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Leebo
Guest
If the Catholic Church is assimilating it is the Church’s fault. I personally can’t distinguish the Catholic Church from society at large.
The leadership of the Catholic Church in the USA has been a massive failure for many years on all levels.
Many parishes even those with Catholic grade schools and high schools have not educated their members on the Catholic faith.
The issue at Notre Dame is no different in my mind than the issue of sexual abuse scandal. The leadership simply ignore the problem. Why they do this is up to debate. Why would any priest who abused a child even one time still be a priest? Why does Notre Dame, Georgetown, and other so called Catholic institutions still carry the Catholic brand when they long ago quit caring about teaching the faith.
Every priest that has been known to abuse children should be immediately stripped of their priesthood and turned over to proper authorities to face criminal charges where appropriate. Evey Catholic university that violates Church teaching should be stripped of the Catholic brand.
All throughout history many Catholics have went to their death for the faith. In this country the leadership of the Church won’t even make a stand on the clearest cases of rebellion against Church teaching.
Personally, I believe that a large number of priests and bishops have very weak faith if any at all. I bet there are more than a few that don’t even believe in God. With this kind of example why would any lay person show allegiance to the Church.
If lay people could distinguish between the Catholic Church and the secular culture, if they were led by example and educated proudly on the teachings of the Church then people would flock to her.
If the Catholic Church is being assimilated into secular culture it is because they are being led their by their leaders.
The leadership of the Catholic Church in the USA has been a massive failure for many years on all levels.
Many parishes even those with Catholic grade schools and high schools have not educated their members on the Catholic faith.
The issue at Notre Dame is no different in my mind than the issue of sexual abuse scandal. The leadership simply ignore the problem. Why they do this is up to debate. Why would any priest who abused a child even one time still be a priest? Why does Notre Dame, Georgetown, and other so called Catholic institutions still carry the Catholic brand when they long ago quit caring about teaching the faith.
Every priest that has been known to abuse children should be immediately stripped of their priesthood and turned over to proper authorities to face criminal charges where appropriate. Evey Catholic university that violates Church teaching should be stripped of the Catholic brand.
All throughout history many Catholics have went to their death for the faith. In this country the leadership of the Church won’t even make a stand on the clearest cases of rebellion against Church teaching.
Personally, I believe that a large number of priests and bishops have very weak faith if any at all. I bet there are more than a few that don’t even believe in God. With this kind of example why would any lay person show allegiance to the Church.
If lay people could distinguish between the Catholic Church and the secular culture, if they were led by example and educated proudly on the teachings of the Church then people would flock to her.
If the Catholic Church is being assimilated into secular culture it is because they are being led their by their leaders.
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JimG
Guest
As for Notre Dame, if the parents went there, or they have an affinity for the football team, I can see where they might want to send their kids there. But if they want to send them to a Catholic university, well, there’s no need to spend thousands of dollars on a Catholic education and not get the ‘Catholic’ part of it.
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ChristIsLord
Guest
the students and staff at notre dame overwhelmingly support obama speaking there. the people that seem to really have a problem with it are folks with no affiliation with notre dame at all.
it’s an institution of higher learning primarily they can not simply ban all people from speaking who don’t hold to traditional catholic views. obama like it or not was a huge historical event and having him give the commencement will help the universities prestige.
look 50% of the people in this country support abortion rights for a woman, you can’t simply ignore that half the population do not believe a fetus is a human life yet even though you do whole heartedly believe that. you are going to have to learn to live with it because there is absolutely no chance of abortion ever being outlawed in the US ever.
jesus isn’t going to miracle it away god isn’t going strike down san francisco with fire and brimstone in retaliation. the supreme court has spoken and abortion is a federally protected right, there’s a better chance of going back to jim crowe than abortion being overturned.
it’s an institution of higher learning primarily they can not simply ban all people from speaking who don’t hold to traditional catholic views. obama like it or not was a huge historical event and having him give the commencement will help the universities prestige.
look 50% of the people in this country support abortion rights for a woman, you can’t simply ignore that half the population do not believe a fetus is a human life yet even though you do whole heartedly believe that. you are going to have to learn to live with it because there is absolutely no chance of abortion ever being outlawed in the US ever.
jesus isn’t going to miracle it away god isn’t going strike down san francisco with fire and brimstone in retaliation. the supreme court has spoken and abortion is a federally protected right, there’s a better chance of going back to jim crowe than abortion being overturned.
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Seamus_L
Guest
The majority of those in the World who consider themselves Catholic, reject outright many of the Church’s teachings. What can we say of those people other than “They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us” Sadly, what happened at Notre Dame is no surprise.
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ChristinaM
Guest
So, truth is decided by majority vote? Used to be that the majority of Americans didn’t believe that black people deserved full rights of citizenship. Was that okay because it was a decision by the majority?
Sorry, I refuse to “live with” or “get over” injustice.
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Leebo
Guest
I didn’t say they should ban anyone from speaking there. I simply stated that they should be stripped of thier Brand and not be recognized as a Catholic Institution. I don’t have near as much a problem with Obama speaking there as I do the failure of so many students to recognize even the most very basic fundemental teaching of the Catholic Church.
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ChristIsLord
Guest
what i’m saying is that half of your neighbors, family, friends believe opposite of you. the other side believes that YOU are trying to dominate women and control them using antiquated religious dogma, and that YOU are the one trying to enforce an injustice. and similarly to how black folks were treated a womans right to an abortion is ferderally protected and will never go away.
my point is there needs to be an ability to dialogue and meet in the middle, on one side you have idiots killing abortion doctors and on the other you have neo-feminazis calling for abortion up to full term. if people would realize that neither side is going away and neither side will get what they want you could limit abortion to a simply 3 month cut off or something.
anyay the point is about obama and notre dame, and it’s obvious that the vast majority of students and staff support obama speaking at notre dame, they are the ones supporting the institution not you so…
and again it’s an institution of higher learning they can’t limit who can speak there to ultra-conservative catholics, i mean there speaking engagements would be pretty limited and they would lose a ton of clout as a university if they did that.
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JimG
Guest
I don’t know where ‘neo-feminazis’ stand, but the fact is that right now, abortion up to full term is legal in the United States.
Yes, that is an extreme pro-abortion law, especially in a country where 51% call themselves pro-life. Not only that, other polls suggest that a great many if not most, would not allow abortion up to full term, or for any reason, as is now the case. They would like to see some restrictions.
So yes, let’s compromise. Let’s not have such an extreme pro-abortion law. Let’s say, for example, no abortions past viability, or even no abortions past 6 months. Or, no abortion except if necessary to save the mother’s life. Or, here’s a thought: let’s have states vote on their own abortion laws.
Would such compromises be acceptable to Obama, to NARAL, to PP? No–they like the law just as it is–abortion legal throughout nine months of pregnancy.
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Leebo
Guest
That you and the ‘other side’ believe that Catholics are trying to dominate women and not protect innocent human life does not make that a fact. It is dishonest to spin it that way.
Actually, there is a wealth of information available that proves abortion effects many women negatively in a variety of ways.
This is very rare, but when it is done it is against the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Abortion on the other hand in all stages is much more common and done with the full support of the pro Choice movement.
This is true and very sad in my opinion. They can continue to support the institution, but they shouldn’t be able to claim it as Catholic, and it should be considered blasphemous to keep the name.
Come on be honest, you would consider any Catholic that actually practiced their faith to be “ultra-conservative”
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irishpatrick
Guest
Jesus won’t have to do that, we will do it to ourselves. This nation is being slowly ripped apart because of these issues and faithful Christians have warned of this for the last two decades. God often allows chastisements to come from us!
Tell me, if the issue of abortion were swapped for slavery, where do you think people would stand on that?
BTW, to date, $14-million dollars of annual donations are now being withheld from ND by ND alumi–people who went there and are sickened by all this and yes they can ban anyone they want from speaking.
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emily789
Guest
It is disgusting to me that Notre Dame, a “Catholic” institution, AWARDED someone, president or not, that openly opposes the Church’s teachings. I would have no problem with Obama visiting as a guest speaker, as universities are supposed to be places of intellectual discourse, but presenting him with an award is essentially the same as endorsing him, and no Catholic institution should endorse someone who propagates something contrary to the Church’s teachings, especially something as serious as the destruction of innocent human life. I am upset with how lenient some members of the Church are being towards those responsible for scandals like these 
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PaulJason
Guest
While it saddens me that many are leaving the Church, I must truly believe in the saying “Prune the Church, and it will grow”. Those branches may remove themselves from the vine but it does not make the vine weaker, it strengthens the vine, for the time when the branches wish to return.
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Leebo
Guest
I support this. Either the Church believes it has something wonderful to offer or it doesn’t. The way it looks to me now, is that the Church doesn’t really believe in what it teaches. (in the US especially) if they did they would behave much differently than they are now.
Question, why isn’t the church being pruned? My theory is that a “pruning” would cause an even greater number to leave the Church in the short term. (In the long term I think the Church would be the best its ever been). This would cause, dare I say, a finacial burden on the Church. I may be wrong, I am sure there are those on this forum that could educate me.
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ChristIsLord
Guest
well people are free to withold money but i’m sure the church will end up making a lot more than 14 mil due to obama’s speech.
i’m not pro-abortion at all i think there’s very few if any reasons that an abortion should be undertaken however it’s not from any religious dogma just a personal belief possibly about karma or what if, or what could’ve been i wouldn’t want to ask myself that question five years from now and regret that decision. thankfully i’m a man and it ain’t my decision anyway.
obama is a popular and polarizing figure, his election like it or not was historic, adn to have him give the commencement address is a big deal, notre was NOT going to turn that down. and franklhy the bishops and vatican are essentially silent on the matter so wring your hands all you but it won’t make a difference since your leadership is not on board with you. the bishops and the vatican could simply take care of any controversy yet just like nancy pelosi recieivng communion on sunday and the next day passing a partial birth abortion bill the catholic leadership has shown they are little bark and zero bite.
i’m not pro-abortion at all i think there’s very few if any reasons that an abortion should be undertaken however it’s not from any religious dogma just a personal belief possibly about karma or what if, or what could’ve been i wouldn’t want to ask myself that question five years from now and regret that decision. thankfully i’m a man and it ain’t my decision anyway.
obama is a popular and polarizing figure, his election like it or not was historic, adn to have him give the commencement address is a big deal, notre was NOT going to turn that down. and franklhy the bishops and vatican are essentially silent on the matter so wring your hands all you but it won’t make a difference since your leadership is not on board with you. the bishops and the vatican could simply take care of any controversy yet just like nancy pelosi recieivng communion on sunday and the next day passing a partial birth abortion bill the catholic leadership has shown they are little bark and zero bite.
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imperial
Guest
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edwest2
Guest
The Body of Christ in the United States was slowly, gradually poisoned. Let’s review:
The attack on the family began in 1968. Humanae Vitae told Catholics that if you start using artificial birth control that you will be tempted to have sex “without consequences.” I was there. But the sale of millions of birth control pills was at stake.
Send in the Hippies. Free love! If it feels good, do it! I don’t need no piece of paper to live with my old lady. Down with the Establishment! And they encouraged young people to smoke marijuana and take dangerous drugs like LSD (a powerful hallucinogen).
The goal was to destroy the family by separating sex from true love.
1970s I’m driving around and Adult Bookstores selling porn appear everywhere. Who allowed this?
1973 Please! Please have mercy on poor young women dying from back alley abortions due to rape and incest. Please! Please! Have compassion. We’ll only use it in case of emergencies. Yeah, right.
Meanwhile, TV shows are getting more sexually suggestive. Adultery and fornication are relabeled, Swinging. And a movie called Bob, Carol, Ted and Alice appears.
And the whole time, too many Catholics thought, Oh, that’s not so bad.
1978 Sisters! Throw off the chains of your oppression!! All the men in a woman’s life are the enemy! Down with motherhood. Get a career!
1980s Porn on cable and in motels. Sue Ellen on Dallas drinking booze straight out of the bottle while driving. J.R. Ewing is the most evil man in the world. Who shot J.R.?
No-Fault Divorce completes its sweep of the country. And too many women, thoroughly convinced and/or justified by NOW, get a divorce. And movies show the recently divorced guy getting a pat on the back from his buddies at the bar. Don’t worry. They say. You’re better off without her. You’ll find someone better (?).
1990s Into the abyss. Church attendance is down, mall attendance is up. So many people are divorced, cohabiting, and doing God knows what that up is down and right is wrong. Send in the Shock Jocks and comedians spewing profanity. Saying all kinds of anti-Christian things. Send in the Rappers (Hip Hop) ‘singers’ talking about disrespecting and harming women and anybody who gets in their way and cussin’ and swearin’. And hours and hours of graphic sex talk.
And the internet. Global porn access.
Meanwhile, the sons and daughters of the '60s radicals ended up teaching our kids. The Catholic seminaries did not get proper Church teaching, with priests telling their flock that artificial birth control was up to them and their conscience. Only now is that being turned around. Only now are Church leaders talking about the secular administration of Catholic centers of higher learning, including the occasional troublemaker priest.
I don’t think Catholics should put all of the blame at the top. No one comes to your house if you miss Mass to scold you. God does not force you to love Him or to serve Him.
If you’re concerned about Notre Dame then send a letter to Father Jenkins. And I don’t mean an angry letter but a letter reminding him of the Church’s position on such a matter.
Don’t think the way the world thinks. The Bible tells us, Don’t follow the crowd in doing evil. So even if that means that only a minority of Catholics disagree then be heard and pray. However, remember that many of your brothers and sisters in Christ, especially those over 30, are too distracted by the world and a media that tells them what is average or normal or mainstream. Pick up a Catholic newspaper or magazine. Talk to your priest if you have questions. I’m sure he’ll be glad to hear from you.
Peace,
Ed
The attack on the family began in 1968. Humanae Vitae told Catholics that if you start using artificial birth control that you will be tempted to have sex “without consequences.” I was there. But the sale of millions of birth control pills was at stake.
Send in the Hippies. Free love! If it feels good, do it! I don’t need no piece of paper to live with my old lady. Down with the Establishment! And they encouraged young people to smoke marijuana and take dangerous drugs like LSD (a powerful hallucinogen).
The goal was to destroy the family by separating sex from true love.
1970s I’m driving around and Adult Bookstores selling porn appear everywhere. Who allowed this?
1973 Please! Please have mercy on poor young women dying from back alley abortions due to rape and incest. Please! Please! Have compassion. We’ll only use it in case of emergencies. Yeah, right.
Meanwhile, TV shows are getting more sexually suggestive. Adultery and fornication are relabeled, Swinging. And a movie called Bob, Carol, Ted and Alice appears.
And the whole time, too many Catholics thought, Oh, that’s not so bad.
1978 Sisters! Throw off the chains of your oppression!! All the men in a woman’s life are the enemy! Down with motherhood. Get a career!
1980s Porn on cable and in motels. Sue Ellen on Dallas drinking booze straight out of the bottle while driving. J.R. Ewing is the most evil man in the world. Who shot J.R.?
No-Fault Divorce completes its sweep of the country. And too many women, thoroughly convinced and/or justified by NOW, get a divorce. And movies show the recently divorced guy getting a pat on the back from his buddies at the bar. Don’t worry. They say. You’re better off without her. You’ll find someone better (?).
1990s Into the abyss. Church attendance is down, mall attendance is up. So many people are divorced, cohabiting, and doing God knows what that up is down and right is wrong. Send in the Shock Jocks and comedians spewing profanity. Saying all kinds of anti-Christian things. Send in the Rappers (Hip Hop) ‘singers’ talking about disrespecting and harming women and anybody who gets in their way and cussin’ and swearin’. And hours and hours of graphic sex talk.
And the internet. Global porn access.
Meanwhile, the sons and daughters of the '60s radicals ended up teaching our kids. The Catholic seminaries did not get proper Church teaching, with priests telling their flock that artificial birth control was up to them and their conscience. Only now is that being turned around. Only now are Church leaders talking about the secular administration of Catholic centers of higher learning, including the occasional troublemaker priest.
I don’t think Catholics should put all of the blame at the top. No one comes to your house if you miss Mass to scold you. God does not force you to love Him or to serve Him.
If you’re concerned about Notre Dame then send a letter to Father Jenkins. And I don’t mean an angry letter but a letter reminding him of the Church’s position on such a matter.
Don’t think the way the world thinks. The Bible tells us, Don’t follow the crowd in doing evil. So even if that means that only a minority of Catholics disagree then be heard and pray. However, remember that many of your brothers and sisters in Christ, especially those over 30, are too distracted by the world and a media that tells them what is average or normal or mainstream. Pick up a Catholic newspaper or magazine. Talk to your priest if you have questions. I’m sure he’ll be glad to hear from you.
Peace,
Ed
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the_phoenix
Guest
Firstly, thank you for the accurate timeline. I’d like to add another date:
9/11/2001: For one or two Sundays following the destruction of the Twin Towers by Islamic terrorists, the church was packed. All of a sudden, people had found religion. You’d think it was Christmas or Easter from the number of people attending Mass. Then about a month later … Mass attendance had somehow started to dwindle back down to “normal levels” as the immediate memory started to fade and complacency drifted back in. At least that’s what I observed in my parish.
As for Catholics blaming people at the top, you do have a point. For 4,000 babies to be dying on a daily basis, that’s 4,000 mothers each day deciding to abort. If even one of those mothers calls herself Catholic, that’s one too many. How many Catholic husbands/boyfriends have pressured a wife/girlfriend into an abortion?
(EDIT: The loss of life of ANY one of these 4,000 babies a day is infinitely too much, of course, and the harm done to EVERY woman and man involved, as each and every one is precious in God’s sight.)
The number of Catholic voters and our power to vote in pro-life candidates if only we would unite is another example commonly seen in these forums.
My bet is that each one of us as individuals can improve on how well we live out the culture of life in our own lives … myself included.
~~ the phoenix
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edwest2
Guest
You are right. Will we, as Catholics, be forced to do what’s right? Jesus didn’t advocate that.
But we gradually transitioned into living like Agnostics, as one priest put it.
I stood in front of an abortion clinic with one young lady who had previously had an abortion there. I had a chance to meet the daughter she did not abort after giving her life to Christ.
I think for too many Catholics, the world’s way began to look easier, less stressful and even fun or attractive. But what is the fruit of not doing it God’s way? What do we have today in our Catholic communities? As I pointed out, it happened so gradually, I know some people still come home from work and turn on the TV like nothing’s changed. I’m here to tell you – the message is all wrong today. The TV is no longer a worthwhile guest in our homes. And the movies? My God. Fornication is a running theme. It used to be, boy meets girl, they fall in love and get married. Now, boy meets girl, they jump into the sack and call themselves a couple and live together.
Peace,
Ed
But we gradually transitioned into living like Agnostics, as one priest put it.
I stood in front of an abortion clinic with one young lady who had previously had an abortion there. I had a chance to meet the daughter she did not abort after giving her life to Christ.
I think for too many Catholics, the world’s way began to look easier, less stressful and even fun or attractive. But what is the fruit of not doing it God’s way? What do we have today in our Catholic communities? As I pointed out, it happened so gradually, I know some people still come home from work and turn on the TV like nothing’s changed. I’m here to tell you – the message is all wrong today. The TV is no longer a worthwhile guest in our homes. And the movies? My God. Fornication is a running theme. It used to be, boy meets girl, they fall in love and get married. Now, boy meets girl, they jump into the sack and call themselves a couple and live together.
Peace,
Ed
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swampfox
Guest
The Washington Post writer appears not to know what an informed conscience is or where respect for life belongs in the hierarchy of values. It is sad to see so many “Catholic” graduates cheer “yes we can” in response to protestors with signs saying “Stop Killing our Children.” Guess that says it all for what Catholics have become in America. THis is no surprise given the lack of leadership of the Church hierarchy, the tolerance and coverup of pederasty for 30 years, the promotion of an increasingly homosexual clergy and a disregard for orthodoxy, followed by the purposeful failure to call on the Faithful to actually live the Faith (whatever That is). Now, we have a so-called Catholic university siding with a proponent of partial birth abortion and finding more in common with such a man, then the protestors calling on the school and Church leaders to uphold the tenets of the Faith. I’ll never forget the monsignor at my liberal parish never missing a beat in calling for social justice and peace and tolerance, but never once discussing the Church’s position on life. The Church used to be an oasis of Truth in this world, but now it seems many of its leaders either remain silent or speak with a forked tongue and join the secular chorus that sees the institution of the Church as a mortal enemy that must be destroyed from within and without.
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