God together with us.

The Church CCC references Muslims (humans who are children of the creator) not Islam. Re-read the CCC.

Ok.

Not sure what this distinction means to you, but I can certainly substitute “Muslims” for “Islam” in whatever further dialogue we pursue.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

No. Demons do not adore God together with us.

Ok.

Not sure what this distinction means to you, but I can certainly substitute “Muslims” for “Islam” in whatever further dialogue we pursue.

Thank you; I believe the CCC addresses Muslims distinct from the religion of Islam.

Islam originally defined means “surrender” to God. This battle cry Muhommed made to the Arab tribes who believed in multiplicity of spirits were forced to convert to one God or die.

Islam removed the Arab tribes false (innumerable) spirit gods into believing in only one God.

**Muslim is a person **who follows Islam which is a “surrendering to God” in practice.

Muhammed did well in removing false idol worship from the Arabs in surrendering to one God.

Muhammed’s Koran corrects the Tora by replacing Abrahams son Isaac to be sacrificed with Ishmael among many other corrections of the old testament introduced by Muhammed Koran.

How did the first writers of the old testament God get it wrong and Muhammed thousands of years later get it right? Was the first God not God? Or is Muhammed God greater than the old testament God who got it wrong?

Muhammed started out good by “converting” Arabs from their error. But then Muhammed introduced his “governing” of people and conquering, Islam now becomes an Imperial religion. A diabolical combination of secular power mixed with his new founded religion, which is a repeat of many fallen historical powerful empires which eventually met their demise, biblically speaking those who follow this path will continue to achieve greatness and ultimately fall.

I find the Kaba very interesting in Islam, the large black holy stone which symbols the presence of the divine. Some have traced this black stone originally to be a meteorite the size of a bowling ball. I have yet to see the significance of how God revealed himself or is present at this black stone?

The disposition of the Muslims to our creator is to be acknowledged. Although this is revealed in an outer expression, only God knows and judges the inner heart of man. Which I think the CCC is addressing the disposition of the Muslim towards God our creator.

Islam on the other hand denies or rejects the revelation of God from the trinity. Catholicism and Islam reveal two different revelations of God. From these revelations reveal distinct belief’s in God. Catholicism reveals to be son’s of God, Islam reveals to be slaves of God. Catholics rightly call God “Abba, Father”, Muslims relate to the creator as “Allah”.

Catholics and Muslims and all of humanity express their faith in our Creator together from our humanity in one way or another, the CCC reveals this to be a positive. The CCC encourages this as a way to ecumenical dialogue and friendship, which is needed. Our differing revelations of God should not be a means of destroying one another, but allow us to communicate.

Catholicism loves her enemies, Islam hates it’s enemies. In here reveals ones service to God.

Catholicism and Islam have differing views of the revelation of God. Because these views contradict one another, from their own revelations when compared side by side, reveals that one God does not exist or one God is a deciever.

The point I make is that the CCC is addressing the humanity and disposition of the Muslim not the ideologies of Islam’s diety. Our ideologies of God differ with Islam. Our humanity together recognize one God to be our creator.

 

[Mickey]

Both Muslims and Christians worship the same God, the God of Abraham.

I don’t believe that for a New York minute.

 

[rinnie]

The Church teaches that the Triune God is Faithful to reveal Himself to the hearts and minds of those that entrust in full submission the intellect and will.
Those that reject Truth cannot know Truth.

Agreed the Church also teaches us that the Muslims, Jews and Christians also have the same God the God of Abraham.

So tell me, how do those who accept the faith of Abraham reject truth?

 

[rinnie]

I don’t believe that for a New York minute.

But Mickey where does what YOU believe have anything to do with this?

I do not see where there was asked on what our own personal belief was.

 

[rinnie]

Thank you; I believe the CCC addresses Muslims distinct from the religion of Islam.

Islam originally defined means “surrender” to God. This battle cry Muhommed made to the Arab tribes who believed in multiplicity of spirits were forced to convert to one God or die.

Islam removed the Arab tribes false (innumerable) spirit gods into believing in only one God.

**Muslim is a person **who follows Islam which is a “surrendering to God” in practice.

Muhammed did well in removing false idol worship from the Arabs in surrendering to one God.

Muhammed’s Koran corrects the Tora by replacing Abrahams son Isaac to be sacrificed with Ishmael among many other corrections of the old testament introduced by Muhammed Koran.

How did the first writers of the old testament God get it wrong and Muhammed thousands of years later get it right? Was the first God not God? Or is Muhammed God greater than the old testament God who got it wrong?

Muhammed started out good by “converting” Arabs from their error. But then Muhammed introduced his “governing” of people and conquering, Islam now becomes an Imperial religion. A diabolical combination of secular power mixed with his new founded religion, which is a repeat of many fallen historical powerful empires which eventually met their demise, biblically speaking those who follow this path will continue to achieve greatness and ultimately fall.

I find the Kaba very interesting in Islam, the large black holy stone which symbols the presence of the divine. Some have traced this black stone originally to be a meteorite the size of a bowling ball. I have yet to see the significance of how God revealed himself or is present at this black stone?

The disposition of the Muslims to our creator is to be acknowledged. Although this is revealed in an outer expression, only God knows and judges the inner heart of man. Which I think the CCC is addressing the disposition of the Muslim towards God our creator.

Islam on the other hand denies or rejects the revelation of God from the trinity. Catholicism and Islam reveal two different revelations of God. From these revelations reveal distinct belief’s in God. Catholicism reveals to be son’s of God, Islam reveals to be slaves of God. Catholics rightly call God “Abba, Father”, Muslims relate to the creator as “Allah”.

Catholics and Muslims and all of humanity express their faith in our Creator together from our humanity in one way or another, the CCC reveals this to be a positive. The CCC encourages this as a way to ecumenical dialogue and friendship, which is needed. Our differing revelations of God should not be a means of destroying one another, but allow us to communicate.

Catholicism loves her enemies, Islam hates it’s enemies. In here reveals ones service to God.

Catholicism and Islam have differing views of the revelation of God. Because these views contradict one another, from their own revelations when compared side by side, reveals that one God does not exist or one God is a deciever.

The point I make is that the CCC is addressing the humanity and disposition of the Muslim not the ideologies of Islam’s diety. Our ideologies of God differ with Islam. Our humanity together recognize one God to be our creator./QUOTE

But the point of the matter does not change. The point is as you stated the faith in our creator, The one and only true God.

What does the One and Only Creator have to do with the differnt views of the One and Only creator the ONE GOD?

It seems here everyone is saying because they had a leader who misled them from the truth the leaders God is flalse. That is where I have a great problem.

Does Muhammed claim to be God? I think not! Does Muhammed claim to have a revelation from the ONE TRUE GOD the GOD of Abraham. Yes he does.

So do we accept his revelation? Of course we do not. He is not the first to try to fool us. And will not be the last, Read the scripture.

But the fact still remains as I have been saying. Does a false revelation from a false prophet make the false prophet’s God false. The same God as we pray to the God of Abraham. I think not!

That is the whole point I am trying to say and will continue to say.

So my friend if I say today that I believe in the Trinity the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit the maker of heaven and earth, And then I turn around and claim that I believe I am the new leader of the CC. Does that make the One God the True God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit a false God.

Of course not. It makes me a false prophet, but does not make my God False.

Back to the question at hand. How can a person who reject Christ in the Eucharist, Make Jesus Christ the true Son of God false? It makes the PERSON false. NOT Christ!

 

[rinnie]

Ok understood, are the demons included in this same belief “together with us”? when scripture reveals that the demons believe God is one also.

The Church CCC references Muslims (humans who are children of the creator) not Islam. Re-read the CCC.

Again what does this have to do with Muslims having a false God? The statement is made that muslims because they cannot see God in the Trinity have a false God.

And it was also made of the Jews.

I don’t think anyone would every disagree that the devil believes in God. For goodness sake who would know more.

The devil himself was a fallen angel.

 

[rinnie]

Ok understood, are the demons included in this same belief “together with us”? when scripture reveals that the demons believe God is one also.

The Church CCC references Muslims (humans who are children of the creator) not Islam. Re-read the CCC.

Again if I may. Of course they believe. But ADORE. Big fat difference.