Not the same God?

[Contarini]

Muslims say they do not worship the Christian god.

What Muslims?

Name a respected Muslim scholar who takes this view.

The Muslims I’ve talked to take exactly the opposite view. I recognize that some Muslims may, in the heat of inter-religious polemic, agree with your position that Christians and Muslims worship different deities (as in the case in Malaysia where Muslims tried to stop Christians from calling God “Allah”). But I am unaware of any major Muslim scholar/theologian who takes such a position.

Muslims speak of Christians “associating partners with God” (their misunderstanding of our doctrine of the Trinity). This assumes that Christians worship the true God, obviously.

Edwin

 

[Simka]

But what does that have to do with them praying to the Christian God, the same of us, the only difference they don’t see it.
… the thread says ONE GOD. And our Church teaches there are 3 religions who profess the ONE GOD the creator of heaven and earth. Its Christians, Jews and Muslims.
Because they cannot see that God can be revealed in the 3 persons and still be ONE GOD has nothing to do with us not having the same ONE GOD.

rinnie, my point is this. While I agree that Christians, Jews and Muslims all claim to worship the “One True God” – it is Christians who define the Christian god, and it is Muslims who define the Muslim god.

Muslims know very well the god they worship. It is they, not we, who are the final authority on Islamic faith and belief. And the nature and character of their god, as they define their One True God, makes their god incompatible with the “One True God” that Christians claim to worship.

If you tell me your brother is five feet tall and 30 years old, and I know that my brother is six feet tall and 50 years old, these mutually exclusive characteristics are adequate proof that your brother and my brother are not the same person.

The distinction is not merely that “they don’t see” the Truth; it is that they believe an alternative, contradictory ‘Truth’ that denies our Truth. It is not merely that they have an incomplete, uninformed point of view. They have a contrary and contradicting belief. The only conclusion, therefore, is that one of these claims is false, the god of one of these belief systems – if he actually exists at all outside the imagination of his adherents – is a deceitful imposter.

The mere fact that each of us claims “our god is the God of Abraham, the Creator of Heaven and Earth” does not render both statements Truth.

 

[PRmerger]

It is not possible to honor God while rejecting Christ. Christ is God.

Of course it is possible.

Just like it’s possible to honor Jesus while rejecting the Eucharist. The Eucharist is Jesus.

By this paradigm being proposed when one rejects the Eucharist he is rejecting Christ.

And yet no one here is proposing that Baptists worship a different Christ than Catholics. It’s the same Jesus, even though Baptists do not have the fullness of Truth.

 

[Simka]

In response to my comment that “Muslims say they do not worship the Christian god.” the question was raised …

What Muslims? … I recognize that some Muslims may, in the heat of inter-religious polemic, agree with your position that Christians and Muslims worship different deities (as in the case in Malaysia where Muslims tried to stop Christians from calling God “Allah”).

… and as in the case in Nigeria and the rest of Islamist Africa, and throughout the Arab world, and even in Europe, where Muslim communities have created “no go” zones to all non-Muslims, and there is no perceived need to “get along peaceably” with any sort of religious tolerance.

I am unaware of any major Muslim scholar/theologian who takes such a position.

Maybe not publicly, and maybe not in your community … but perhaps if I were to cite the names of several Imams with whom I was personally acquainted … ??? And then of course there are the 2500 - 3500 people who used to frequent the Mosques in which they taught … and none of them had any interest in soft-pedaling their point of view to make a favorable impression with neighboring Christians, because we were in such a tiny minority. They simply told it as they saw it, as they believed it to be. As I have stated before, in most of the Muslim world, the suggestion that Christians and Muslims worship the same god is considered laughable nonsense … by both groups.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Simka;8930303]rinnie, my point is this. While I agree that Christians, Jews and Muslims all claim to worship the “One True God” – it is Christians who define the Christian god, and it is Muslims who define the Muslim god.

Muslims know very well the god they worship. It is they, not we, who are the final authority on Islamic faith and belief. And the nature and character of their god, as they define their One True God, makes their god incompatible with the “One True God” that Christians claim to worship.

I don’t think anyone is arguing the status quo between Muslims denying Jesus divinity and the blessed Trinity that God revealed to our Christian faith. The fundamental revelations of God is different between Muslims and Christians.

Scripture reveals that satan can come as an angel of light, and maybe one did to Muhammad? But even demons believe in the one God who fear and tremble.

I would be interested in learning how you can prove the Muslims God is different from Abrahams God? When Abrahams revelation of one God had not yet reached the fullness of time to be given the revelation of the blessed Trinity. We know that Abrahams God is the same God Christians believe in revealed through Jesus Christ.

Muslims are not taught Christianity from True Christians. Islam teaches Muslims its own form of false Christianity, which denies the revelations of the Trinity and Jesus divinity.

This is the veil that needs to be lifted. But Islam enslaves its members from learning true Christianity or converting to Christianity.

Simply stated Muslims do not have the Holy Spirit to teach them and reveal to them the true God they seek in the one God of Abrahams faith. Because it is Jesus who promises to give us the Holy Spirit. Islam believes their holy spirit Jesus sent was a holy person in Muhammad.

Because Muslims do not have the Holy Spirit yet, as did Abraham, Moses, John the baptist, are we to deny them their salvation when they profess to believe in the one God of Abraham?

I agree with you in a sense, IMHO that once Muslims are taken down that path of truth from Abrahams faith in God that leads to Jesus Christ crucified in the Word incarnate, they will come to realize that they do not believe in the One True God of Abrahams faith. But Islam becomes the chasm to this revelation.

So far all we got is Muslims profess in the one God of Abraham’s faith and deny the revelations of Jesus Christ divinity and crucifxion, but believe Jesus was born of a virgin.

Islam has found a way to decieve Muslims or deny Muslims what God has revealed in the fullness of time by taking biblical revelations and changing them and when Islam cannot change the revelation of Jesus Christ, they out right deny them. Consciences can decieve but the Holy Spirit does not deceive.

The CC has faced and defeated the beast which denied God altogether in communism. What she faces now are those who heard about Jesus but do not know Jesus.

 

[illusion_buster]

No, Christians could not with good conscience outwardly conform to the religion of Islam, for the sake of living a peaceful life.
God bless.

Warmest good wishes,
Portrait

Pax

Always good to hear your wisdom Portrait. Let’s all pray that the Lord’s will be done in this area. Sometimes I feel some Christians have very little faith that God is in control.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Let’s all pray that the Lord’s will be done in this area

Those Copts and Christians in the middle-east are not lacking faith. In fact I would argue they are living on exactly that. God alone sustains them regardless of day to day trials.

Its difficult to watch the persecution of Christianity. Very disturbing. I give the Copts and Christians in all other areas of the M-East all my respect. My prayers are with them.

Truth is most countries have suffered severe persecution. The US and North America has been very fortunate. We cannot continue this path we are on though. If there has ever been a time to wake up and get your head into Christ…its Now.

Whatever diabolic forces exist throughout the world, they certainly seem climatic now.

Its not just Islam, though its an obvious issue with its radical Islamic Jihad which spreads like a virus to all aspects of the poor muslims, the Good muslims, women, and its without doubt disturbing. This mixture of secular thinking in the US and Russia, never mind China and all other Dictatorships has also created a much deeper issue world-wide than just the middle-east. Israel is under severe threat. Basically there is a bounty on their head.

We throw finance at the Middle East and its constantly filtered to the MB. We should be throwing Bibles and supporting the Christian communities which we have “totally” ignored. I hope we learned something from all this nonsense.

Yet I see a glimmer of hope also this year, a change of heart in Christianity bought on by the obvious turmoil. Is it too little too late? This year is definately high stakes.

Peace

 

[Simka]

Scripture reveals that satan can come as an angel of light, and maybe one did to Muhammad? But even demons believe in the one God who fear and tremble…

Believe, yes … but do not worship. Their allegiance and devotion are given elsewhere.

I would be interested in learning how you can prove the Muslims God is different from Abrahams God

Mohammad sought to enlist Jews and Christians in his jihad by declaring that Islam believed in the same “God of Abraham”. But Islam teaches a different God than the Bible presents.

Mohammad’s god is unapproachable. He does not enter into relationship with mankind (and has no interest in doing so). In contrast, the greatest defining characteristic of the Christian God is his limitless love for every person, and his desire for a personal relationship with each and every one.

Muslims are taught that Allah is a god of whimsy. Without forethought and without reason he decrees that some will be happy and others not; that some will have good fortune and others not. The faithfulness or obedience of followers is irrelevant to his decrees. Whatever happens in one’s life, it is the will of Allah.

(So if I become angry with my neighbor and attack and kill him, his widow must understand that it was Allah’s will that I attack, and it was Allah’s will that her husband die.) Such behavior is anathema to the Christian God.

They read that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but no one has any assurance that Allah will be merciful or forgiving to him personally … except for the one who receives the blessings of the afterlife guaranteed through martyrdom.

The Christian God is a strong advocate of monogamy. Allah permitted and encouraged Mohammad to take as many wives as he might desire, even from among his own blood relations.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t think anyone is arguing the status quo between Muslims denying Jesus divinity and the blessed Trinity that God revealed to our Christian faith. The fundamental revelations of God is different between Muslims and Christians.

Scripture reveals that satan can come as an angel of light, and maybe one did to Muhammad? But even demons believe in the one God who fear and tremble.

I would be interested in learning how you can prove the Muslims God is different from Abrahams God? When Abrahams revelation of one God had not yet reached the fullness of time to be given the revelation of the blessed Trinity. We know that Abrahams God is the same God Christians believe in revealed through Jesus Christ.

Muslims are not taught Christianity from True Christians. Islam teaches Muslims its own form of false Christianity, which denies the revelations of the Trinity and Jesus divinity.

This is the veil that needs to be lifted. But Islam enslaves its members from learning true Christianity or converting to Christianity.

Simply stated Muslims do not have the Holy Spirit to teach them and reveal to them the true God they seek in the one God of Abrahams faith. Because it is Jesus who promises to give us the Holy Spirit. Islam believes their holy spirit Jesus sent was a holy person in Muhammad.

Because Muslims do not have the Holy Spirit yet, as did Abraham, Moses, John the baptist, are we to deny them their salvation when they profess to believe in the one God of Abraham?

I agree with you in a sense, IMHO that once Muslims are taken down that path of truth from Abrahams faith in God that leads to Jesus Christ crucified in the Word incarnate, they will come to realize that they do not believe in the One True God of Abrahams faith. But Islam becomes the chasm to this revelation.

So far all we got is Muslims profess in the one God of Abraham’s faith and deny the revelations of Jesus Christ divinity and crucifxion, but believe Jesus was born of a virgin.

Islam has found a way to decieve Muslims or deny Muslims what God has revealed in the fullness of time by taking biblical revelations and changing them and when Islam cannot change the revelation of Jesus Christ, they out right deny them. Consciences can decieve but the Holy Spirit does not deceive.

The CC has faced and defeated the beast which denied God altogether in communism. What she faces now are those who heard about Jesus but do not know Jesus.

Right, a supreme test of Faith is what it comes down to. The path is exactly how the Copts are dealing with it. Same happened with the Catholic’s and Christians in Russia from 1917 forward.

 

[Simka]

I previously stated that …

… no one would be arguing that the former object of this man’s worship was the same as the Christian god simply because of his intent.

… and in response it was suggested that C.S. Lewis did, in fact, argue for this point.

It is, indeed, one of Lewis’ most controversial positions (if the reference is to the Embeth episode of The Last Battle) … and it stands in direct contrast to the official position of his church as presented in the “39 Articles”, to wit …

“Article XIII: Of Works before Justification.
Works done before the grace of Christ, and the Inspiration of his Spirit, are not pleasant to God, forasmuch as they spring not of faith in Jesus Christ, neither do they make men meet to receive grace: yea, rather, for that they are not done as God hath willed and commanded them to be done, we doubt not but they have the nature of sin.”

I apologize for the Elizabethan English, but that’s how it was written. A paraphrase might simply say, “The right thing done for the wrong reason is still sin”.

 

[PRmerger]

I apologize for the Elizabethan English, but that’s how it was written. A paraphrase might simply say, “The right thing done for the wrong reason is still sin”.

This is true.

However, you’ll have to provide evidence that Muslims are adoring the One True God for the wrong reason.

Indeed, how is it possible that you can discern what a Muslim’s reason is for adoring the One True God?

 

[Simka]

This is true. However, you’ll have to provide evidence that Muslims are adoring the One True God for the wrong reason.

On the contrary, my contention is that Muslims adore another being they falsely identify as the One True God. That devoted adoration and worship, however sincere, directed toward someone or something else, is still sin in the eyes of the One True God (notwithstanding C.S. Lewis).

As I have recently substantiated, their defining characteristics of their god preclude the possibility that he and the Christian God are one and the same identity.

 

[Contarini]

Maybe not publicly, and maybe not in your community … but perhaps if I were to cite the names of several Imams with whom I was personally acquainted … ???

I would be interested in hearing their names, which tradition of fiqh they adhere to, where they studied, and how widely they are respected in the (presumably Sunni) Islamic community.

If the ulama as a whole really deny that what we call “God the Father” is the true God, then that would greatly surprise me. I’m certainly willing to be surprised, but I’d like to see
solid evidence. Everything I’ve seen in Muslim sources up to now–including very polemical ones–seems to indicate that they think that we commit idolatry by “associating partners” with the true God (Allah/God the Father).

That they think the Trinity is polytheistic is not, of course, in dispute (though there’s room for real dispute as to whether they understand what we mean by the Trinity when they say this).

Edwin

 

[rinnie]

I don’t think anyone is arguing the status quo between Muslims denying Jesus divinity and the blessed Trinity that God revealed to our Christian faith. The fundamental revelations of God is different between Muslims and Christians.

Scripture reveals that satan can come as an angel of light, and maybe one did to Muhammad? But even demons believe in the one God who fear and tremble.

I would be interested in learning how you can prove the Muslims God is different from Abrahams God? When Abrahams revelation of one God had not yet reached the fullness of time to be given the revelation of the blessed Trinity. We know that Abrahams God is the same God Christians believe in revealed through Jesus Christ.

Muslims are not taught Christianity from True Christians. Islam teaches Muslims its own form of false Christianity, which denies the revelations of the Trinity and Jesus divinity.

This is the veil that needs to be lifted. But Islam enslaves its members from learning true Christianity or converting to Christianity.

Simply stated Muslims do not have the Holy Spirit to teach them and reveal to them the true God they seek in the one God of Abrahams faith. Because it is Jesus who promises to give us the Holy Spirit. Islam believes their holy spirit Jesus sent was a holy person in Muhammad.

Because Muslims do not have the Holy Spirit yet, as did Abraham, Moses, John the baptist, are we to deny them their salvation when they profess to believe in the one God of Abraham?

I agree with you in a sense, IMHO that once Muslims are taken down that path of truth from Abrahams faith in God that leads to Jesus Christ crucified in the Word incarnate, they will come to realize that they do not believe in the One True God of Abrahams faith. But Islam becomes the chasm to this revelation.

So far all we got is Muslims profess in the one God of Abraham’s faith and deny the revelations of Jesus Christ divinity and crucifxion, but believe Jesus was born of a virgin.

Islam has found a way to decieve Muslims or deny Muslims what God has revealed in the fullness of time by taking biblical revelations and changing them and when Islam cannot change the revelation of Jesus Christ, they out right deny them. Consciences can decieve but the Holy Spirit does not deceive.

The CC has faced and defeated the beast which denied God altogether in communism. What she faces now are those who heard about Jesus but do not know Jesus.

Are you kidding me, the whole time I have been here is to say that they have the Same God of us the God of Abraham.

Where did I ever say they did not have the God of Abraham the same God as us.

I said and Please let me be clear. what I have been saying from the moment I started this conversation.

Just because they cannot see the full revelation of Christ in the Trinity, does not mean that do not have the true God the One God the God of Abraham.

Please show me where I led you to this misunderstanding and I will surely correct it.

 

[rinnie]

Dear rinnie,

I had removed myself from this thread…so I would appreciate it if you would stop bringing up my name using ad hominem tactics. Remember the parable of the publican and the pharisee? You should be very careful when you say “I was like Mickey for such a long time.”

It is not possible to honor God while rejecting Christ. Christ is God.

Now please leave me out of the conversation.

I never meant any disrespect and if you feel I did, or was trying to lead you back into the converstion that was never my intention.

Please accept my apology and I will not bring up your name again.

I agree with you and accept your last response that we willl never see eye to eye on this.

God Bless.

 

[PRmerger]

… and in response it was suggested that C.S. Lewis did, in fact, argue for this point.

It is, indeed, one of Lewis’ most controversial positions (if the reference is to the Embeth episode of The Last Battle) … and it stands in direct contrast to the official position of his church as presented in the “39 Articles”, to wit …

Just a note of correction: it is not “Embeth” but rather “Emeth”. This is significant because we can presume that Lewis’ choice of the name was calculated, in that “emeth” in Hebrew means: truth or firmness or convicted.

Thus, Lewis is indeed proffering that Emeth, while not a professed follower of Aslan, was indeed a seeker of Truth.

I apologize for the Elizabethan English, but that’s how it was written. A paraphrase might simply say, “The right thing done for the wrong reason is still sin”.

Could you please explain, then, what it is that you believe the Muslims are doing that’s “the right thing” but for “the wrong reason”?

 

[PRmerger]

As I have recently substantiated, their defining characteristics of their god preclude the possibility that he and the Christian God are one and the same identity.

Well, yes, some of their “defining characteristics” of their god are wrong. But to the degree that they get it right*, we give them a

*God is all merciful. God is Creator. God is the Shaper of Beauty. God is the Forgiving. God is the Inspirer of Faith. God is the Pure One…etc etc etc!

 

[GaryTaylor]

their defining characteristics of their god preclude the possibility that he and the Christian God are one and the same identity.

“Characteristics” lead to your YOUR objective truth. Not theirs or the Jews.

This is a conclusion you’ve drawn through what you believe to be the objective truth. However their are a Billion muslims who see the Objective truth “different”.

Let alone the fact the the Jews deny that your God is their God. They do not believe in the Trinity, nor that God became man. While they may acknowledge Jesus was real, so does Islam, in fact Islam believes he was a prophet the Orthodox Jews do not believe this.

To Judaism the Bible states that the Messiah will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world—on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9). But the messiah will not be God.

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

However, we continue to arrive at Christianity, Islam and the Jews and the “attributes” of God which we have already concluded “vary”. Pretty sure we can agree on this?

While your truth is very real to you, their truth is very real to them. So we still must conclude there is only One God. Course less you believe their are other Divine Gods which you would like to inject into this equation? Or are we back to Antichrist or Lucifer came to power? And “if” so does your church state this? Is this your own conclusion? Could you provide the newest document? Just asking.

The Holy Spirit whom Abraham encountered, then Moses encountered, who spoke through the prophets, whom Jesus called “Father” who then through the Archangel Gabriel gave the words of the Holy Qur’an to the Prophet Muhammed …is the same God. This is the claim of all the Abrahamic faith traditions. Its really that simple. As to who believes exactly what? Not of issue nor which validates one or the other.

All three draw conclusions based on their belief, as to their “own” Objective Truth.

If I place three Chevys in a parking lot, call one Islam, one Christian and one Judaism. All three are still Chevys, though they may be different colors, have different interiors, run different, in fact one might be junk and another a vehicle which runs for 150 Thousand miles, no problem. But they are all still CHEVYS.

So which one is the REAL CHEVY? Yours because you say so? Or are they all Chevys?

Now as to who is teaching what? Well there may well be some far fetched theory, wouldn’t surprize me. However, we have this in Christinity also? No? Tell me you do not think those playing with Rattlesnakes to see if they are guided by the HS are nuts?

Don’t think we were a little off cue with slavery or was that for “God and Country”? So now we have it all together?

And the arguement I would believe is more like this.

Follow what I’m saying? By your own paradigm your faith is TRUE. Understandable. But do you not see how theirs is also True to them? Thus when you use a Christian belief to weigh Islamic belief, would they not seem like a false teaching to you?

What do you suppose someone of NO-FAITH of Religion would have to say about all of this?

So whats the solution?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

I would only note that you statement is true indeed, if each of those passages are taken literally. I doubt that you are suggesting that we as Catholics do not believe that the messianic prophecies were indeed fulfilled.

I do appreciate your broader argument. This has been an interesting thread, and I still do not understand why so many believe that we as Catholics are not called to charitable understanding and respect of other faiths. This portends to life experience in the secular world, as well.

 

[Simka]

Just a note of correction: it is not “Embeth” but rather “Emeth”. This is significant because we can presume that Lewis’ choice of the name was calculated, in that “emeth” in Hebrew means: truth or firmness or convicted.

You are correct, of course … my mistake.

Could you please explain, then, what it is that you believe the Muslims are doing that’s “the right thing” but for “the wrong reason”?

Many are giving lifelong devotion, dedication, worship, obedience, homage, loyalty … many good things … in the service of an imposter.