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illusion_buster
Guest
According to the CC, one can be saved on his deathbed even if he DID worship satan. In this case, we’ll leave that determination, I think, to Jesus at the last Judgement.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right and today as we see in Egypt Islamic Jihad seems to be succeeding through finance of controling the country. Same stuggle is occuring in Syria and has already happened in Iran. So the order of the dau becomes total submission to Sharia Law, and they do not even toterate muslims who cannot read Arabic. After the Christians are gone then those Good Muslims everyone talk about? There next. So there won’t be any Womens Liberation coming to Egypt anytime soon.
Anyone who doesn’t know and wants to know? Follow the News and EWTN in fact they did an excellent show on the MB and Islamic Jihad this past weekend. Not a mystery to us, its been a heresy in the Church since it arrived with bits and pieces of Jewish and Christian religion combined with a war Generals hate verse’s.
The CCC on this particular topic appears in index like this,
…The Church and non-Christians…
Did you notice how this stated the Church and Non Christians:shrug:
839
"Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”;328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840
And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842
The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . . .331
843
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844
In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845
To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
Now when you read 841 you should also notice who professed what. Muslims professed to be Abrahams followers…and we said YIPPEE:thumbsup: And it kinda works like this to keep open the door, just incase there might actually be a “few” normal people around, who want to talk instead of calling each other names and promoting bloodshed and violence.
Ok now as I spoke about earlier in this thread, watch how the CCC proceeds from here and this peaceful attempt at ecumenical dialogue with those capable…
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Now what comes directly after those ecumenical verse’s? …
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Now I do not know what they are teaching you in YOUR parish. But I’m pretty sure its along these lines.
As far as all others as Gabe said, we pray for them, we don’t have them commited to hell. We do not know who is in hell. I know the Koran specifically states all muslims go directly to hell.
And thats why we pray for them.
The strident clamour of Antichrist doesn’t help. We understand Islam. Nor as I stated is ANY statement being released by the EO in this regard. They seek peace also. And dialogue with those capable. Do not be mislead in others confusion.
Peace,
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846
How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848
"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
Now I do not know what they are teaching you in YOUR parish. But I’m pretty sure its along these lines.
As far as all others as Gabe said, we pray for them, we don’t have them commited to hell. We do not know who is in hell. I know the Koran specifically states all muslims go directly to hell.
And thats why we pray for them.The strident clamour of Antichrist doesn’t help. We understand Islam. Nor as I stated is ANY statement being released by the EO in this regard. They seek peace also. And dialogue with those capable. Do not be mislead in others confusion.
Peace,
S
Simka
Guest
Of course; all it would require is that he repent and accept Christ as his Savior. Every person of every belief system may do so (even Muslims, as in fact some are doing). In the meantime, no one would be arguing that the former object of this man’s worship was the same as the Christian god simply because of his intent.
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Portrait
Guest
Dear illusion buster,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for the above response.
It is my belief, dear friend, that the vast majority of the faithful would not be prepared to live covert Christian lives under the heal of Islam. Moreover, they would feel a necessity laid upon them to evangelise and to seek to convert Muslims to the one true religion of Jesus Christ, which would surely make any peaceful co-existence very problematic. As for those who buckled under fear of persecution and conformed to the dominant religion by being nominal converts only, we must remember that we serve a merciful God and He would surely take everything into account in the case of each man and allow for mitigating factors.
There is, I think, a very serious clash of civilizations and cultures when living side by side with Muslims; not working on Friday’s would not be the greatest problem. Even Christians of different denominations are not wholly comfortable with one another, as history has shown. Soup kitchens were used in Ireland to tempt Catholics to convert to Protestantism. In Southern Sudan, Catholics convert to the Muslim faith in order to secure employment. Muslims who convert to Christianity must flee to avoid death. Its appears that each faith wants to create its own society in which it can practice its religion without undue interference from others. No, Christians could not with good conscience outwardly conform to the religion of Islam, for the sake of living a peaceful life. Whilst with Muslims we adore the same God and share much in common, they do reject the Divinity of our Blessed Saviour and Catholics, to be true to Christ and themselves, would have to correct this heretical belief and expound unto Muslims the true Catholic doctine concerning the Person of Christ.
Finally, Bishop Mazzolari of the diocese of Rumbeck in Southern Sudan has lived an Islamic nightmare for over twenty years amidst a civil war that claimed two to three million lives. His diocese is as big as Italy with thirty priests caring for 350,000 Catholics. His Cathederal is a zinc-roofed shed so that it cannot be burnt down! He tells what Muslims did to an elderly missionary whom they savagely beat with a bottle until the poor chap died. Moreover, they ‘crucified’ a slave Christian boy and put nails into his hands and feet and poured acid on his wounds, the poor lad is now a hunchback.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
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Simka
Guest
Curious, indeed. Do you have a citation … ???
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rinnie
Guest
I agree, and it will happen. Look at what has happnened with the Jews. They are beginnng to come back to the Church in record numbers. And the numbers are all comming in a positive way.
And what you are saying about Muslims not being able to investigate is what I have been saying all along, mostly on another post. They can’t help it they were not in a position to learn and pick and choose for themself. And they cannot be held responsible for what they do not know. Our Church teaches that also.
But they will be led by the Holy Spirit to Christ in his Church when God feels they are ready to receive the truth.
But CCC 847 and 848 I believe address this quite well. While I agree it does not address Muslims personally I believe it still includes them.
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rinnie
Guest
Why do you continue to redefine him in Muslim terms. Why do you have to continue to insist that they do not see the Christian God. We know that.
But what does that have to do with them praying to the Christian God, the same of us, the only difference they don’t see it.
And who claims we agree with thier religion. We don’t.
It seems we continue to go back to the same thing over and over again. Why we are different from the Muslims. WE KNOW WHY. We could go on for years on our differences.
And would common sense not kick in that if they did worship the Fullness of God they would be Christians.
You seem to thing you have to continue to stress that they do not have the Fullness of the ONE TRUE GOD. I get it, I always have. Never doubted that for one second.
But the thread says ONE GOD. And our Church teaches there are 3 religions who profess the ONE GOD the creator of heaven and earth. Its Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Because they cannot see that God can be revealed in the 3 persons and still be ONE GOD has nothing to do with us not having the same ONE GOD.
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rinnie
Guest
Are you KIDDING ME! If they even get caught with a Holy Bible they will be killed. Tell me where are they to get the bible? Just pick it up at the store.
If they had the truth revealed to them by the Holy Spirit, had the fullness of the truth taught by the CC, then had the choice to reject or choose, then I would say you have a good point. But do you not watch TV?
B
ByzCathCantor
Guest
No one is suggesting that Islam is a pagan religion. This entire thread debates whether or not we profess that same God.
You quote the Qur’an well, yet it does not seem the same to say that what a Muslim believes as a tenet of faith from the Qur’an as it relates to Christianity is the same as what one might believe if they were properly exposed to the Gospel in an uninterpreted form. We see what happens all the time when people of other faiths convert to Christianity, most specifically Catholicism. Their witness and experiences are all very similar. When exposed to the Truth and allowed to understand the Truth on their own, using the God given gifts of reason, dignity and free will, they end up accepting the Truth.
IMO, this is why the Catholic Church has instructed us as it has in regards to Muslims, and people of no faith for that matter. Natural Law is fundamental to our system of belief. We must accept that some people may not have been exposed to the Truth, or may have been exposed to belief systems that reject the Truth in whole or in part (or adopt some variant of it), yet through our witness, we also hope and pray they may use their God given gifts to find the Truth.
Did our Lord reject the Gentiles? Sinners? Faithless? St. Paul openly opposed the Church until his own conversion, then becoming the greatest of missionaries and one our greatest teachers.
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rinnie
Guest
Thank-you so much for saying this. I tried to approach this with Mickey earlier and he could not see what I was trying to tell him. But it brings me a chance to open it up once again.
St Paul tells us, in my words here
Don’t get to big for your panties.Look what happened to the Jews. God said let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see and bend their backs for ever.
Israel failed to obtain what is sought, the elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened. We Christians know this scripture quite well don’t we.
But we are also taught Did GOd reject his people. BY NO MEANS!! ST Paul says I myslef am a Isralite a decendant of Abraham a member of the tribe of Benjamin.
God has not rejected his people he foreknew.
Something to think about. They rejected God by he never reject them did he?
God tells us when he does return to this earth, they will have their eyes opened
Note then the kindness and the severity of God severity toward those who HAVE fallen. But God’s kindness to you PROVIDED YOU continue in HIS KINDNESS, otherwise you TOO will be cut off. That is God talking to US. The gentiles, Christians whaever word you want to use,
God said many Jews will have thier eyes open and fall to their knee’s in great sorrow for what they have done to Christ. But not to de-rail, and I think this would be a great discussion on another thread soon.
But I only want to express one thing, What ST PAUL told us, Think about it guys, The Jews are the Chosen People, they had the One true Faith, and they do have the One true God, but we must learn from them. we must be careful, We could end up the same way.
Because we have the truth in Christ, and the Church does not mean God will not knock us down a few pegs either.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Gary Taylor as always summed it up very well with CCC.
Our Early Church Fathers suffered tortures and Martyrdom following the cross of our dear Lord with Joy. Because Islam locks out the Church from evangelizing its Muslim members. Maybe God will call those Muslims from within Islam’s walls to the cross of Martyrdom. After all Jesus builds His Church upon the prophets and the blood of Saints and Martyrs.
As we watch Emperors and Walls tumble in the Middle East, may be a prelude to God opening the way for the gospel?
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
We can only pray, but doesn’t recent history show that (i) these changes favor Islam, both theologically and politically and (ii) the Churches in the Middle East are coming under increasing attack?
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rinnie
Guest
Gary Taylor as always summed it up very well with CCC.
Our Early Church Fathers suffered tortures and Martyrdom following the cross of our dear Lord with Joy. Because Islam locks out the Church from evangelizing its Muslim members. Maybe God will call those Muslims from within Islam’s walls to the cross of Martyrdom. After all Jesus builds His Church upon the prophets and the blood of Saints and Martyrs.
As we watch Emperors and Walls tumble in the Middle East, may be a prelude to God opening the way for the gospel?
As the Pope teaches us there is always HOPE, And as long as we have God and we have hope we can obtain anything.
We can never understand they mystery of God and how he works in the lives of us and others. But we can pray for his Grace to reveal things to us.
But as we are also taught as long as we have LOVE we have GOD. God is indeed Love, He is many things also and among all quite a mystery
For now we take the grace he has given us, we use that grace through prayer and through our works of showing kindness, understanding, but above all giving Praise to our Dear Lord who has given it all to us.
Speaking for myself I was like Mickey for such a long time, I could not see it. How could anyone deny Christ but still honor God. And I prayed for years and it took years, let me tell you
to finally see it. So if I can do it. ANYONE CAN!
The best advice my Dad EVER gave me before he died was this. Never pray for anything but Grace. If you have Grace you will get through anything.
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rinnie
Guest
Ah, but didn’t Jesus dying on the cross look like we lost the battle also? Then 3 days later
Look how long and how much grace it took for us to see why Jesus had to die? Because we could not quit our sin. Sad but true.
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Mickey
Guest
Dear rinnie,
I had removed myself from this thread…so I would appreciate it if you would stop bringing up my name using ad hominem tactics. Remember the parable of the publican and the pharisee? You should be very careful when you say “I was like Mickey for such a long time.”
It is not possible to honor God while rejecting Christ. Christ is God.
Now please leave me out of the conversation.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Excellent post ByzCathCantor thank you.
The Catholic church members in the communion of Saints and Martyrs come from many different walks of life in different ages of time including those who persecuted her, as you stated St.Paul’s example.
If we were to micro manage our present circumstances world wide, time has not changed our Church’s circumstances from Church’s of St.Pauls time.
In every age the Catholic Church has come under persecution in one form of another.
Muslims themselves are under bondage of Islam’s teachings. Just as the Jews were once enslaved by the Egyptians, and Gentiles enslaved to sin and false gods.
Just as it took the hand of God to deliver the Jews from bondage, and the Son of God Himself to free the captives from sin and death. Jesus states to the Church; “If you have faith of a musterseed, you will say to this mountain “move” and it will move”.
I think once we grow to learn and see from the eyes of the faith, how Muslims are truly in bondage, and need our help to set their own freewill be free to accept the Gospel or not.
But this battle is not of the flesh as some on both sides pretend it to be between Christians and Muslims; The Church begins to battle at Mass which is the prayer of faith that tumbles down world rulers, powers and principalities when the Church is clothed with the armor of God.
The evil spiritual powers and principalities know this Catholic faith of the Church from ages past that defeated them who opposed Jesus teachings and tumbled. We have been given the revelation of the outcome, that is why these worldy powers and principalities have enslaved Muslims under its protection with the threat and fear of death. This death is the last enemy that will be placed under the feet of Jesus.
We ponder today for the salvation of Muslims, what the prophets and angels pondered about our salvation who investigated the grace that was to be ours… 1Peter 1:10-12
We know that it will be the “little” Woman and her seed who will ultimately deliver the deadly blow to the head of these powers and principalities.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
If history repeats itself here; Ultimately the lay people will seek freedom that their worldly powers refuse to give them. That is what I believe we are seeing today. Worldly powers struggling to maintain their powers by force.
Matthew 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent are taking it by force.*
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Portrait
Guest
Dear Simka,
Cordial greetings and a very good day. Thankyou for your response.
What Muslims think, dear friend, respecting the God of Christianity is inconsequential, since what concerns us is what Christians think and, for me personally, what the Catholic Church thinks. My Church informs me that we should look with esteem upon Muslims for “They adore one God, living and enduring, merciful and all powerful, Maker of earth and Speaker to men. They strive to submit wholeheartedly to His inscrutable decrees…” (Nostra Aetate).
If it be said by way of reply that the Muslim God, though one, is not the Christian God, because he is not the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, then as my fellow Catholic rinnie remarked in a previous post, “Because they cannot see that God can be revealed in the 3 persons and still be ONE GOD, this has nothing to do with us not having the same ONE GOD”. Thus the two entities may be “mutually exclusive” as far as Islam is concerned, but they are not so from the Christian standpoint and that is what counts. If Muslims cannot be charitable enough to acknowledge that we worship the same God, that is no reason for Christians to be likewise uncharitable.
God bless.
Warmest good wishes,
Portrait
Pax
C
Contarini
Guest
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