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Mickey
Guest
I also find it really hard to believe that those holy saints and martyrs who were tortured and killed by Muslims…went to their holy martyrdom thinking that the Muslims worship the same God as the Christians. :nope:
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ByzCathCantor
Guest
So long as Mommy told child that John was, in fact, Daddy!But the child still knows it is his father.
The child in your analogy knowingly and consciously may call his daddy by his first name, John…but he is also conscious of the fact that this is his daddy.
Peace, brother!
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Mickey
Guest
And so when the Muslims are told that the God of Abraham is Triune…or that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God…and they reject it…they have adopted another god. Eh?
Peace.
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PRmerger
Guest
No more than when Baptists are told that the Eucharist is Jesus…and they reject it…they have adopted another Christ.And so when the Muslims are told that the God of Abraham is Triune…or that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God…and they reject it…they have adopted another god. Eh?
Peace.
:nope:
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Simka
Guest
rinnie, I have never, in any of my posts on this issue up until now, ever addressed the issue of Muslim rejection of the Trinity. You are confusing me with others. That being said, there are a few things you perhaps need to have explained about the Muslim faith.
Islam originated with Mohammad, about 600 years after Christ. Its origin and foundation is Mohammad’s claim that the angel Gabriel appeared to him on several occasions to reveal to him specific, direct commands from the God of Abraham. Included in this revelation from the God of Abraham is the literal, word-for-word dictation of the Qur’an, the Muslim scriptures. Also included are numerous refutations and corrections of Biblical doctrines.
Mohammad lived in the late 6th and early 7th century. The Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity was NOT unknown to him. It had been around for 600 years by the time he claimed to have had his revelations. The Trinity had most certainly been revealed to him; he knew it well. He made a conscious decision to reject and renounce it. So this denial and rejection of Christian doctrine is fundamental to Muslim doctrine.
This is a gross misrepresentation of what I have been saying. Review my posts! I have never said anything about their “not seeing him in the fulness of faith.”
However, what I DO continue to say about Muslim doctrine, on the authority of the teaching of Mohammad and the Muslim teachers who today preach Mohammad’s faith, is that we Christians readily overlook what Muslims really mean by the words they use. Having lived among them for so long, I learned first-hand what they meant. I received instruction in the Muslim faith from Muslim teachers. And when they say that they worship the God of Abraham, they do not mean the same thing we do, when we use the same words. By their own doctrinal confessions, what they really mean is, they worship the RE-WORKED, REVAMPED, REVISED definition of the God of Abraham as that definition was uniquely revealed to Mohammad 600 years after Christ. This is the god they worship, and no other.
I must tell you plainly rinnie, WHAT THEY SAY is the only reliable source in determining the truth of what Muslims actually believe.
How can you say that WHAT THEY SAY THEY BELIEVE is immaterial in determining the truth of what they really believe? WHO IS the final authority on the truth of what Muslims believe, if not Muslims themselves?
Wait a minute! You just said that you don’t care what they say. If your mind is already made up, why does their profession matter?
But you see, when you allow them to speak for themselves … when you ask a Muslim for more detail about this “faith of Abraham” that he claims to profess, what you learn is that they hold to the “faith of Abraham” ACCORDING TO MOHAMMAD’S REVEALED REVISION AND UPDATE of that faith. So despite your claims to the contrary, the evidence from their own mouths is that THEY DO NOT HOLD THE “FAITH OF ABRAHAM” according to the meaning Christians give to those words.
So … we hold the faith of Abraham revealed in the Bible; they hold the faith of Abraham as it has been REVISED AND CORRECTED BY MOHAMMAD. Have you ever made a direct comparison? They are radically different faiths. Study the Bible and determine what you consider to be the “Faith of Abraham.” Get (name removed by moderator)ut from your church as to what is the Faith of Abraham. Then learn about the Muslim version of the “Faith of Abraham” from Muslim sources. Note the contrasts. You will be astounded. And you will then clearly see that they are not the same faith.
Also quite significantly, Muslims know what our Biblical “Faith of Abraham” is. They know it very well … and they reject and denounce it because in their view, our Faith of Abraham is UNTRUE. It is inconsistent with their faith in the God of Abraham that was defined by Mohammad in his revelation. Mohammad’s god is the one they worship, not ours.
The confusion and complications arise only because Mohammad chose to give his new, revised god the old Biblical name “the God of Abraham”. Had he used some other updated name to match his updated god, we would not be having this discussion. There would be no conflict.
Actually, I don’t find it hard to see.
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Mickey
Guest
Very good point, Simka. :tiphat:
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Simka
Guest
Many thanx for your encouragement and support, Mickey. I look forward to engaging with you again, sometime soon.
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Mickey
Guest
Likewise.
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PRmerger
Guest
And in denying this they are wrong. :sad_yes:
Yet when they say that their God has the characteristics of the God that we worship, they are indeed worshiping the same God that we do.
Asma al-Husna
The Qur’an on the Divine Names
Mevlâna Jalâluddîn Rumi on the Divine Names
Allah The Greatest Name
Ar-Rahman 1 The All-Merciful
Ar-Rahim 2 The All-Beneficient
Al-Malik 3 The Absolute Ruler
Al-Quddus 4 The Pure One
As-Salam 5 The Source of Peace
Al-Mu’min 6 The Inspirer of Faith
Al-Muhaymin 7 The Guardian
Al-’Aziz 8 The Victorious
Al-Jabbar 9 The Compeller
Al-Mutakabbir 10 The Greatest
Al-Khaliq 11 The Creator
Al-Bari’ 12 The Maker of Order
Al-Musawwir 13 The Shaper of Beauty
Al-Ghaffar 14 The Forgiving
Al-Qahhar 15 The Subduer
Al-Wahhab 16 The Giver of All
Ar-Razzaq 17 The Sustainer
Al-Fattah 18 The Opener
Al-’Alim 19 The Knower of All
Al-Qabid 20 The Constrictor
Al-Basit 21 The Reliever
Al-Khafid 22 The Abaser
Ar-Rafi’ 23 The Exalter
Al-Mu’izz 24 The Bestower of Honors
Al-Mudhill 25 The Humiliator
As-Sami 26 The Hearer of All
Al-Basir 27 The Seer of All
Al-Hakam 28 The Judge
Al-’Adl 29 The Just
Al-Latif 30 The Subtle One
Al-Khabir 31 The All-Aware
Al-Halim 32 The Forebearing
Al-’Azim 33 The Magnificent
Al-Ghafur 34 The Forgiver and Hider of Faults
Ash-Shakur 35 The Rewarder of Thankfulness
Al-’Ali 36 The Highest
Al-Kabir 37 The Greatest
Al-Hafiz 38 The Preserver
Al-Muqit 39 The Nourisher
Al-Hasib 40 The Accounter
Al-Jalil 41 The Mighty
Al-Karim 42 The Generous
Ar-Raqib 43 The Watchful One
Al-Mujib 44 The Responder to Prayer
Al-Wasi’ 45 The All-Comprehending
Al-Hakim 46 The Perfectly Wise
Al-Wadud 47 The Loving One
Al-Majíd 48 The Majestic One
Al-Ba’ith 49 The Resurrector
Ash-Shahid 50 The Witness
Al-Haqq 51 The Truth
Al-Wakil 52 The Trustee
Al-Qawi 53 The Possessor of All Strength
Al-Matin 54 The Forceful One
Al-Wáli 55 The Governor
Al-Hamid 56 The Praised One
Al-Muhsi 57 The Appraiser
Al-Mubdi 58 The Originator
Al-Mu’id 59 The Restorer
Al-Muhyi 60 The Giver of Life
Al-Mumit 61 The Taker of Life
Al-Hayy 62 The Ever Living One
Al-Qayyum 63 The Self-Existing One
Al-Wajid 64 The Finder
Al-Májid 65 The Glorious
Al-Wahid 66 The Only One
Al-Ahad 67 The One
As-Samad 68 The Satisfier of All Needs
Al-Qadir 69 The All Powerful
Al-Muqtadir 70 The Creator of All Power
Al-Muqaddim 71 The Expediter
Al-Mu’akhkhir 72 The Delayer
Al-Awwal 73 The First
Al-Akhir 74 The Last
Az-Zahir 75 The Manifest One
Al-Batin 76 The Hidden One
Al-Walí 77 The Protecting Friend
Al-Muta’ali 78 The Supreme One
Al-Barr 79 The Doer of Good
At-Tawwib 80 The Guide to Repentance
Al-Muntaqim 81 The Avenger
Al-Afu 82 The Forgiver
Ar-Ra’uf 83 The Clement
Malik al-Mulk 84 The Owner of All
Dhul-Jalali
Wal-Ikram 85 The Lord of Majesty and Bounty
Al-Muqsit 86 The Equitable One
Al-Jami 87 The Gatherer
Al-Ghani 88 The Rich One
Al-Mughni 89 The Enricher
Al-Mani’ 90 The Preventer of Harm
Ad-Darr 91 The Creator of The Harmful
An-Nafi 92 The Creator of Good
An-Nur 93 The Light
Al-Hadi 94 The Guide
Al-Badi 95 The Originator
Al-Baqi 96 The Everlasting One
Al-Warith 97 The Inheritor of All
Ar-Rashid 98 The Righteous Teacher
As-Sabur 99 The Patient One
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Simka
Guest
Well, I wonder. To reach that conclusion, is it good enough that they share some common characteristics, despite the fact that they are radical opposites in other areas?
One of the posts from Gabriel of 12 carried a list of contrasts. He mentioned, for example, that the Muslim god teaches, “Kill your enemies”. This has been an underlying strategy since the foundation of Islam in the early 600’s.
600 years earlier, the Christian God said “Love your enemies.”
Is it the same God saying both things?
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, yes. Why wouldn’t it be good enough?
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Simka
Guest
Typically, things that have some similarities and some differences are not regarded as identical.Well, yes. Why wouldn’t it be good enough?
My neighbor has two dogs. They have many common characteristics, but they differ in a few key areas. One is a German Shepherd (about 40 kg), one is a Yorkshire Terrier (about 5 kg). No one - even one who knows nothing about dogs - would suspect that they are the same breed, let alone ever confuse one for the other.
It turns out that they are better compared by their differences than by their similarities.
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PRmerger
Guest
Right.
If the Church said that Muslims were correct about their God who commands killing of the infidels, but that *our *God doesn’t command this, then it would indeed be odd.
However, the CC does not proclaim this.
Only that the shadows of truth which they proclaim ought to be given a
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PRmerger
Guest
That’s exactly where the argument lies, Simka!
You wish to compare the differences.
The Church, in her wisdom, has chosen to compare the similarities.
Which do you think has the better vantage point for evangelization?
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Simka
Guest
It’s not that “I wish” to compare the differences. It’s simply that if one wishes to make a comparison of two things to determine whether they are “the same”, identifying and comparing their differences will give you a much more accurate assessment than merely listing what they share in common. The later, in isolation, will lead you to inaccurate assessments.That’s exactly where the argument lies, Simka!
You wish to compare the differences.
The Church, in her wisdom, has chosen to compare the similarities.
Which do you think has the better vantage point for evangelization?
Ah, yes … but that was not the original question, was it?
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PRmerger
Guest
You can’t be serious.
This is page 70.
Surely you are aware that on a forum such as the CAFs that the OP is usually addressed by page 3 and the rest of the ensuing dialogue is tributaries and tangents and other often more interesting subjects.
NO THREAD ever, at page 70, is on the “original question.” :whacky:
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Simka
Guest
By all means, let’s acknowledge the areas of common ground and identify what similarities exist, as part of the overall comparison. Capitalizing on what we share in common is a good thing. But it seems fallacious to find a few of those commonalities, then to conclude on that basis alone that “we worship the same God.”Only that the shadows of truth which they proclaim ought to be given a
And on the topic of evangelization, my experience is that if you were to enter a Muslim community with that overriding proclamation, you would not be taken seriously in this or in anything else you then have to say. You would lose a great deal of credibility. People will realize how little you know about their faith, and they will stop listening to you. Making such a claim would be a very poor starting point for evangelization of Muslims.
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Simka
Guest
Sorry … I meant the original question of our recent dialogue, which was asked in around Post #1040.
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Mickey
Guest
It is impossible to mix the unmixable! Because, if you mix the pure thing with a dirty and poisonous one it will become dirty and poisonous as well, but the dirty thing will never become pure. And the poisonous thing will never become nonpoisonous.
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PRmerger
Guest
This is a curious paradigm, given that the Incarnation.
Was it not the Incarnation that “mixed” the Pure Christ with the dirty and poisonous humanity?
By this reasoning Christ, the Pure One, became dirty and poisonous!
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