Notre Dame Pays Student Expenses to D.C. March for Gay 'Marriage'

[Domer1997]

So, Domer1997, the SAO was not even contacted regarding the march then? The students did not receive permission to attend this event as a Notre Dame organization (as they apparently aren’t from what you said)? If true, it appears that the Observer was not only wrong, but flat out lying.

Thomas Peters, the AmericanPapist, added a twist to this story are there are also apparently fliers concerning some type of petition or event for a ‘coming out’ day.
americanpapist.com/2009/10/huh-notre-dame-funds-students-to-attend.html

Just want to clarify…so there’s no confusion because I can see how one of my posts can be kind of confusing.

The Progressive Student Alliance is an officially recognized Student Organization at Notre Dame. What they are not is a pro-homosexual group at Notre Dame. They aren’t allowed to have that in their charter. Now, since it is a more “progressive” group, I would venture to say that some members individually support gay rights, although it’s not the group’s official stance (or it wouldn’t have been recognized by the university). So, since they are sanctioned by ND they can fundraise. Five members wanted to attend this March in DC, so the group’s personal funds (not the university’s or SOA’s) helped pay for the trip.

So, in short, no university $$$ was used because that wouldn’t have been approved. But, they do have the autonomy to use their money as they see fit. I’m sure that they went to DC not as official representatives at Notre Dame. I know for sure that would not have been allowed.

I think that clears it all up

 

[CatholicCid]

Domer1997, would you happen to know the rules/regulations the groups at Notre Dame are to follow regarding fund raising, similar to what JR had discussed earlier?

I know that other IN universities require that student organizations place any funds raised within an account with the SAO (or some other student organization), whether it be through fund raising, which the University would have to approve anyway, or club dues. If Notre Dame has a similar setup for such things, then it seems they would still need some type of approval from the SAO or some organization to access these funds for this trip. And, if it was to fund a student trip not relating to any club, other universities would have flat-out rejected their petition.

I’ve quite frankly never seen any ‘official’ club funds kept solely by the club independent of any university office. If it was a student’s personal funds, I could understand. But, then the club would and should have no involvement in the spending. And there has yet to have been an edit within any article stating the misinformation, including the apparent fabrication of either quotes or beliefs relating to how funding was produced.

Regardless, it looks like ND should take another look at the PSA. While they may have a ‘passing’ charter, where they spend their club funds I suppose could get them in hot water?

 

[Domer1997]

Domer1997, would you happen to know the rules/regulations the groups at Notre Dame are to follow regarding fund raising, similar to what JR had discussed earlier?

I know that other IN universities require that student organizations place any funds raised with the SAO (or some other student organization), whether it be through fund raising, which the University would have to approve anyway, or club dues. If Notre Dame has a similar setup for such things, then it seems they would still need some type of approval from the SAO or some organization to access these funds for this trip. And, if it was to fund a student trip not relating to any club, other universities would have flat-out rejected their petition.

I’ve quite frankly never seen any ‘official’ club funds kept solely by the club independent of any university office. If it was a student’s personal funds, I could understand. But, then the club would and should have no involvement in the spending.

Regardless, it looks like ND should take another look at the PSA. While they may have a ‘passing’ charter, where they spend their club funds I suppose could get them in hot water?

CatholicCid,
That’s actually a really good question. I can’t answer that. All I know is that the Student Activities Office assured me that the Observer had mixed up the facts and that the students did not receive any university or SAO funding for their trip. Whether they needed SAO approval to use their own money for the trip is a very good question. And, I agree, I believe that the Progressive Student Alliance may really be toeing the line for a student organization. But, I can also see how the university’s hands are tied if there are no anti-Catholic agendas in their charter. One can always assume that the group has an ulterior motive but it would be tough for the university to not approve an organization for assumptions. Tough call. I’m sure that there are members in the group with ulterior motives, but like I said, it’s tough to allow one group and not another group if neither have conflicting charters. I do know for a fact that Notre Dame does not allow any officially-recognized student groups who have any anti-Catholic stances in their charters. Even the college Democrats cannot mention anything about pro-choice or pro-homosexual marriage issues in their official charters, nor can the College Dem’s or College Republicans mention anything about pro-death penalty…since it goes against Catholic teaching. Now, are there college democrats who are students at ND and are pro-choice…of course. I wouldn’t say too many but obviously with a university of 10,000 there are some if not several.

I do know that the PSA is fairly small for a student organization…and cannot even begin to match the many, many great student organizations on campus, especially the ND Right to Life who send hundreds to DC each year in January for a much better cause

 

[JReducation]

Domer1997, would you happen to know the rules/regulations the groups at Notre Dame are to follow regarding fund raising, similar to what JR had discussed earlier?

I know that other IN universities require that student organizations place any funds raised within an account with the SAO (or some other student organization), whether it be through fund raising, which the University would have to approve anyway, or club dues. If Notre Dame has a similar setup for such things, then it seems they would still need some type of approval from the SAO or some organization to access these funds for this trip. And, if it was to fund a student trip not relating to any club, other universities would have flat-out rejected their petition.

I’ve quite frankly never seen any ‘official’ club funds kept solely by the club independent of any university office. If it was a student’s personal funds, I could understand. But, then the club would and should have no involvement in the spending. And there has yet to have been an edit within any article stating the misinformation, including the apparent fabrication of either quotes or beliefs relating to how funding was produced.

Regardless, it looks like ND should take another look at the PSA. While they may have a ‘passing’ charter, where they spend their club funds I suppose could get them in hot water?

The law (federal and state) allow students to open accounts in university organizations such as SAO or under some other name using their own EIN number and 501c3. The university cannot reject their EIN or 501c3. It can reject to allow them to setup an account. But once the account is established, the University must allow the group to use their numbers. If the University allows them to use their numbers, it has no legal or canonical control over the use of the funds. The choice is to allow the student organization to do their banking with the SAA or not from the start. But they cannot disallow their own EIN and 501c3 numbers.

This also happens at the diocesan levels. For example, all religious orders who run their own institutions do so in their own EIN and 501c3 numbers, not that of the diocese. They only use the diocesan number for ministries payed for by the diocese. The diocese does so with most Respect Life ministries around the country. They are usually self-funding, even though they are under the religious authority of the bishop, but not under the financial authority.

This is a common division to protect funds in cases of law suits. You can sue Notre Dame, but you cannot touch funds raised by the students.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[CatholicCid]

This got me interested, so I started browsing sao.nd.edu in my free time. Some of their links aren’t up yet.

-All fundraising activities must be approved in advance by the SAO.
-All financial transactions must be processed through the Student Union Treasurer’s Office.
-They have a travel request form for clubs, so it’s possible that needed to be filled out.
-They also have a liability waver for transportation off-campus, which possibly had to be filled out if the members traveled as part of PSA.
-It appears that they wouldn’t be able to apply for ‘funding’ for travel expenses, but could ask for reimbursement. (Which, in actuality, is how other colleges work as well, know that I start recalling memories of long ago)

Domer1997, thanks for your response. I would disagree somewhat, though, as one would think (at least in my limited knowledge) that a private university could in fact discipline any group they choose. If it were a state university, I could see the hands being tied quite tightly. However, if the organization is funding activities that show a disregard for their charter and/or the universities principles, one would think the university could and possibly should intervene. Hopefully, the PSA will be talked to concerning this matter, especially as it apparently was large enough to gain media attention (started by an official ND periodical, nonetheless).

I would also be somewhat surprised, especially in this day and age of paperwork and red tape, if a single university official did not hear about this event, including the fundraising, funding, and/or sending of students apparently involved with PSA, on some form or another.

That being said, of course I realize their are many great clubs at Notre Dame and that they have a rigorous charter program. That being said, I don’t think that they should ignore the actions of this small group, for as St. Paul said, “Do you not know that a little yeast leavens all the dough? Clear out the old yeast, so that you may become a fresh batch of dough…” (1 Cor. 5:6-7)

Pax Christi,
CC

-Edit-

JR,

Your terminology has, I’m afraid, gone over my head.

Just in my experience, at my temporary-Uni, we were allowed to set up a bank account with an office through the university. We had to deposit all funds gained through club-related activities into the account. If we wish to withdraw or seek reimbursement for club related activities, we would need to fill out a request and file it with the office. They would either then approve or reject the form. The paperwork the ND SAO site had seemed quite similar to our own.
I am a bit confused as how you say the university cannot dictate how the club utilizes their funds. I remember asking if we would be allowed to withdraw funds for any reason (say the club was closing and the student officers wish to withdraw the remaining funds). We were told “No. You cannot do that.” The funds could only be used for club related activities. And such activities also generally needed to be filled out, in advance, and filed with the SAO.

Pax,
CC

 

[JReducation]

JR,

Your terminology has, I’m afraid, gone over my head.

Just in my experience, at my temporary-Uni, we were allowed to set up a bank account with an office through the university. We had to deposit all funds gained through club-related activities into the account. If we wish to withdraw or seek reimbursement for club related activities, we would need to fill out a request and file it with the office. They would either then approve or reject the form. The paperwork the ND SAO site had seemed quite similar to our own.
I am a bit confused as how you say the university cannot dictate how the club utilizes their funds. I remember asking if we would be allowed to withdraw funds for any reason (say the club was closing and the student officers wish to withdraw the remaining funds). We were told “No. You cannot do that.” The funds could only be used for club related activities. And such activities also generally needed to be filled out, in advance, and filed with the SAO.

Pax,
CC

Oh, OK, let me help. In the past, accounts were very simple. Every Catholic college or university had its one EIN # and a 501c3 #. These were their federal and state tax exemption numbers. Student organizations would collect money and put them into university accounts that used the same numbers as the administration. Since the money was banked under the name of the university and the university’s ID numbers. the separation of funds was only recorded in the ledgers of the universities, not the banks. Therefore, the university had the authority to withhold funds from the students. Legally, as far as the government was concerned, all the money in the account was under the trusteeship of the university, much like a parent is a trustee for a child.

When the law suits against the Church began, dioceses, universities and other institutions began to separate their funds into separate into separate accounts. For example you can have many bank accounts that say Notre Dame University, but each one has its own Federal and State ID number. These are called EIN and 501c3 numbers. In this case, the university is not longer the trustee, because even though their name appears on the account, the ID number is that of the student organization who owns the money.

What happens in these cases is that the university has to place rules in the charters of these organizations that address the issue of money. The law says that if it’s not in writing, it does not exist and you must prove in court that it is implied. If the students want to use their money to attend a gay rights march and this is not against the charter, the students can demand their money. If the university refuses, because it says that it violates the charter of a Catholic University, they must prove it in court, since it’s not in writing.

But in this case, none of the above seemed to happen and all is well that ended well. It seems that there was just bad communication between the reporter and his sources. And I still don’t know what kind of setup ND has with its funds and the student’s funds. But I would not be surprised if they follow what every other religious order and diocese is doing, separating funds and putting them into the legal control of those who use it, instead of the umbrella organizations. No one can take what the organization does not own.

Did this help?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[CatholicCid]

Yes, that helped greatly. Made it much clearer. Thank you.

I’m assuming that public universities probably follow the old system then, as they really have little to fear due to such lawsuits as the Church saw.

Do you know what would happen to the funds if the organization were to close with funds still in the bank?
Is it also fair to assume this doesn’t effect the University’'s regulation of general club events/activities? e.g. If a club uses funding for travel expenses, but does not receive approval for the trip/traveling, regardless of funding, they could still be disciplined.

Pax Christi,
CC

 

[JReducation]

Yes, that helped greatly. Made it much clearer. Thank you.

I’m assuming that public universities probably follow the old system then, as they really have little to fear due to such lawsuits as the Church saw.

State universities follow a different finacial system. They are tax exempt to begin with. Whether they allow student organizations to use their own ID numbers to open accounts, I do not know how they do that. It’s not illegal. They can allow it.

Do you know what would happen to the funds if the organization were to close with funds still in the bank?

I’m assuming that you you’re talking about a Catholic organizaiton. If let’s say a paish closes. There is a merger. The parish that receives the parishioners also must receive the funds in the bank, the porperty belonging ot the old parish and all of its debts too. The same is applicable for mergers of schools and religious orders.

However, if a Catholic institution closes, such as a school, hospital, or university, if it belongs to a religious order, the money goes to the order, unless there was a prior agreement between the order and the bishop that the money and property belong to the diocese. If there are monies that belong to student organiztions, that money must be distributed according to the rules in charter of the organizatio.

I do know for a fact, that Franciscans cannot sell anything that they own as an order. There are other orders with the same kind of vow of poverty. Therefore, if we were to close down our institutions that we built with money that we raised, we still cannot keep the money or the property. We must either tranform the porperty to another use that we run, such as going from a college to a nursing home or we must surrender the property, the luquid assets, the debts and everything on the property: cars, furniture, flowe pots, etc . . . we must transfer it over to either the local bishop or to the Vatican. We may not make any profit out of what we build.
If thereis money that belongs to lay groups, it has to be distributred as per charter.

Is it also fair to assume this doesn’t effect the University’'s regulation of general club events/activities? e.g. If a club uses funding for travel expenses, but does not receive approval for the trip/traveling, regardless of funding, they could still be disciplined.

That has been challenged in courts. Lost in some states and won in others. What I mean is that the university can discipline for anything that is in its code of conduct. and there is little the legal system can do, unless the students want to claim that the code of conduct is unconstitutional. Then you’re putting the code on trial, not suing the university.

However, where universities have lost for disciplining students’s activities is when the wording in the code of conduct is not clear enough. Then the student’s can sue the school for violation of their civil rights.

The last university at which I was dean, we had a simple statement in the code of conduct. “No student may use the University’s name, logo, flag or other identifiable university symbol to represent the university at any event, location, function, project or other situation that is in conflict with the values, morals and faith of the Catholic Church. When there is a doubt, the doubt shall always be resolved in favor of the University, until such time as the student or student organization receives written permission from the university to proceed.” There were always consequences if you violated this.

They could ask for and get their money, but they could not proceed to use it in the way that they wanted to do so, unless they did so without using the school’s name. If they used the school’s name, such as carrying a banner at a gay marriage parade, they were in trouble. The university could not take way their right to speak for themselves. But it did withhold the right to speak for the university. There is a big difference. Any of us can speak for ourselves. But we can’t speak for others unless we have their authority to do so.

Does this help a little?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[DOShea]

While I’m fairly confident all the legal “i’s” were dotted and all the “T’s” crossed, there is still the matter of why a university pretending to be a Catholic institution of learning has something like a PSA on its campus, using its facilities, if the end product is participation in something that runs exactly counter to Catholic goals and teaching?

Why is it that ND cannot use this specific use of student monies as justification to ask the group to take their organization off-campus?

It seems absolutely ridiculous to think this is some kind of “fairness” issue when there are dozens of pro-life protesters right now being plastered by the state as a direct result of actions taken by the university, and the university fully supports that action and has taken no action to preclude the same thing happening in the future.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck… it’s a duck. Notre Dame is an embarrassment to Catholics in the U.S.

 

[JReducation]

While I’m fairly confident all the legal “i’s” were dotted and all the “T’s” crossed, there is still the matter of why a university pretending to be a Catholic institution of learning has something like a PSA on its campus, using its facilities, if the end product is participation in something that runs exactly counter to Catholic goals and teaching?

Why is it that ND cannot use this specific use of student monies as justification to ask the group to take their organization off-campus?

It seems absolutely ridiculous to think this is some kind of “fairness” issue when there are dozens of pro-life protesters right now being plastered by the state as a direct result of actions taken by the university, and the university fully supports that action and has taken no action to preclude the same thing happening in the future.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck… it’s a duck. Notre Dame is an embarrassment to Catholics in the U.S.

You have brought up another very good point. If you reread my post, just before your own, I said that it is very important for a religious university to make sure that it’s code of conduct is very specific, so that you minimize the loop holes. I wish that I could tell you that you can get rid of all the loop holes, but that would be a lie. Lawyers are always going to find one. But if you have good legal counsel, you can reduce the number.

That being said, there is a second issue that you bring up. Notre Dame’s issues are very important to the Catholic community. The reason is that the issues in which they have found themselves put them in a precarious position as an institution. It’s not the individual who is in a precarious position, but the whole university. When the administration of the university allows certain things to happen or has no control over certain thins that are in clear conflict with the bishops, then the institution is not in communon with the bishops.

It is one thing to have an individual on board the university who has his own ideas. It is quite another for the entire university to appear to be out of communion with the bishops. This is the part that they have to repair. Their rules and their manner of doing things have to reflect this communion. They are not being asked to restrain their students or restrict their freedoms. They are not being asked not to invite a president to the campus. They are being asked to remain in communion with the bishops by following some very specific directives.

If these students had went to the march on their own and used the university’s name, then they should be disciplined. This way, the university is consistent with the bishops. If the students go on their own and do not use the university’s name, there is no problem for the university. It’s the students’ problem and their issue. As I say to parents of adult children, you are not responsible for what your adult children do or say as long as they do not quote you or have your support.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Havard]

Domer1997, thanks for your response. I would disagree somewhat, though, as one would think (at least in my limited knowledge) that a private university could in fact discipline any group they choose. If it were a state university, I could see the hands being tied quite tightly. However, if the organization is funding activities that show a disregard for their charter and/or the universities principles, one would think the university could and possibly should intervene. Hopefully, the PSA will be talked to concerning this matter, especially as it apparently was large enough to gain media attention (started by an official ND periodical, nonetheless).

I did a little homework and found the university’s rules as pertaining to this issue. Page 157 of du Lac: A Guide to Student Life reads:

“Any student organization wishing to conduct or sponsor a trip must obtain prior approval from the Director of Student Activities for Programming or the director’s designee.” … “Waiver forms must be obtained in advance from the Student Activities Office.”

nd.edu/~orlh/dulac/duLac.pdf (for the full handbook in pdf format)

So if the Student Activities Office did not approve the trip, then the trip was indeed a violation of the University’s code of conduct as pertaining to student organizations.

 

[JReducation]

I did a little homework and found the university’s rules as pertaining to this issue. Page 157 of du Lac: A Guide to Student Life reads:

“Any student organization wishing to conduct or sponsor a trip must obtain prior approval from the Director of Student Activities for Programming or the director’s designee.” … “Waiver forms must be obtained in advance from the Student Activities Office.”

nd.edu/~orlh/dulac/duLac.pdf (for the full handbook in pdf format)

So if the Student Activities Office did not approve the trip, then the trip was indeed a violation of the University’s code of conduct as pertaining to student organizations.

So we go back to the orignal point. The student misused the university’s name. They have no right to use the university’s name on an activity that is not sanctioned by the university. This requires disciplinary action on the part of the university.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF