Not the same God?

[Gabriel_of_12]

Mickey;8943091]We were all given free will to either accept the true God…the Triune God…or reject Him.

Muslims have consciously, intentionally, and by their own free will…chosen to reject the Triune God. Therefore they are not worshipping the God of Abraham.

Really Mickey? Truthfully historically it is known that Muhammad gained converts from the point of the sword. Since when do Muslims are given the freedom of freewill to learn the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and freely convert without threat of death. And you call this free will?

If and when this threat of death to Muslims from Islam is removed if they convert to Catholicism, the harvest is going to be tremendous that the laborers will again will few to harvest the crop for the Kingdom of heaven.

Praying for the Orthodox, Catholic and Eastern Catholics who remain steadfast in faith while residing in Islamic territories. God has not left you orphans. And for those peaceful Muslims who live in fear, trusting in God, will one day God reveal Himself to you in a powerful way, through Jesus Christ.

 

[Simka]

.
The Muslims cannot go back on this revelation that they profess in the God of Abraham’s one God Creator.

All three Abraham, Muslim, Christian are holding to Abrahams faith in One God Creator. Nothing else from here … Just that God is one Creator.

I maintain you cannot overlook what they mean by what they say. The words alone are not enough.

So let me offer another analogy. Let us suppose that you and I live on the same street, separated by just one neighbor between us. If asked by someone else, each of us may make the simple statement that each of us "trusts our mutual neighbor, and finds him reliable."

By your statement, you may mean that you find him completely trustworthy … that you have high regard for his integrity.

On the other hand, what I may mean when I say I find him ‘reliable’ is that he is very ‘predictable’ … that I can ‘rely’ on him to steal from me, to rob me blind if I leave him any opportunity. I am not going back on my initial statement, but I mean something very different, even directly opposite to what you mean, even though we use the same words.

When a Muslim says he holds to the faith of Abraham, or words to that effect, without explaining himself further, you are being deceived if you fail to perceive his real meaning.
The words do not mean what you think they mean. And words themselves, in isolation and devoid of meaning, are useless.

 

[rinnie]

No, what I am saying is that whoever actually gave Mohammad his false revelation is false. And if Mohammad’s revelation is false, then the god that he subsequently defined by his false revelation is equally false. This is not the One True God, but MOHAMMAD’S RE-DEFINITION of God … Mohammad’s god … whom Muslims mistakenly identify as the One True God.

According to their own teaching, Muslims worship the god that was REVEALED TO MOHAMMAD. Mohammad’s revelation and his teaching define precisely what Muslims actually worship. If Mohammad did not receive a revelation of the One True God, then what Muslims are worshipping is not actually the one True God. They worship MOHAMMAD’S REVELATION … whoever or whatever that may be.

Who ever said that the God Of Abraham ever gave Mohammad his revelation??

What in the world does that have to do with anything?

The question is and has always been is the God of Abraham a false God. The answer is NO.

According to the teaching of the CCC it states that the God that they profess the faith of Abraham is indeed the same God we adore.

So where is your authority to say this is a false teaching, and they pray to a false god, that the God of Abraham is indeed a false god.

Tell me how do you get your information.

You continue to say because they follow a false prophet and false teaching that they follow a false god.

You are in direct conflict with the teachings of the CC.

THe CC has the authority to teach in the name of Christ, And they are teaching that we adore the same God.

Again where and what is your authority? Does your Church even back you in this? You claim you Church has no teaching. So what makes you feel you have the power of the Holy Spirit to trump the teachings of the CC?

 

[rinnie]

I maintain you cannot overlook what they mean by what they say. The words alone are not enough.

So let me offer another analogy. Let us suppose that you and I live on the same street, separated by just one neighbor between us. If asked by someone else, each of us may make the simple statement that each of us "trusts our mutual neighbor, and finds him reliable."

By your statement, you may mean that you find him completely trustworthy … that you have high regard for his integrity.

On the other hand, what I may mean when I say I find him ‘reliable’ is that he is very ‘predictable’ … that I can ‘rely’ on him to steal from me, to rob me blind if I leave him any opportunity. I am not going back on my initial statement, but I mean something very different, even directly opposite to what you mean, even though we use the same words.

When a Muslim says he holds to the faith of Abraham, or words to that effect, without explaining himself further, you are being deceived if you fail to perceive his real meaning.
The words do not mean what you think they mean. And words themselves, in isolation and devoid of meaning, are useless.

No it is time for you to tell me, how can you claim that all Muslims are liars and they do not adore the One true God as they claim.

You do not have the power or the wisdom to Judge them and say they are liars. Do you know thier heart.

You continue to say You know, How do you know. Again you comtinue to be in direct conflict with scripture time after time after time.

The scripture says only GOD can judge a mans heart and know what he feels and what he believes and who he prays to. But you continue to claim that the Church is a liar and the Muslims are liars. Maybe not in those exact words but you are saying the Church is wrong, You are saying the Muslims are not telling the truth.

Who are you to bear false judgement against them and the Church? The commandment of God says you cannot do that.

 

[Mickey]

Thanks “Sheriff” Eric

Agreed Muslims are rejecting the God of Abraham revealed, fulfilled in Christianity.

There is no other God of Abraham.

Before Jesus, The chosen people of God worshipped the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob in one Creator God.

The Triune God is throughout the OT.

The Muslims professed faith begins by resorting back to Abrahams faith in One God creator before the Incarnation manifested.

Abraham’s faith in the one God is the Triune God.

You appear to be saying that Abraham’s faith in One God Creator “revealed also Jesus Incarnate in the blessed Trinity”?

I am saying that Abraham’s God is the Triune God.

We don’t recieve this full revelation until Jesus is born and reveals the Blessed Trinity to the Church.

The Trinity is seen throughout the OT. Abraham served Christ as an Angel in the Book of Genesis…the East sees this as the Holy Trinity. Furthermore, Christ has been revealed as the Word made flesh in the NT…the Muslims reject Him.

And it is not until 400 years later after the resurrection that the Church identifies this revelation as “Trinity”.

HUH!!!
Just because the word “Trinity” was not used…does not mean the Church did not know the Triune God until 400 years after the Resurrection.

The first thing Islam picked to be their God, is the same God from Abrahams faith in One God creator, to which the Muslims profess in this one Creator God.

Wrong. They may profess that they worship the God of Abraham…but they do not worship the Triune God…so they do not worship the God of Abraham.

Thus far I conclude; Muslims deny the revelations of Jesus Christ divinity.

Hence they do not worship the One true God…the God of Abraham.

Muslims deny the covenant revelations of Abrahams God to be the God of Isaac and Jacob revealed and fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Now you are understanding.

The only revelation “Light” man or any non catholic religion recieves, begins that One God created all of creation, which the Muslims profess from Abrahams faith.

Christ is the Creator. Muslims reject the Triune God…therefore they do not worship the God of Abraham.

 

[rinnie]

The CCC is addressing all religions, Muslims in particular who profess Abrahams faith in one God creator, all of these are God’s children from creation. All of these are included in the plan of Salvation.

The salvation part the CCC is not addressing that specifically, only in regards to Muslims faith of Abraham professed and God the creator.

Yes, but how is the Creator aknowledged by Muslims? “in Abrahams faith” not Muhammed’s faith. The salvation plan is to bring the “light of life” to the Muslim. But Islam refuses to release the enslavement of Muslims to hear the gospel of Jesus. The Light of Jesus will expose Islam and bring to light its salvation attributes it gives to God in service first by acknowledging God as the creator from Abrahams faith.

The CCC states the Muslims do profess the faith of Abraham in one God. From this faith of Abraham together with us adore God.

The CCC does not state the Muslims profess the faith of Muhammed god.

All man are included in the plan of salvation, even though from different religions, it is the commission of the church to bring the light of salvation to their images and shadows of God the creator whom they seek. Yet Islam enslaves its people from allowing the light to come or recieve the light of salvation.

Very simple don’t use the CCC to state that it teaches the same God as Islam. The CCC teaches of the Same God from the Muslim who professess the faith of Abraham in One God.

No I am not trying to reveal anyones disposition of faith in God. Only what the CCC has stated in regards to the faith professed by Muslims in Abrahams faith.

I

The CCC addressess the Muslim who professes the faith of Abraham in one God.

The CCC does not address the faith of Muhammed’s god from Islam.

The CCC is addressing peoples faith in our creator, not the idelogies they traditionally are holding too.

The Muslim professes the faith in Abraham’s one creator in God.

The Church never acknowledges a Muslims faith in Muhammed’s god from Islam, only the one God whom Muslim profess to be the faith of Abraham’s.

No the CCC is not addressing All Relgions. It says The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. Where does that address the CC’s relationship with all Religions?

I never said that Muslims who deny and do not acknowledge the creator are included in salvation. Please show me where I ever stated that.

I said that Muslims who acknowledge the Creator adore with us the same God. The God of Abraham.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

OK - so I’m a child born into a Muslim family. I am raised as a practicing, faithful Muslim. I grow up to become a faithful Muslim adult. All I know is how to be a Muslim.

At some point am I taught that I reject the God of Abraham as part of my faith? Am I ever told enough, in my Islamic formation, to be able to understand that perhaps Mohammed’s revelations may be inconsistent with the God of Abraham who has more fully revealed Himself to Mankind before Mohammed was even born? Or do I simply learn to worship Allah as he is understood to exist based on Islamic teaching?

While I may be able to agree with many of the points raised by those who argue that Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham, I’m having a lot of trouble seeing how we can say that all Muslims somehow possess full knowledge of the Truth beyond Islamic teaching, and actively reject the God of Abraham on their own accord and of their own free will despite that knowledge. I just don’t see how that claim logically can be made.

 

[Mickey]

Really Mickey?

Yes. Really.

Since when do Muslims are given the freedom of freewill

All mankind has been given freewill.

If and when this threat of death to Muslims from Islam is removed if they convert to Catholicism, the harvest is going to be tremendous that the laborers will again will few to harvest the crop for the Kingdom of heaven.

Wrong. You do not see them converting in droves in those places where they are not threatened. But we continue to pray that Christ will reveal the true God to them…the Triune God…the God of Abraham.

 

[Mickey]

While I may be able to agree with many of the points raised by those who argue that Muslims do not worship the God of Abraham, I’m having a lot of trouble seeing how we can say that all Muslims somehow possess full knowledge of the Truth beyond Islamic teaching, and actively reject the God of Abraham on their own accord and of their own free will despite that knowledge. I just don’t see how that claim logically can be made.

I am guessing that each case would have different circumstances. Is it possible that a Muslim child might be shielded from any and all Christian teaching their entire lives and brainwashed by extremist Imams? Yes. But the fact remains that they were raised in an environment which denies Christ and the Holy Spirit…hence they are not worshipping the God of Abraham. If the message of the Gospel reaches them…and they accept Christ…they will be worshipping the God of Abraham. If the message never reaches them…we leave them to the mercy of Christ.

 

[rinnie]

CCC Although in ways know to himself God can lead those who though no fault of thier own are ignorant to the Gospel. to the faith without which it is impossible to please him the Chuurch still has the obligationa dnalso the sacred right to evangelize all men.

Now how can it be said that if you do not accept God in the light of the fullness of the truth, rather it be the Trinity, the Eucharist or any other way that they cannot worship the One true God?

Who here can claim to be God, and say God cannot do this. The Church knows that God knows their conscience and will judge them on that conscience and their actions,no matter what they may seem to look like to us.

Who can say that a Muslim does not pray to the One true God because they are ignorant to the Gospel. Again this is another of the many things that are in direct conflict with the teachings with the CC.

We as Catholic’s are indeed held to our actions because we have the truth revealed to us through the Holy Spirit though the Catholic Church.

BUt to say that those who do not have the truth revealed to them, and do not understand the fullness of the truth from the Gospel and teachings of the Church are worshipping a false God are putting themself in the position to teach a false teaching.

We have a merciful amd loving God and he will pass Judgement on us, not others who looking on and feel they have that power, They do not.

The Pope and the Church teaches us, ONLY GOD know who are true to him and who are not.

But we continue to have people here who feel that can tell us the conscience of others and know their minds when they are on their knees and pray to their God.

The God of Abraham is not a false God, and you cannot stand in judgement and say that they are praying to a false God unless you can say you know the minds of those people. It is wrong and false to do this. May God have mercy on you.

 

[Simka]

Who ever said that the God Of Abraham ever gave Mohammad his revelation??

Mohammad !!!

What in the world does that have to do with anything?

Everything! This is what defines Muslim faith and belief and practice, from beginning to end.

The question … has always been is the God of Abraham a false God.
The answer is NO.

Of course the answer to that question is “No”. I have never understood that to be an issue under discussion. If that has been your bone of contention, you have missed the point of most of this thread.

The question I have been addressing is whether the Muslim god, as defined by Mohammad’s revelation, is the same as the Christian God … the God of Abraham. And the simple answer is this: Christians worship the Biblical God of Abraham; Muslims worship MOHAMMAD’S DISTORTION of the God of Abraham … a distortion so significant as to unrecognizable by Biblical standards, except for the confusing matter that Mohammad used a name for his god which Christians also use, but with very different meaning. They are not the same God … that is, despite what they say, Muslims do not, in reality, worship the God of Abraham.

So where is your authority to say this is a false teaching, and they pray to a false god?

Muslims say they pray to Mohammad’s god … the one he defined as a result of his revelation. This is not my statement; I’m just quoting what Muslims say about their god.

Tell me how do you get your information.

I lived in a Muslim community in Africa for many years, one of a very few families, a tiny Christian minority. I encountered Muslims in everyday life for years.

You continue to say because they follow a false prophet and false teaching that they
follow a false god.

The evidence seems to me indisputable. They would say it is we who follow a false god, but the mutual understanding is that one of us is following a false god.

You are in direct conflict with the teachings of the CC.

I am confident you are not referring to any extension of the CC in Muslim Africa or Arabia. So far as I can tell, it offers no such teaching there; and it would not be taken seriously by either Muslims or Christians if it did.

Again where and what is your authority?

Again, my real life experiences over many years on the inside of a real Muslim community, listening to real Muslim Imams preach their actual doctrine.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So were back to another Christian heresy? After 1022 posts? Has to make you wonder how far we came in 1400 years, no? I’m pretty sure thats what the church claimed back then.

 

[rinnie]

Mohammad !!!

What in the world does that have to do with anything?

It is you who continue to miss the whole point!

Of course they are not going to see the One True God in the Trinity if it was not revealed to them.

Where was it ever said it they cannot see the One True God in the Trinity they would ever be able to see that we have the One True God, the same One true God the One God, and hold the faith of Abraham.

It is you who continue to say that if they cannot see him in the fullness of the faith, it is a different God, not Me, nor my Church.

Let me say this to you one more time. I don’t care what THEY say, I care what the TRUTH is, Here is the truth according to my Church and my Pope.

The plan of Salvation also INCLUDES those WHO ACKNOWLDEGE the Creator, in the first place amongst whom Are the Muslims, THESE profess to hold the faith of Abraham and together with US adore the one merciful God mankings judge on the last day.

The question was never asked do they agree with the Church that we adore the One True God? IF so where? And where did we every go by what they teach?

If a Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham they have the same God as us.

What is so hard to understand here. Where did the Pope ever say if they do not see the One true God in the Trinity, the One True God is false. Common sense has to kick in here sooner or later to show you that if they Adore the ONE TRUE GOD the same as us, they do Adore the TRINITY, they do pray to God in the Trinity, because if they did not there would not be ONE TRUE GOD now would there?

How in the world can we ADORE THE ONE TRUE GOD togeher with them and leave out The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit? IT is quite impossible isn’t it. ANd if they profess the faith of Abraham as the CCC states, they are doing it also, because it is IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO. They just do not SEE It!

Why in the world can such a easy teaching be so hard to see.

 

[rinnie]

So were back to another Christian heresy? After 1022 posts? Has to make you wonder how far we came in 1400 years, no? I’m pretty sure thats what the church claimed back then.

Well we have done the best we can. We have taught the True Word that is given to us by our Church.

There is nothing else we can do now but pray! For all who are ignorant to scripture, and wait for the day we can all become one in Christ in his Church.

God Bless!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Simka;8943553]I maintain you cannot overlook what they mean by what they say. The words alone are not enough.

So let me offer another analogy. Let us suppose that you and I live on the same street, separated by just one neighbor between us. If asked by someone else, each of us may make the simple statement that each of us "trusts our mutual neighbor, and finds him reliable."

From your analogy there is only one true fact that reveals itself to the whole equation. And that is that we are separated by a neighbor existing between us.

When it comes to the asking of the neighbor personality? Apart from the neighbor known by both existing, may take on different personality view points of our neighbors relationship between the two of us.

Which results on how each one becomes personally involved with the shared known neighbor. Because our neighbor may spend holidays with you, and only greets me on daily mornings defines the intimate relationship and understanding of our neighbor in common.

The net product to this evaluation reveals that One God the creator exists in Abrahams faith, the Muslims faith professed in Abrahams faith in God the creator and Christians faith in One God creator.

Our personal revelations of this one God creator shared, developes different relationships and revelations between the shared One God Creator in Abrahams faith of One God Creator. It is from here were we take on different attributes of our shared (neighbor) One God Creator in revelations and personal relationships which includes different definitions defining God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

rinnie;8943749]No the CCC is not addressing All Relgions. It says The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. Where does that address the CC’s relationship with all Religions?

CCC 842-845 (842 you know the one just after the Muslim clause of 841 states "The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place common origin and end of the human race;

All nations form but one community.This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extends to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city…

I never said that Muslims who deny and do not acknowledge the creator are included in salvation. Please show me where I ever stated that.

I am not sure what your addressing, something may be taken out of context?

I said that Muslims who acknowledge the Creator adore with us the same God. The God of Abraham.

CCC 841 “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator…(Muslims) these profess to “hold” the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day”.

CCC 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, **for the God who is unknown yet near **since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, **the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel **and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life”.

Only one truth is found in Islam, and that is the Muslim who hold to the faith of Abraham in one God creator, which prepares them to recieve the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[rinnie]

CCC 842-845 (842 you know the one just after the Muslim clause of 841 states "The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place common origin and end of the human race;

All nations form but one community.This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extends to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city…

I am not sure what your addressing, something may be taken out of context?

CCC 841 “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator…(Muslims) these profess to “hold” the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day”.

CCC 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, **for the God who is unknown yet near **since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, **the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions **as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by himj who enlightens all men that they may at length have life”.

Only one truth is found in Islam, and that is the Muslim who hold to the faith of Abraham in one God creator, which prepares them to recieve the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hi Gabriel, but what I was saying is where that is different we still do not say we worship the same God of all religions. Many do not worship the One True God. That is what I thought you were trying to say. Could be my bad, if so my apology. Yes we recognize all truth and accept it, but we do not say we agree that all religions that have some truth worship the same God as us. For all I know there are only three of us that profess the One True God. If I am wrong, I have missed that teaching somewhere.

And boy did you put it in the PERFECT words in you last paragraph.:extrahappy:

I cannot see how anyone can agree that we have ONE GOD, but then deny others who agree with us on that, simply because they cannot see that ONE GOD in the fulllness of revelation. It just makes no sense to me.

Its like saying because you call me your Aunt, and you Mother calls me her sister, I cannot possibly be the Aunt because I am the Sister.

I guess it happens sometimes.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Its like saying because you call me your Aunt, and you Mother calls me her sister, I cannot possibly be the Aunt because I am the Sister.

rinnie - I think I know what you were trying to say, but to me, it’s more like a child calling the father by first name. The child may be using the father’s correct given name, but yet the child does not express correctly that he is speaking to the father, as the child has not called him father, as is proper.

 

[rinnie]

Simka, maybe you can go to your Church and see if they can help you understand the teachings of the CC.

Sometimes others can bring it to you in a different light, and then later on you can come back, and read what everyone here has said, and it will make better sense to you.

But for now, God Bless you my friend, and hopefully we can come together on this someday. Hey stranger things have happened

 

[Mickey]

to me, it’s more like a child calling the father by first name. The child may be using the father’s correct given name, but yet the child does not express correctly that he is speaking to the father, as the child has not called him father, as is proper.

But the child still knows it is his father.

The child in your analogy knowingly and consciously may call his daddy by his first name, John…but he is also conscious of the fact that this is his daddy.