Not your "normal" Traditional Catholic

[Dauphin]

But it doesn’t raise the ‘humbled himself’ aspect - that’s one of the most striking things of the more modern prayer, the emphasis on the mystery of the Incarnation.

The text is actually exactly the same from both Missals. “vouchsafed” is just another way of saying “humbled himself”. Since the Mass is always in Latin, the translation really isn’t that important in the 1962 Missal.

 

[Graing]

I think you better go back and read the posts of the two you mentioned earlier. They are not a good example of posters who “attack” traditionalists. Unless by “attack” you mean their opinion differs.

Ok BSHoop96, lemme go back and read the posts…

Originally Posted by ethelzguy
If only some of our traditionalist bretheren had your open mind.

Trust me, anything you say here can and will be used against you…

Originally Posted by Deacon Ed B
You certainly hit the nail on the head. With both statements.

Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Calling traditionalists closed minded and inferring that anything said by someone that is not a traditionalist will be ‘used against you’?

Ok, but if I called you closed minded, most would say that it was an attack on you. Like I said, they aren’t great examples and there are plenty of other examples on both sides. Not really the emphasis of my posts though.

Let me reiterate…

Can you imagine - in this Year of St. Paul - if we took all the energy used to attack each other and turn it towards spreading the love and salvation of Christ to those that urgently need it? Those outside of the Catholic Church? I think both “trads” and “progs” (notice I didn’t say libs ) have great tools of evangelization that would appeal to those hungry for Christ and salvation, no?

 

[otjm]

The text is actually exactly the same from both Missals. “vouchsafed” is just another way of saying “humbled himself”. Since the Mass is always in Latin, the translation really isn’t that important in the 1962 Missal.

And I bet there isn’t one person in 50,000 who could tell you that.

Is the purpose of the fuss about the ICEL translation to take us back to a language set that most people who are old enough to have lived during that subset don’t understand, and no one since then does?

I am not suggesting that the translations we have today are good, or entirely without criticism. But your example is going to fly right over the heads of the vast majority of people. While I have a problem with what we currently have, I have as much if not more problem with turning to words that also do not express a concept to the vast majority of people in the pews.

Not everyone has a graduate degree in English; most don’t have an undergraduate degree in English. A whole lot don’t have an undergraduate degree. I have no problem with beautiful language, as opposed to using the lowest common denominator. But I do have a problem with something that has the appearance that an effete snob was doing the writing. These are the prayers of the Church; they need to be just that, not the prayers of the sophisticated minority. Surely there must be somewhere we can all meet without having to leave what seems to be the low end of the spectrum only to move to the other end.

 

[BSHoop96]

However, on this forum, the change most often discussed is not inspired by Christian principles but worldly principles. Were this a Catholics Only forum, there would be a lot less of that and, I think, a better understanding.

God bless,
Ed

I don’t get that. I thought most posters in this discussion were Catholic. I can’t imagine why protestants would even be in a discussion about the liturgy and such.
Anyway, I thought we had been discussing liturgies and councils and such and the changes made by the Church so don’t quite follow what you’re saying here.

 

[BSHoop96]

Quote:
*Originally Posted by BSHoop96 **
I think you better go back and read the posts of the two you mentioned earlier. They are not a good example of posters who “attack” traditionalists. Unless by “attack” you mean their opinion differs. *

Ok BSHoop96, lemme go back and read the posts…

Quote:
**Originally Posted by ethelzguy **
If only some of our traditionalist bretheren had your open mind.

Trust me, anything you say here can and will be used against you…

Quote:
**Originally Posted by Deacon Ed B **
You certainly hit the nail on the head. With both statements.

*So you still see them as attacks? I think perhaps you are a little too thin-skinned. Personally I think to call those “attacks” is stretching and they weren’t aimed at anyone in particular and certainly called no one by name.

I’ll admit Ethelsguy does have somewhat of a dry sense of humor. The statement was true though. You have to know your stuff on here because we have very knowledgeable posters on both sides. And DeaconEd is one of the most fair-minded posters I have seen.

My point is that it is really unnecessary to name posters and accuse them of “attacks” when they are really not the problem. You add to it when you do that.

But yes, I agree with your main point on wasting time on “attacks.” I guess our definition of attack in this instance was just different. *

 

[BSHoop96]

Is the purpose of the fuss about the ICEL translation to take us back to a language set that most people who are old enough to have lived during that subset don’t understand, and no one since then does?

I am not suggesting that the translations we have today are good, or entirely without criticism. But your example is going to fly right over the heads of the vast majority of people. While I have a problem with what we currently have, I have as much if not more problem with turning to words that also do not express a concept to the vast majority of people in the pews.

Not everyone has a graduate degree in English; most don’t have an undergraduate degree in English. A whole lot don’t have an undergraduate degree. I have no problem with beautiful language, as opposed to using the lowest common denominator. But I do have a problem with something that has the appearance that an effete snob was doing the writing. These are the prayers of the Church; they need to be just that, not the prayers of the sophisticated minority. Surely there must be somewhere we can all meet without having to leave what seems to be the low end of the spectrum only to move to the other end.

otjm, excellent!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I beg to differ. Open mind can also mean accepting either form of the Mass as the Pope and the magisterium want us to even if it involves change and is not our preference.

If you really read the posts that were put on here during the last 9-12 months, you would see that most of us have constantly said that both forms of the mass are accepted and OK. That all we see is a preference for one form over the other which Holy Mother Church graciously gives us. We have had people call the Novus Ordo, bordering on the heretical, One call one woman , either pig ugly or pig stupid when she simple expressed her preference. We have continually pointed out that we are talking about the Holy sacrifice of the mass, a reenactment of Calvary wherein Jesus was crucified, trying to get people to calm down and not insulting and degrading a particular form of the mass. This is where many of the older members (time on the forum) are coming from. We are not being intolerant, we are just getting ready for the next round of attacks on a particular form of the mass, or attacks on the popes, and getting ready to defend them, once again from their being called heretical. Or worse yet, (and I won’t say it). This is where we are coming from. I realize you were not here when the majority of this was going on full steam. It has toned down some, but still rears its ugly head. Perhaps knowing this bit of what has been going on before you joined the forum will help you understand where we are coming from.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[BSHoop96]

If you really read the posts that were put on here during the last 9-12 months, you would see that most of us have constantly said that both forms of the mass are accepted and OK. That all we see is a preference for one form over the other which Holy Mother Church graciously gives us. We have had people call the Novus Ordo, bordering on the heretical, One call one woman , either pig ugly or pig stupid when she simple expressed her preference. We have continually pointed out that we are talking about the Holy sacrifice of the mass, a reenactment of Calvary wherein Jesus was crucified, trying to get people to calm down and not insulting and degrading a particular form of the mass. This is where many of the older members (time on the forum) are coming from. We are not being intolerant, we are just getting ready for the next round of attacks on a particular form of the mass, or attacks on the popes, and getting ready to defend them, once again from their being called heretical. Or worse yet, (and I won’t say it). This is where we are coming from. I realize you were not here when the majority of this was going on full steam. It has toned down some, but still rears its ugly head. Perhaps knowing this bit of what has been going on before you joined the forum will help you understand where we are coming from.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

DeaconEd, I think you have somehow misunderstood me.
I was responding to a poster who said that “open mind implies open to secular change.” I meant it could also mean exactly what you said: have an open mind to either of two valid Masses.

As I said in post #85 I have never seen you be “unfair” and I agree with you. I thought the reference to one of your remarks as an “attack” was totally unfounded.

I think that as long as it’s okay with the Church a person should be able to go to whichever he prefers and that should be the end of it until the Pope says otherwise. Plus, I’m all for the Pope cleaning up abuses in either form according to his criteria.

I attend a wonderful, conservative parish with a great priest and a beautiful NO service, btw.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

DeaconEd, I think you have somehow misunderstood me.
I was responding to a poster who said that “open mind implies open to secular change.” I meant it could also mean exactly what you said: have an open mind to either of two valid Masses.

As I said in post #85 I have never seen you be “unfair” and I agree with you. I thought the reference to one of your remarks as an “attack” was totally unfounded.

I think that as long as it’s okay with the Church a person should be able to go to whichever he prefers and that should be the end of it until the Pope says otherwise. Plus, I’m all for the Pope cleaning up abuses in either form according to his criteria.

I attend a wonderful, conservative parish with a great priest and a beautiful NO service, btw.

You are correct. I did misunderstand you. For that I apologize. Maybe some other new members will get an understanding of where we are coming from.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[BSHoop96]

You are correct. I did misunderstand you. For that I apologize. Maybe some other new members will get an understanding of where we are coming from.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

It does get a little fast and furious on here. Then sometimes you are reading only a portion of a quote. Then sometimes someone is responding to something you said to someone else…or vice versa … gets confusing!

I came on the traditional site to learn some things but sure didn’t know I was “landing on the beaches”!

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Any good orthodox Catholic warrior is always welcome. but then again even that description could cause a whole new thread.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Ghoti]

Another objection is the banality and pedestrian nature of the prayers, especially in their current english translations as made by the ICEL (International Committee for English in the Liturgy). As an illustration, where a good translation of a prayer from the Mass might say “Lord, all things stand in awe before your supreme and ineffable Majesty. Allow us, through these sacred Mysteries, to have some share of your Divine essence.”, an ICEL-style translation would say “God, you are big. Help us to be big like you.” The english prayers of the Mass are neutered in this way, removing much of their beauty.

Dear Dauphin,

Is this what you might be suggesting?

“Oh Lord, you are so big,
So absolutely huge.
Gosh, we’re all really impressed down here, let me tell you.
Forgive us, O Lord,
For this dreadful toadying and barefaced flattery.
But you are so strong and, well,
Just so super.
Fantastic.
Amen.”

 

[LilyM]

Dear Dauphin,

Is this what you might be suggesting?

“Oh Lord, you are so big,
So absolutely huge.
Gosh, we’re all really impressed down here, let me tell you.
Forgive us, O Lord,
For this dreadful toadying and barefaced flattery.
But you are so strong and, well,
Just so super.
Fantastic.
Amen.”

Ahh, love the smell of Monty Python quotes in the morning! I think this one is probably my favourite:

"O Lord, please don’t burn us.
Don’t grill or toast Your flock.
Don’t put us on the barbecue
Or simmer us in stock.
Don’t braise or bake or boil us
Or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh, please don’t lightly poach us
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don’t fricassee or roast us
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don’t stick Thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat.

Thanks be to God."

 

[PrayforMallory]

Ahh, love the smell of Monty Python quotes in the morning! I think this one is probably my favourite:

"O Lord, please don’t burn us.
Don’t grill or toast Your flock.
Don’t put us on the barbecue
Or simmer us in stock.
Don’t braise or bake or boil us
Or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh, please don’t lightly poach us
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don’t fricassee or roast us
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don’t stick Thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat.

Thanks be to God."

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

And I bet there isn’t one person in 50,000 who could tell you that.

Is the purpose of the fuss about the ICEL translation to take us back to a language set that most people who are old enough to have lived during that subset don’t understand, and no one since then does?

I am not suggesting that the translations we have today are good, or entirely without criticism. But your example is going to fly right over the heads of the vast majority of people. While I have a problem with what we currently have, I have as much if not more problem with turning to words that also do not express a concept to the vast majority of people in the pews.

Not everyone has a graduate degree in English; most don’t have an undergraduate degree in English. A whole lot don’t have an undergraduate degree. I have no problem with beautiful language, as opposed to using the lowest common denominator. But I do have a problem with something that has the appearance that an effete snob was doing the writing. These are the prayers of the Church; they need to be just that, not the prayers of the sophisticated minority. Surely there must be somewhere we can all meet without having to leave what seems to be the low end of the spectrum only to move to the other end.

And why wouldn’t they understand the vernacular translation of the TLM? Are Catholics stupid? Were Catholics who used a missal prior to Vatican II actually dumbfounded by the English translation?

Okay, here is a link to the translation of the first part of the Traditional Latin Mass:

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/66/ContentIndex/18/Start/17

I invite anyone to look at it and see if it is really all that difficult to comprehend. Here is a link to the rest of the Mass:

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/TextContents/Index/4/SubIndex/66/TextIndex/17

God bless.

 

[Ghoti]

And why wouldn’t they understand the vernacular translation of the TLM? Are Catholics stupid? Were Catholics who used a missal prior to Vatican II actually dumbfounded by the English translation?

Okay, here is a link to the translation of the first part of the Traditional Latin Mass:

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/66/ContentIndex/18/Start/17

I invite anyone to look at it and see if it is really all that difficult to comprehend. Here is a link to the rest of the Mass:

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/TextContents/Index/4/SubIndex/66/TextIndex/17

God bless.

What’s a catec-human? Is that like a lolcat? :whacky:

I don’t have much trouble understanding the English.

I don’t see the language/grammar here being much different than in the prayers we retained, like “Our Father, Who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy Name” vs “Our Father in heaven, Your Name is holy”.

If you are used to that form of the Mass, and had a Missal, it seems you would know what each bit meant; you would be familiar with it, and not thrown by the “thees and thous”, words like “vouchsafe” and “countenance”, and the slightly more archaic sentence structure.

What I would like to know is, where the priest gets off casting aspersions.

On a side note, the more I look at this, the more I’d like to assist at a Latin Mass.

 

[DL82]

I guess I’m not your ‘normal’ Traditional Catholic either, in that I love the Latin Mass, but also love the Charismatic Renewal movement. I think both together stand for the revival of God’s Church in all its’ spiritual depth and meaning.

 

[Ghoti]

Side question:

Does the faithful say anything at all in the Mass? It looks like only the priest and the server say anything.

 

[DL82]

Side question:

Does the faithful say anything at all in the Mass? It looks like only the priest and the server say anything.

In the TLM, the server or the choir usually takes the role of speaking for ‘the faithful’. I’ve been to Latin Masses where the whole congregation speaks/sings the responses though.

 

[Ghoti]

In the TLM, the server or the choir usually takes the role of speaking for ‘the faithful’. I’ve been to Latin Masses where the whole congregation speaks/sings the responses though.

So at some Masses the faithful just sit there, silent?

I think for me, that would be a bigger culture shock than any other facet of the Mass – including the language (at least there I’d have a Missal).