Not the same God?

[illusion_buster]

Let’s take the relationship metaphor, which is actually more appropriate (and Biblical), rather than a culinary metaphor.

Imagine a couple that has a “bland” relationship, vs a couple that has a covenantal one.

Who do you think is going to be closer to each other?

True! … but their is still a valid marriage be it a ‘bland’ one.

 

[illusion_buster]

'zactly.

That is why we must all continue to work toward full unity in Christ, neither denying our commonalities nor papering over our differences.[/INDENT]

AMEN! As Christians we must do this in love. Unfortunately, ‘love’ is furtherest on some peoples minds when considering non-christians and especially Muslims in this present time. ‘LOVE’ is the infallible ingredient…without which NOTHING is correct.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I sew a TV production on ‘banged up abroad’ where a male westerner was taken hostage along with an egyptian woman in the middle east by Muslim radiclists. They were blind folded & roughed around but not really harmed. There was talk of a ransome. Over night things changed and they were reluctantly handed over to the taliban. After constant sessions of torture the woman was released while the man was retained. Several times he was made to believe he would be executed only to be thrown back to his ‘cell’. In stealth of night and at great rist to his own life and that of his family…one of his abductors released him knowing he was to be executed in the morning for real by a teliban leader. When asked why he was letting him go at such risk to himself, he replied…“because I believe we are brothers under the same God”…The prisoner made his escape and lived to tell about it.

What a tremendous story, thank you. It goes to show there are good people in the world.

Here’s the thing I was asking? Islam enslaves Muslims from hearing the gospel of Jesus, and from converting to Christianity.

A practicing Muslim will not publicly proclaim that they “adore” the same God of Christians. They can’t do this publicly or else Islam laws will persecute them. Now I believe there are good Muslims who would convert in heartbeat once they come to learn of God’s love through Jesus Christ. But Islam enslaves them.

Now if this abductor read the CCC and understands that the God of Abraham is the same God of Christians, which Muslims profess in the faith of Abraham, we all adore the one creator God together.

Yet you can never get a Muslim to profess in the same God of Christians, because they only profess the faith in the one God of Abraham’s faith, which had not recieved the revelation yet of Jesus who reveals the blessed Trinity.

 

[illusion_buster]

And at the risk of shooting myself in the foot, I’d share that it is hard for me personally to believe that Muslims may ever reconcile their own beliefs in the manner in which the Catholic Church holds out hope, but that essentially is the position. We hold out hope that they may one day see, know and come to accept the entire Truth.

There is a very good reason for the CC hope…

Phillipians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

though I agree… it may not be in the manner the CC hopes if it thinks all other religions will ‘convert’ to catholizism. More like that by Grace, Jesus true nature will be revealed to all unencumbered by any ‘structure’. A heart revelation so to speak.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

rinnie;8925800]I totally agree that they do not have the complete truth of God as the Trinity. I don’t believe anyone would deny that.

As far as the teaching of Muslims, I think we can all agree also, as Pope JPll teaches, there is very LITTLE on which we agree with. Simply because they are following the teaching of a false prophet. Which I believe we have all agreed on here all along.

The Pope teaches us that while they do not have the fullness of the truth of Christ, we can find more of a common bond in the One True God. Its has to become more of what we DO have in common then what we don’t to ever become the people we need to become.

I think that when JPll has made it more of what we do have in common,

Apart from the definition of the CCC. I agree with JPII, Christians have alot in common with Muslims beginning first with faith in the One God of Abraham, Heaven, Hell, Judgement, Angels, prophets, prayer, almsgiving, Jesus, Mary to name just a few. All these Muslim belief’s stem from and are revealed in both Judaism and Christianity. But Islam has twisted these revelations and does not allow the Muslim to learn of the Truth from Christians. Because if Muslims convert to Christianity, Islamic laws persecute them.

Much so that the early Catholic Church considered Islam a new Christian heresy.

But it should be noted what the CCC does not address, and that is the Muslim rejects the God of Christians because God has not revealed His son to them, because Islam “enslaves” them and does not allow them to hear or see the light of Jesus Christ. But they have an infant stage faith of God that begins with Abraham. And what Muslims today will reject is that this same God of Abraham is revealed in Jesus Christ. But the CCC does not address this aspect of Muslim.

Ecumenically the CC finds much common ground with the Muslims to communicate on issues of faith in God. Yet Islam will not allow them to hear the Word of God revealed in Jesus Christ. Communication and faith begins first with Muslim in the faith they profess in Abrahams faith in One God. Then If Islam allows the Muslim to investigate further and research truthfully how God reveals himself in the Son to redeem man back to God.

 

[mdisse]

Greetings~
Well, here I am in a mess again.
My husband is a Lutheran and he was deeply offended when I told him that Catholics have a different God than Lutherans have because the way I saw it, there was no way it ever could be the same one, the qualities are too disimilar. Protestants are too quick to say we make everything up.
It’s a bit strange because if our God *is the same *then either we are all going to hell or they are all going to hell. Better choose wisely. I knew I needed to find out for sure…
My husband said oh sure, go to CAF and ask the Catholics but I told him that the people on these forums are completely unbiased and have schooled me when I have been wrong and enlightened me about things when I needed to know the truth. So that’s why I posted here again
Thanks so much for reading this thread,
Jen

i think that as long as you believe in Jesus, youre fine no matter what denomination you are

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

There is a very good reason for the CC hope…

Phillipians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Isaiah 45:23
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

though I agree… it may not be in the manner the CC hopes if it thinks all other religions will ‘convert’ to catholizism. More like that by Grace, Jesus true nature will be revealed to all unencumbered by any ‘structure’. A heart revelation so to speak.

The Catholic Church is the messenger, God supplies the growth. “All things are possible with God”. If and when Islam opens it’s doors to the gospel of Jesus without persecuting its own Muslims, it is here when God moves in mysterious ways.

The Church never converted anyone. God is the one who changes hearts. The church did not convert Saul, Jesus saved Saul into Paul. Just as Jesus continues to save the many in every age, via baptism, when Jesus Christ is truly present in his sacraments.

 

[illusion_buster]

Dear Mickey,

The time is coming when Muslims will have their faith and will fight to keep it, whereas the nihilism of the West will be powerless to resist the robust religion of Islam. Inter-faith dialogue and multi-cultural activities will not be the panacea some optimists imagine that it will be. Islam is, like Christianity, a missionary religion and that should never be lost sight of in these ecumenical times in which are lot is cast.

Pax

This is the frightening reality:- Hyposisis… what if the worst imaginings occured and it was convert or die? Obviously, there would be mass martyrdom…but others might see that to convert to belief in the ‘One God’ as no bigy. A change of name from Father to Allah. Also 5 prayer times a day to the One God would probably be an improvement. These ‘converts’ would secretly know that the one God is a Trinity and that Jesus was His begotten son from whom proceeds the Holy Spirit. Life as a Christian need not change at all. Practice of Jesus’ teachings: Love God, Love they neighbour, etc… would not change. Even the last supper celebration (the breaking of bread & wine) could be continued as Christ asked in rememberance of Him. Would Christians choosing this path be damned? Would martyrdom be the only path to salvation?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I feel the point is being missed… The INTENTION of all these religions is to worship the One True God. None of them INDENDS to worship a false god. It is the understanding of that ‘True God’ that is in error. Here is a simili…

A man father’s 3 sons. Over time they grow up but one son shows signs of paranoia. Over time this develops into anti social behaviour and later aggression. He goes to a psych who tells him his problems exist because his father abused him sexually and that he has repressed the memory and it is coming out in antisocial behaviour. The son believes this and fearfully looks on his father as a tyrant and colours his true character to suit his condition. Not only that…he also believes anyone supporting the idea of his ’ father’ as a loving parent is also the enemy. He trully believes what the phyic has said about his father. The other sons KNOW that all his brother believes is FALSE but no matter how they try to convince him of his error…their brother believes in ANOTHER FATHER. But the TRUTH is that their father is THE SAME ENTITY. Both brothers & father feel frustrated with pity for the brother/son and pray that he will be able to GET WELL and perceive the TRUTH. The father still looks on his sons with love and does all he can to bring him to the truth. One brother becomes angry and shuns the ‘sick’ brother " I’ll never speak to him again until he recants his accusations". The third brother’s pity brings him to pray for his ‘lost’ brother WHOM HE LOVES.

Which of these brother’s are obeying Jesus command?

Well I don’t find Jesus making any command from your simili? The second brothers shuns the sick brother, the third brother’s pity brings him to pray for his lost brother.

Here is my analyzes; We don’t fight against flesh and blood but against evil powers and principalites Ephesians 6.

We as Catholics should view Muslims as lost brothers ensnared with these powers and principalites which enslave them from the light of Life in Jesus Christ. We don’t fight against Muslims, we battle against the powers and principalities which infect Muslims.

Muslims are surrounded by an (name removed by moderator)enetrable wall, which does not allow light in nor allow light to go out. Catholics are called to love our enemies. But our enemies are not flesh and blood, the wall that separates us are the powers and principalities “Islam” which does do not allow us to love them.

In summary all of humanity is created by God, and God desires that all men be saved. All have sinned, but the light of life came into the world. Without this light = Jesus how are we going to know that we were once in darkness or remain in darkness.

This scripture supports the CCC addressing all religions from John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.

 

[illusion_buster]

(CCC 841) “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Let us analyze this statement:

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator”
True.

“in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims”
False. The Creator is the Triune God. Muslims reject the Triune God.

.

Sorry but I disagree with your interpretation. The Creator at the time of creation was only knownb as One God. Abraham knew Him only as One God. Muslims know Him only as One God. Only Christians AFTER CHRIST became aware of the dimensions of God. That is all the Trinity is …an awareness of the FULL DIMENSIONS of God. This UNDERSTANDING has not been revealed to Muslims YET! An occurance of which WILL happen in the future. Phillipians 2:10

 

[ByzCathCantor]

FYI - Mickey has pulled himself out of this one.

We’re now at post #800

I’m waiting to see this one hit #1000

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Sorry but I disagree with your interpretation. The Creator at the time of creation was only knownb as One God. Abraham knew Him only as One God. Muslims know Him only as One God. Only Christians AFTER CHRIST became aware of the dimensions of God. That is all the Trinity is …an awareness of the FULL DIMENSIONS of God. This UNDERSTANDING has not been revealed to Muslims YET! An occurance of which WILL happen in the future. Phillipians 2:10

illusion,

The Muslims haven’t had anything revealed to them. The Qu’ran is Muhammad’s word, not God’s. They have access to the same revelation that has been given to Christians. They know what we believe. They reject it.

 

[Simka]

I feel the point is being missed… The INTENTION of all these religions is to worship the One True God. None of them INDENDS to worship a false god. It is the understanding of that ‘True God’ that is in error.

The naive or misinformed “intent” of an individual is not relevant to such a discussion. If, on his deathbed, one discovers he has been deceived for all his life into paying homage to, and even worshipping the one he believed to be “the one true god” but at the last discovered it was in reality Satan to whom he had committed his life … he cannot claim to have actually worshipped the one true god. He cannot justify himself by claiming a more noble intent.

No matter how vile his deception, he had actually worshipped Satan.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The naive or misinformed “intent” of an individual is not relevant to such a discussion. If, on his deathbed, one discovers he has been deceived for all his life into paying homage to, and even worshipping the one he believed to be “the one true god” but at the last discovered it was in reality Satan to whom he had committed his life … he cannot claim to have actually worshipped the one true god. He cannot justify himself by claiming a more noble intent.

No matter how vile his deception, he had actually worshipped Satan.

Yes, yet we leave open the possibility that this person, having realized their error “at the last”, may be able to share in the promise of salvation. In that regard, in Catholic thinking, it is relevant.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

illusion,

The Muslims haven’t had anything revealed to them. The Qu’ran is Muhammad’s word, not God’s. They have access to the same revelation that has been given to Christians. They know what we believe. They reject it.

Muslims do not have free access to the revelations of God in Jesus Christ. Muslims by Islam law cannot convert to Christianity less they be punished by death. Muslims do not learn the Christian teachings from a true apostle of Jesus Christ. They learn a heretical Christianity in the form of Arianism from Muslims.

They reject a heretical Muslim interpretation of Jesus and the New Testament. Technically they do not reject Jesus because Islam does not allow them the freedom to recieve Jesus in order to reject Jesus. The best Islam does for the Muslim is proclaim Jesus to be a good prophet of God.

Pray for them…

Muslims profess the faith of Abraham’s faith in One God. Abraham did not yet recieve the revelation of Jesus who reveals the blessed Trinity in the fullness of time. The faith of Abraham in one God has been revealed, which the Muslims profess faith in. Muslim faith in God is in it’s infant stage from Abraham’s, which is the One God creator, which we all “adore” together.

Yet Islam teaches the Muslims to reject any revelation of Jesus divinity and the blessed Trinity.

 

[PRmerger]

True! … but their is still a valid marriage be it a ‘bland’ one.

A valid marriage, perhaps. But one that is unconsummated.

Would you like to be in a marriage like that? Especially when it’s entirely possible for you to enjoy the marital embrace if you only made it covenantal?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The Muslims haven’t had anything revealed to them. The Qu’ran is Muhammad’s word, not God’s. They have access to the same revelation that has been given to Christians. They know what we believe. They reject it.

Not following - how can one reject what one does not know? If they haven’t had anything revealed to them, how can they know what we (Christians in general) believe?

 

[illusion_buster]

illusion,

They know what we believe. They reject it.

I wonder if they do?? As understanding is the letter of the day, I looked up what Muslims are supposed to believe. Apart from many contrary answers among which some statments sounded straight out of Jesus’ mouth… I was shocked to see that one article stated belief that the “paraclete” promised to the apostles was not the Holy Spirit as interpreted, but the prophet Muhammad. Argument being: that the word used for paraclete professed a human male and didn’t refer to the Holy Spirit at all as the Holy Spirit was already with & on the earth. This article was saying that Jesus proclaimed Muhammad as the paraclete which He was sending to further fulfill His messege to the end days. My point is… How on earth is such a religion EVER to be evangelized??

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Not following - how can one reject what one does not know? If they haven’t had anything revealed to them, how can they know what we (Christians in general) believe?

They haven’t had anything revealed to them in the sense that the Qu’ran is not a revelation. This does not mean that the information contained in the Qu’ran on what Christians believe is not factual information that Muhammad learned during his lifetime. Muslims know that the Scriptures proclaim that Jesus is God. They know that the Scriptures proclaim that God is one Being in three Persons.

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a ‘Trinity’—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust. (Surah 4:171)

Islam is not a secluded, primitive pagan religion that is not aware of what the gospel states. Their religion is an active enemy of it.

 

[illusion_buster]

illusion,

The Muslims haven’t had anything revealed to them. .

But they HAVE Iggy. Arabs believed in a multitude of gods before the REVELATION: there is only ONE God. You can’t even say they are atheist: REVELATION: there IS a God. REVELATION: the virgin birth of Jesus by Mary. The REVELATIONS go on & on. Just because the MOST IMPORTANT REVELATION has not yet been revealed to them does not mean they have had NO revelation…I personally believe that that moment is ‘already written’ (so to speak) by the One God and will come about not a moment sooner.