Notre Dame presses charges against pro life protestors

[Eliza10]

I jsut saw this thread * and I am shocked and saddened and think that if this is the state of the Church in our country then no wonder Mary weeps.

I am sure that Fr. Jenkins in a hero in the eyes of many, many powerful people - like all of the popular media, and many educated and well-postioned peers, and powerful polititians. I suppose its lonely at the top, and this kind of attention must have vice-like attraction. But what a price he will have to pay for love of this!!! What a price. We should pray for the poor man’s soul! (Even though he must feel he is on top of the world with the kudo’s he’s getting, and our prayers must seem needless and worthless to him.)*

 

[diggerdomer]

If you’re talking about the honorary degrees, yes.

Not really. Unless you were able to cover the entire ND campus. It is possible for you to have missed things while there.

So you were the exception to what was going on there. That does not mean that ND was treating people with equality. Just because you dodged a bullet does not mean that bullets were not flying.

Number of pro-Obama types arrested: Zero
Number of pro-Lifers arrested: Lots

Wrong opinion, wrong location = wrong treatment by ND.

ND practices viewpoint discrimination, and they enforced the law unjustly.

You once again miss the entire point of my eyewitness account.

I -and the people I was with- were not the exception. Please…do you understand? NOT THE EXCEPTION.

The exceptions were those provocative, extremist, and even anti-Catholics who chose to consciously confront civil law and get their names and pictures in the media.

Were you there?

 

[diggerdomer]

Number of pro-Obama types arrested: Zero
Number of pro-Lifers arrested: Lots

Once again, brilliant logic.

Let’s apply your same standards to the hearing for the nominated Justice to the Supreme Court.

Number of pro-Choice types arrested: Zero
Number of pro-Lifers arrested: More than zero.

So, according to your logic (which I consider nonsense) the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal Judiciary system is pro-Abortion.

Do you agree?

 

[diggerdomer]

I jsut saw this thread * and I am shocked and saddened and think that if this is the state of the Church in our country then no wonder Mary weeps.

I am sure that Fr. Jenkins in a hero in the eyes of many, many powerful people - like all of the popular media, and many educated and well-postioned peers, and powerful polititians. I suppose its lonely at the top, and this kind of attention must have vice-like attraction. But what a price he will have to pay for love of this!!! What a price. We should pray for the poor man’s soul! (Even though he must feel he is on top of the world with the kudo’s he’s getting, and our prayers must seem needless and worthless to him.)*
It would probably be more helpful to all here is you would do us the courtesy of reading the entire thread, then, rather than just painting some of us with your uninformed disapproval.

 

[imperial]

I have been following this thread hoping to find news of how the trials are turning out. I was also wondering whether Father Weslin had been injured in what seemed the brutality of his arrest. It didn’t seem as though his arms would bend as the ND “security” people forced them to, after wrestling him to the ground for no apparent reason. (Granted, ND “security” were the only amateurs involved; but they were amateurish enough to make up for the rest.)

Here are some things I found:
aipnews.com/talk/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=4651&posts=2
“Father Weslin has been arrested numerous times for blocking abortion clinics all over the country. He has had both arms ripped out of socket, beaten beyond recognition, handcuffed and dragged downstairs with the skin peeled off his face from the steps and sprayed with tainted urine, all done by civil authorities. Read his book, “The Gathering of the Lambs”, published by Queen of Angels, it’s very interesting.”
[So I guess I was right about his limited arm motion.]

Thank you for the post red wolf, interesting reading, what a living saint Father Weslin is.
God Bless him indeed, his rewards will be great in heaven.
Diggdomer why are you so mean spirited towards other fellow catholics?
Every one is entitled to their opinion; catholic pro- lifers follow the teaching of the church. God loves his creation even those tiny little babies in the womb have souls.

 

[elts1956]

Once again, brilliant logic.

Let’s apply your same standards to the hearing for the nominated Justice to the Supreme Court.

Number of pro-Choice types arrested: Zero
Number of pro-Lifers arrested: More than zero.

So, according to your logic (which I consider nonsense) the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal Judiciary system is pro-Abortion.

Do you agree?

Not yet, but they soon will be with Sotemeyer.

 

[BobCatholic]

Once again, brilliant logic.

Let’s apply your same standards to the hearing for the nominated Justice to the Supreme Court.

Number of pro-Choice types arrested: Zero
Number of pro-Lifers arrested: More than zero.

So, according to your logic (which I consider nonsense) the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal Judiciary system is pro-Abortion.

Do you agree?

The term pro-choice is a lie. They don’t care about the choice for the taxpayer, the father, and the unborn child. If they were truly pro-choice, they’d give the others a choice.

And using your reasoning, my logic would still stand. We are dealing with a left wing dominated government, run by left wingers hell bent on imposing the culture of death on the rest of America. Roe V Wade and all of the other culture of death promoting federal court rulings took place where? U.S. Supreme Court and Federal Judiciary system. How are they NOT pro-abortion when they’re the ones putting forward the very pro-abortion rulings that the majority of Americans oppose?

 

[BobCatholic]

So it wasn’t as if cops were milling about the campus attempting to find pro-lifers stepping out of line so that they could be arrested.

I think you did not get my point at all.

My point was this: ND practices viewpoint discrimination. The police purposely did not arrest pro-Obama types who were trespassing - because those types COULD not trespass. They had free reign and could go anywhere they wanted.

The police don’t have to search out pro-lifers who were trespassing. They should have arrested ALL trespassers - not just the ones with the “wrong” opinion. So, either ALL “trespassers” are arrested, or NO “trespassers” arrested. Nothing in between here. It is simple! If the pro-Obama types had free reign, so should have the Pro-lifers.

And since ND refuses to drop the charges against the pro-lifers, ND risks civil liability when civil rights lawsuits will be filed against them. And I hope the pro-lifers nail ND to the wall for that. Maybe that will the crack in the wall that could be used to stop the viewpoint discrimination which is epidemic among campuses around the world.

Equal enforcement of the law. What a radical concept!

Interesting how you’ve declared ND innocent - and the pro-Obama types innocent (solely because of the lack of arrests!) while pronouncing pro-lifers who got arrested as guilty.

News flash: Leftists who take over a university routinely practice viewpoint discrimination - regardless which university. ND was NOT an aberration, but rather the most famous example of how it is done. Why don’t you research how viewpoint discrimination is the NORM on campuses around the world where leftists took over the campus. Research speech codes for example. indoctrinate-u.com/ - shows how Universities are being used to indoctrinate left wing doctrine into young minds - only one way of thinking is allowed on college campuses where leftists dominate. I could go on posting more proof of this fact of life. But I’ll ask you to do the research.

Just maybe, you’ll understand where I’m coming from if you can see this point. Until then, I think you’re just talking past me and refusing to understand where I’m coming from, because you wish to defend ND’s image, without understanding that it is doing wrong.

 

[Rach620]

I think you did not get my point at all.

…

Just maybe, you’ll understand where I’m coming from if you can see this point. Until then, I think you’re just talking past me and refusing to understand where I’m coming from, because you wish to defend ND’s image, without understanding that it is doing wrong.

No, I’ve heard your point loud and clear. I just think that you are missing the point of the whole controversy. You’ve picked out one purported incident that has very little evidence to back it up and blown it out of proportion–to the point where you are now “nailing ND to the wall” on viewpoint discrimination.

It is absurd to those of us who were actually ON Notre Dame’s campus that weekend to say that of all things the University was exercising “viewpoint discrimination”–since thousands of pro-lifers were allowed to gather on campus during a University event and hold the demonstrations that we did. Everyone who I encountered who participated in the ND Response activities were astonished by the accomodations that the University made FOR pro-life people to voice their beliefs and criticize the University, on campus.

It would have been entirely within the rights of Notre Dame to refuse to allow the on campus protests it did (both before and during Commencement weekend), as it was quite disruptive to the graduation festivities and required that the organizers of Commencement take into account an extra couple thousand people on campus that weekend. They could have simply said that security concerns for the safety of the President would not allow us to invite outside protesters to join us. But no, they gave ND Response great latitude, to invite pretty much any pro-lifer of good will to come onto campus with a guarantee that they would not be bothered.

The only pro-lifers who were bothered were those who trespassed. They trespassed KNOWING they would be arrested, and were adequately warned to turn away before arrests were made. Arrests were not made at the huge ND Response protest held on campus; they were instead made at the Main Gate of campus, and at one or two of the security checkpoints near the JACC. Arrests were made for disobeying the police–police who were acting justly and doing their jobs to keep civil order on campus and to protect the president of the United States. There were plenty of ways for pro-lifers to very loudly state their opposition to what was going on at ND and to pray for President Obama’s conversion and Notre Dame’s return to Catholic orthodoxy. That a select few chose to ignore the options available to them and purposefully get themselves arrested doesn’t all of a sudden make ND guilty of viewpoint discrimination. It makes them guilty of criminal trespass.

There is simply no proof that pro-Obama demonstrators were allowed to run willy-nilly all over campus. And of all of the things of significance that occurred on campus that weekend, focusing on something that no credible source even reports as having taken place is absurd. “Viewpoint discrimination,” while it does occur on quite a few campuses in this country, isn’t the problem at Notre Dame. As someone who has been at ND for years and who has been engaged in the struggles there and sought to understand them, I can tell you that ND is not as secularized or leftist as many say it is. Not all has been lost at Notre Dame, and understanding that is the key to beginning to recover what we can of ND’s Catholic identity.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, I’ve heard your point loud and clear. I just think that you are missing the point of the whole controversy. You’ve picked out one purported incident that has very little evidence to back it up and blown it out of proportion–to the point where you are now “nailing ND to the wall” on viewpoint discrimination.

ONE incident? There were MANY arrests of pro-lifers being arrested.

It is absurd to those of us who were actually ON Notre Dame’s campus that weekend to say that of all things the University was exercising “viewpoint discrimination”–since thousands of pro-lifers were allowed to gather on campus during a University event and hold the demonstrations that we did. Everyone who I encountered who participated in the ND Response activities were astonished by the accomodations that the University made FOR pro-life people to voice their beliefs and criticize the University, on campus.

Yes, you guys jumped through the permitting process hoops set before you by the administration. Thus you were OK.

Wast he other side required to do the same? You’ve made the claim that permits were required for EVERYONE posted no proof yet made claims they were for the pro-Obama types.

And here’s the rub: If you DO manage to prove me wrong on this particular point (by showing me proof that pro-Obama types were also required to have permits), ND is in deep legal-doo-doo for that proves that the permitting process was just a sham and used as an excuse to arrest pro-lifers and enforce the law unjustly anyway.

The only pro-lifers who were bothered were those who trespassed.

And there was no possible way for pro-Obama types to “trespass” as they had full reign on campus. Only pro-lifers could “trespass”

There is simply no proof that pro-Obama demonstrators were allowed to run willy-nilly all over campus.

No, proof? I guess eyewitness testimonies and news articles are not proof then. The same proof you are trying to give me to prove your point. Stalemate.

“Viewpoint discrimination,” while it does occur on quite a few campuses in this country, isn’t the problem at Notre Dame. As someone who has been at ND for years and who has been engaged in the struggles there and sought to understand them, I can tell you that ND is not as secularized or leftist as many say it is.

I have trouble believing that seeing how the administration behaves. As far as I’m concerned, I see no difference between ND and other secular universities. Secular universities dominated by leftists practice their viewpoint discrimination by giving people F’s on essays defending the culture of life, kicking out students who have the wrong opinion, denying formation of clubs which do not have the “correct” opinions - but ND takes the cake by actually going beyond those ways by having people with the “wrong” opinion jump through a permitting process and arresting them if they don’t have “permission”.

The law was enforced unjustly and unfairly. Something you won’t admit.

ND should drop the charges to begin the healing process. Something the leftist dominated administration won’t do.

 

[Rach620]

ONE incident? There were MANY arrests of pro-lifers being arrested.

I was referring to the one incident you keep citing, of one pro-life woman in the NDFCU parking lot, where she was arrested but supposedly pro-Obama people were not.

Are you arguing that the arrests for criminal trespass were also themselves unjust?

Yes, you guys jumped through the permitting process hoops set before you by the administration. Thus you were OK.

Those “hoops” are standard for ANY organized activity on campus. We chose to pursue the permitting process because we knew the regulations in duLac stated that ANY organized protests on campus had to receive permits, and we knew of the historical enforcement of this regulation. The permitting process wasn’t invented for this occasion, but is the long-standing policy at ND. We wanted to ensure that our demonstrations, as prayerful, peaceful, and impactful as we hoped they would be, would occur without any sort of interference.

Wast he other side required to do the same? You’ve made the claim that permits were required for EVERYONE posted no proof yet made claims they were for the pro-Obama types.

As far as I know, there simply weren’t any public, student-led, pro-Obama demonstrations planned for that weekend. Thus, there was no event for which students had to seek permit permissions. Simply put, the pro-Obama students were in the JACC for Commencement, or in one of several areas on campus watching the proceedings on closed circuit TV. They weren’t holding demonstrations like ND Response was.

That is, all except for the group which supposedly gathered along Douglas Rd, according to that one report. As I’ve heard no other reports of that gathering or of what happened, I tend to think that it was exaggerated by that pro-life news source. Until it’s corroborated by some other report or evidence, I tend to dismiss it altogether.

Don’t you think the media would have jumped all over the welcoming lines of people along the president’s motorcade route that you are suggesting? I drove along those streets on Commencement day, and they were empty of bystanders, since everyone knew it was ND property and that they couldn’t congregate there. I am wondering where the hordes of pro-Obama demonstrators that one article cites and which you believe was present came from.

And there was no possible way for pro-Obama types to “trespass” as they had full reign on campus. Only pro-lifers could “trespass”

You are making this up. “Full reign on campus”? Were you there?

No, proof? I guess eyewitness testimonies and news articles are not proof then. The same proof you are trying to give me to prove your point. Stalemate.

One article on lifesitenews says that the husband of a pro-life woman who was arrested “saw” pro-Obama demonstrators. Forgive me if I don’t accept that as conclusive or objective proof that these people were, in fact, there. The burden of proof is on you to prove that these organized protests took place, since you are suggesting that they were given “free reign” of campus.

I have trouble believing that seeing how the administration behaves. As far as I’m concerned, I see no difference between ND and other secular universities. Secular universities dominated by leftists practice their viewpoint discrimination by giving people F’s on essays defending the culture of life, kicking out students who have the wrong opinion, denying formation of clubs which do not have the “correct” opinions

None of these things occur at ND. A pro-life student at ND is not going to encounter the unfriendly intellectual environment at ND that they would at other universities. The problem with ND is that it is a Catholic school that does not take its Catholic mission seriously enough–it doesn’t take the issue of defending human life, inside and outside of the classroom, in political life, etc., seriously enough, **not **that it finds this unimportant altogether.

• but ND takes the cake by actually going beyond those ways by having people with the “wrong” opinion jump through a permitting process and arresting them if they don’t have “permission”.

Again, you are misrepresenting the facts.

1. ANY on-campus student-led demonstrations must obtain permission.
2. Arrests were ONLY made when people knowingly and intentionally trespassed and knowingly and intentionally disobeyed the police.

ND should drop the charges to begin the healing process.

I agree. But they are well within their legal rights NOT to drop charges.

 

[otjm]

Red Wolf;5487947:

Diggdomer

why are you so mean spirited towards other fellow catholics?
Every one is entitled to their opinion; catholic pro- lifers follow the teaching of the church. God loves his creation even those tiny little babies in the womb have souls.People have opinions; some are based on facts; others are based on conjecture. Diggdomer was actually at ND during the graduation exercises, and has been in a running dispute concerning what actually happened there. The prime poster disputing what happened is founding their opinion on reports, some of which appear to be possibly biased and suspect; and the opposing poster is taking positions that lack not only logic, but also fail to acknowledge a goodly bit of what is reported; in short, the opposing poster chooses to ignore all facts which call into question the poster’s opinions.

what you are calling mean-spirited is more frustration by one person who was actually there and actually saw what happened, with another person who insists they know more when a) they were not there; b) they read rerports with preconceived notions, and c) they don’t listen any too well.

It is not an issue of Catholics following the teaching of the Church; it is a question of what actually happened at ND, why, and whether it should or should not have happened.

There were people coming to ND who were neither students nor related in any way to students, and they were coming to make a scene. They were coming to get themselves into the media spotlight and they were defiant of rules and regulations that ND had in place. That is what Diggdomer is responding to.

 

[imperial]

imperial;5489277:

People have opinions; some are based on facts; others are based on conjecture. Diggdomer was actually at ND during the graduation exercises, and has been in a running dispute concerning what actually happened there. The prime poster disputing what happened is founding their opinion on reports, some of which appear to be possibly biased and suspect; and the opposing poster is taking positions that lack not only logic, but also fail to acknowledge a goodly bit of what is reported; in short, the opposing poster chooses to ignore all facts which call into question the poster’s opinions.

what you are calling mean-spirited is more frustration by one person who was actually there and actually saw what happened, with another person who insists they know more when a) they were not there; b) they read rerports with preconceived notions, and c) they don’t listen any too well.

It is not an issue of Catholics following the teaching of the Church; it is a question of what actually happened at ND, why, and whether it should or should not have happened.

There were people coming to ND who were neither students nor related in any way to students, and they were coming to make a scene. They were coming to get themselves into the media spotlight and they were defiant of rules and regulations that ND had in place. That is what Diggdomer is responding to.

Ok facts.
Fact 1, Nd honored a pro abortionist,
Fact 2, The majority were cheering and clapping for a pro abortionist
Fact 3, Nd knew this will cause controversy
Fact 4, Nd went against the Catholic Church by honoring a pro abortionist
Fact 5, Father Wislen arrested for having in possession weapons of mass destruction [the rosary] Destruction against the devil
Fact 6, Division
Fact 7, There was some VERY holy priest protesting NOW that’s telling us something is wrong
Fact 8, No dialogue @ all
Fact 9, Abortion intrinsic Evil
Fact 10,The Pope presented obama a booklet; on Bioethics, perhaps he knew what happened @ ND

I’m sure there are other facts I have missed, at the end of the day, it boils down to a protest that all Christian’s should defend “babies being killed in the womb”. :dts:

I’m sorry, but the actions of ND have borne nothing but bad fruit, :bighanky:
what has obama done to reduce abortions since he was given an honorary degree @ Nd?
Nd has lost the plot; they are deaf to Gods word. Jesus said turn the other cheek,
Even though the protesters were defending a baby’s right to live, Nd deemed them as criminals, real bad people, where is the “turning of the cheek”, forgive one another,
Are they dropping those ridicules charges? Is Nd turning the other cheek? shaw:
Are they only selective?
The two hands of ND
On one hand ‘oh it doesn’t matter if obama is pro death lets over look that’.
On the other “what Christians are protesting against the killing of babies, no way don’t over look that, arrest them have them charged lock them up.

                   Actions speak louder than words

 

[otjm]

Ok facts.
Fact 1, Nd honored a pro abortionist,
Fact 2, The majority were cheering and clapping for a pro abortionist

The majority what? The majority of students graduating? The majority of guests attending the graduation? ND honored the President of the United States. We can all agree he is the most pro-abortion president we have had. However, he is not a single issue President; he is President of the US and all the issues that attende the US. You have no way, short of taking a poll of those attending the ceremony, to know whether any or all or some of those attending support abortion policies or not; support radical changes to abortions making them more available, making them less available, or outlawing them entirely. You further have no way of knowing how many people there were pro-life and simply sucking it up because, like him or not, it was their graduation; nor how many may disagree or even despise his position on abortion but strongly favor his policies on a) the war in Iraq; b) economics; c) help for the poor; d) enviornmental issues… the list goes on.

No one in this thread supports the President’s position on abortion, as far as I can tell.

No one in this thread, as far as I can tell, supports Jenkins decision to invite the President. So your numjbers 3 & 4 are also a given - you are not telling any of us what we have not already figured out.

We already got that.
imperial;5495049Fact 5:

Destruction against the devil

There are no facts anywhere to substantiate your opinion. He was arrested because he chose to act contrary to a policy already set by ND before he showed up, and did not comply with those policies. The rosary had nothing to do with his arrest, and I suspect you already know that.

Whether or not he is very holy is between him and Christ. That he was arrested for trespass and/or other charges is pretty much a given. It would appear that he chose to not follow the several thousand pro-life protesters who were complying with the rules that ND set before the graduation ceremony. The good priest may believe in his heart of hearts that getting arrested is going to convince some woman to not have an abortion. There is a term for that; it is called delusional. Being delusional has nothing to do with whether or not someone is holy. It has to do with having common sense or not. Lacking common sense is not a moral issue.

No one here would disagree that we have a duty to be actively pro-life. The Church does not support breaking laws to do so; the Church supports non-violent lawful protests. Breaking laws at ND was done by a very small minority, primarily if not completely non-students, who were attempting to use the appearance of the President to gain access to national media by getting themselves arrested. They could have joined the thousands of others who peacefully protested, by attending the Mass said, the rosary said, and the other activites that were held in peaceful legal protest agains Obama. They - the very few - chose to not participate; they wanted the limelight.

what has obama done to reduce abortions since he was given an honorary degree @ Nd?
Nd has lost the plot; they are deaf to Gods word.
Even though the protesters were defending a baby’s right to live, Nd deemed them as criminals, real bad people, where is the “turning of the cheek”, forgive one another,
Are they dropping those ridicules charges? Is Nd turning the other cheek? shaw:
Are they only selective?

ND did not deem them criminals. They intentionally violated the rules of ND in order to get the media to focus on themselves, and to create an image of psuedo-martyrs. And you have bought into their little street theater lock, stock and barrel.

Why didn’t they go to the Mass instead of getting themselve arrested?

Why didn’t they attend the rosary instead of violating the rules?

It is very simple - they were not interested in the Mass; they were not interested in the rosary; they were simply interested in making a scene. And they did so by violating criminal laws. And you want me to weep for them?

Not. I would gladly sit on a jury and vote to convict if the facts showed beyond a reasonable doubt that they had violated the laws they are charged with. I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for street theater protesters. And that is not a contradiction with my opinions of either Obama or Jenkins. Obama scares the hell out of me, and Jenkins has sold his birthright for a bowl of porridge. Neither fact justifies the few who chose to go to ND and violate their policies.

We have protesters out here in Oregon. We follow the law. Getting arrested simply side-tracks the issue. If you think that those getting arrested convinced one woman to not have an abortion, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you. That simply has not happened.

 

[Red_Wolf]

imperial: Your post #341. Thank you for your kind words.

otjm: Your post #348. How did you get your quote of post #341(by imperial) to come up attributed to me, linked to my post #335? These forum techniques fascinate me, almost enough to learn some of them. I’d only manage something like that by accident.

This thread is proof that ND is dividing Catholics. Isn’t anyone interested in talking about uniting Catholics? (post 336) Our Holy Father has asked us to pray that we be united in love. Isn’t anyone interested in praying by action?

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes, you guys jumped through the permitting process hoops set before you by the administration. Thus you were OK.

Hello? Do you read anything others post except what you disagree with?

I’ve told you numerous times: I was there, I went on campus, I had no problems, I didn’t have to do anything special. I simply walked on to campus. No hoops. I am pro-life.

Is there something you don’t understand here? Why do you keep referring to “hoops”? Again, I ask: were you there???

We had no permits. No permissions. We walked on to campus just as we could today, next year, last year, etc.

Please…are you reading what some of us are saying?

The law was enforced unjustly and unfairly. Something you won’t admit.

I was there. I witnessed no such thing.

What more valid basis do you have to keep claiming this?

 

[diggerdomer]

Ok facts.
Fact 1, Nd honored a pro abortionist,

Your terms. Not his or Notre Dame’s or the Church’s. ND honored who they say they honored: the President of the U.S. (who is also the first black President).

Fact 2, The majority were cheering and clapping for a pro abortionist

No, the majority were cheering and clapping for the President of the U.S., and the first black President.

Fact 3, Nd knew this will cause controversy

So? Because something causes controversy it should not be done? Regardless, there was controversy every time a President gave the address and got an honorary degree at Notre Dame…no surprise that it happened again this time.

Fact 4, Nd went against the Catholic Church by honoring a pro abortionist

They honored the President of the U.S., as they have routinely done for decades (regardless of political party and effect on the abortion issue).

Fact 5, Father Wislen arrested for having in possession weapons of mass destruction [the rosary] Destruction against the devil

I’m sorry…WHAT? I have no idea what you mean. Are you seriously saying he was arrested because he had a rosary? Seriously? Please…give us facts!

Fact 6, Division

Division is a fact. Sadly, yes. Ok. So your point is…?

Fact 7, There was some VERY holy priest protesting NOW that’s telling us something is wrong

There were also some very holy priests and laity supporting. Now that is telling us something too. Hmmmm.

Fact 8, No dialogue @ all

Really? You mean, speaking and listening is not dialogue? Did you watch the commencement exercises? I did. It sure seemed to me that everyone I saw on camera was listening to the speakers. Was it a debate? No. Of course not…it’s a University Commencement exercise!

Fact 9, Abortion intrinsic Evil

Yes. No kidding. I don’t think anyone on this thread has argued contrary? Or did I miss something?

Fact 10,The Pope presented obama a booklet; on Bioethics, perhaps he knew what happened @ ND

I sure hope he did! But of course, this fact is after the events so pretty tangential to the Thread.

 

[BobCatholic]

Don’t you think the media would have jumped all over the welcoming lines of people along the president’s motorcade route that you are suggesting?

The leftist dominated media pretty much did very little reporting on this. The conservative media made stories on it - google news shows over 500 hits - mainly conservative bloggers and media outlets (wnd, townhall, etc.)

Even if there were a lot of people along the motorcade route cheering him on, the MSM was absent.

You are making this up. “Full reign on campus”? Were you there?

I’m quoting the article from lifesitenews.

One article on lifesitenews says that the husband of a pro-life woman who was arrested “saw” pro-Obama demonstrators. Forgive me if I don’t accept that as conclusive or objective proof that these people were, in fact, there. The burden of proof is on you to prove that these organized protests took place, since you are suggesting that they were given “free reign” of campus.

Well, we’re at an impasse. I’m citing eyewitness accounts saying one thing, you cite eyewitness acounts saying the other.

Unless new information comes forward from the trials, all we are doing is going around in circles rehashing over and over.

I still maintain that ND practices viewpoint discrimination and unless new proof comes out, my mind won’t change on this. ND is doing what any other leftist dominated university does.

 

[diggerdomer]

I’m quoting the article from lifesitenews.

So you will admit, finally, you weren’t there? You are relying on some information from the Internet?

And of course we all now how reliable and objective Internet sources can be.

 

[otjm]

otjm: Your post #348. How did you get your quote of post #341(by imperial) to come up attributed to me, linked to my post #335? These forum techniques fascinate me, almost enough to learn some of them. I’d only manage something like that by accident.

Beats the daylights out of me, unless imperial linked to you and I picked it up.

This thread is proof that ND is dividing Catholics. Isn’t anyone interested in talking about uniting Catholics? (post 336) Our Holy Father has asked us to pray that we be united in love. Isn’t anyone interested in praying by action?

I am not entirely convinced that ND is the cause of the dividion. I don’t recall (without reading each post again) that there is anyone on this thread that is not pro-life; further, I don’t think anyone on this thread is praising ND for inviting Obama. There are some on this thread who seem to think that ND and/or its administration and/or Father Jenkins is/are pro-abortion, and they are basing it on the fact that out of some 2000 to 3000 protesters against Obama showing, that 20 to maybe as many as 40 were arrested.

We all agree with the bishops’ position, published by them, that individuals who are seriously at odds with basic, fundamental moral issues held by the Catholic Church should not be given honors. And we all agree that Father Jenkins openly, notoriously and intentionally violated that. Where we seem to part company is whether a) a private institution has a right to require certain behavior of people, not part of that institution, who come on campus, and b) when certain people do come on campus and violate the rules and regulations, whether it is legal to require them to leave or be arrested for trespass. There seem to be a few who can’t see their way through the issue of legal vs. illegal protest, and seem to think that ND is somehow morally lacking when they enforce their trespass rules. Those who seem to think so seem unable to distinguish between lawful and unlawful behavior, and seem to say that any reaction to unlawful behavior proves that some (or many or all) at ND are therefore pro-abortion. It would appear that there is a lack of basic knowledge of logic and proof. And that seems to be the cause of the division.