Novel retort that stumped me

[LaSalle]

So I was talking to a friend who believes in OSAS about how he* could* lose his salvation. I showed him all the verses where Jesus and the Apostles warned that they could lose their salvation. He replied that for all those occasions where the believers would ‘die’ ‘be cast out’ ‘forfeit their lives’ etc did not mean that their salvation would be lost.

He said -

The death here refers to bodily death and not losing ones salvation. As a case in point, read the story of Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-10 who lied to the Holy Spirit. God judged them for this and both were killed.

Another sin that is associated with death is found in 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 where it is reported that a man was having sexual relations with his father’s wife.

“It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2 And you have become arrogant, and have not mourned instead, in order that the one who had done this deed might be removed from your midst. 3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus,” (1 Cor. 5:1-5).

I gotta say … that stumped me.

 

[TimothyH]

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

-Tim-

 

[Bookcat]

Important word there:

“may”

Such is the hope that they will through such remedy --return to Christ and thus to salvation.

But with any “may” there can be a “may not” too…

One has cancer treatment so that though ones body may feel “very sick” from the treatment – they may be able to survive the cancer…they may be able to live.

That is the hope.

And such was the hope in the early Church community there…

But as Paul tells us elsewhere --those who do gravely sinful things do not enter the kingdom of heaven…and was writing to Christians.

Of course by the grace of God they can repent and be restored to Christ by grace --such is the hope.

The reason they are doing such and such in regards to the man in question is in the hope that he will repent etc. That he “may” be saved…

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The punishment of not only being cast out of the community of Church but to Satan is intended to convert the man (bring him to repentance) so as to save His soul. Notice that the verse says " that his spirit** may** be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," not WILL be saved but MAY be saved. It depends on if the sinner repents and comes back to the Lord. You would have to ask him if he thinks mortal sin is possible-- I think that they do not believe that there is such a sin that could severe us from God’s friendship. However 1 John 5:16-17 delineates between mortal and venial sin saying “There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.” We believe that if we sin mortally that we turn our back on God. A mortal sin is that which is a grave matter, done with full knowledge and complete consent. I think (but am not 100% sure) that those who believe in OSAS believe that once a soul “truly” takes Jesus as Lord and Savior that they cannot commit such a sin because the Holy Spirit will not let them. If that is what they believe, then it is a lie because it undermines free will. But check on that…

Even St. Paul did not assume that he would be saved saying in 1 Corinthians 9 23-27.

All this I do for the sake of the gospel, so that I too may have a share in it. 24 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win. 25 Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.26Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it,* for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.*

Another scripture that is helpful with the OSAS argument is 2 Peter 2:20-21

For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of [our] Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

It is saying here that if a person comes to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and then revert back to where they were than they are in a WORSE position than when they did not know Jesus. Why? Because they are accountable for having turned their back on Him… they cannot claim ignorance on the day of their judgment.

Oh, and there is also the running theme in Revelation 2, about perseverance until the end. All the rewards that Jesus offers are for those who persevere to the end.

Revelation 2:4-5

4 Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first.
5 Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Rev 2:10

Remain faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Rev 2:25-26
25 except that you must hold fast to what you have until I come.
26 “To the victor,* who keeps to my ways* until the end,
I will give authority over the nations.

You might want to ask your friend this. Scripture is filled and filled again with warnings about repenting, about finishing to the end, about what will happen to the man who does not repent. And many, if not all, of these warnings were written to BELIEVERS. They were letters to existing Churches. If OSAS is true, why is the scripture so full of these warnings? If you can’t sin mortally after taking Jesus as your Savior, why are we warned that we must persevere to the end? It doesn’t make sense.

 

[Church_Militant]

He’s got a real problem here because of these passages from Revelation.
Revelation 2:11
He, that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches: He that shall overcome, shall not be hurt by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. In these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ; and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, they shall have their portion in the pool burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Also, he has to deal with Revelation 3:5
He that shall overcome, shall thus be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

To be saved one’s name has to be found in the lamb’s book of life. How can it be blotted out unless it is written there in the first place?

 

[jim1130]

The punishment of not only being cast out of the community of Church but to Satan is intended to convert the man (bring him to repentance) so as to save His soul. Notice that the verse says " that his spirit** may** be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus," not WILL be saved but MAY be saved. It depends on if the sinner repents and comes back to the Lord. You would have to ask him if he thinks mortal sin is possible-- I think that they do not believe that there is such a sin that could severe us from God’s friendship. However 1 John 5:16-17 delineates between mortal and venial sin saying “There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.” We believe that if we sin mortally that we turn our back on God. A mortal sin is that which is a grave matter, done with full knowledge and complete consent. I think (but am not 100% sure) that those who believe in OSAS believe that once a soul “truly” takes Jesus as Lord and Savior that they cannot commit such a sin because the Holy Spirit will not let them. If that is what they believe, then it is a lie because it undermines free will. But check on that…

Even St. Paul did not assume that he would be saved saying in 1 Corinthians 9 23-27.

Another scripture that is helpful with the OSAS argument is 2 Peter 2:20-21

It is saying here that if a person comes to the knowledge of Jesus Christ and then revert back to where they were than they are in a WORSE position than when they did not know Jesus. Why? Because they are accountable for having turned their back on Him… they cannot claim ignorance on the day of their judgment.

Oh, and there is also the running theme in Revelation 2, about perseverance until the end. All the rewards that Jesus offers are for those who persevere to the end.

You might want to ask your friend this. Scripture is filled and filled again with warnings about repenting, about finishing to the end, about what will happen to the man who does not repent. And many, if not all, of these warnings were written to BELIEVERS. They were letters to existing Churches. If OSAS is true, why is the scripture so full of these warnings? If you can’t sin mortally after taking Jesus as your Savior, why are we warned that we must persevere to the end? It doesn’t make sense.

Philippians 2:12 - “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” I have always interpreted this as “no guarantees.”

As I understand, and correct me if I am wrong (not that anyone is shy about doing that on CA ), the reason for Purgatory is the cleansing of sins because, although we may be saved, we are not pure. And Purgatory is the cleansing that we must go through so that we may stand before God.

 

[Cryptic1]

Christians appear to be assured of their salvation and stand on that, believing that they are “saved”. On the flip side, how are catholics assured of their salvation? by the act of baptism? by going to church on sunday? What is that “thing” that catholics stand on that assures them that they will gain eternal salvation?

 

[Dies_Irae_1]

Christians appear to be assured of their salvation and stand on that, believing that they are “saved”. On the flip side, how are catholics assured of their salvation? by the act of baptism? by going to church on sunday? What is that “thing” that catholics stand on that assures them that they will gain eternal salvation?

Nothing. We have no 100% assurance of salvation. We do our best to follow Christ and His commandments and receive the sacraments, especially Confession so that we may live in sanctifying grace.

 

[Cryptic1]

Nothing. We have no 100% assurance of salvation. We do our best to follow Christ and His commandments and receive the sacraments, especially Confession so that we may live in sanctifying grace.

At least christians have some kind of assurance. Isn’t it a little scary to think that you “might” or “might not” make it? We’re talking eternity here. If your life were to be taken tonight, where do you think you would end up? Seriously. And if so, what are you basing this on?

 

[jim1130]

Christians appear to be assured of their salvation and stand on that, believing that they are “saved”. On the flip side, how are catholics assured of their salvation? by the act of baptism? by going to church on sunday? What is that “thing” that catholics stand on that assures them that they will gain eternal salvation?

I thought the only guarantees were death and taxes?

 

[Cryptic1]

I thought the only guarantees were death and taxes?

In this temporal world we live in-yes. I’m talking about our eternal destiny here. Doesn’t that count for something?

There’s a saying that the only people without stress are those who have died or passed on. If christianity tells us that life continues even after death, what must we do to achieve this? I’m looking for something concete here, nothing ethereal please.

 

[jim1130]

In this temporal world we live in-yes. I’m talking about our eternal destiny here. Doesn’t that count for something?

There’s a saying that the only people without stress are those who have died or passed on. If christianity tells us that life continues even after death, what must we do to achieve this? I’m looking for something concete here, nothing ethereal please.

This is what I posted in # 6 - Philippians 2:12 - “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” I have always interpreted this as “no guarantees.”

Who is to say who goes to heaven and who does not? Am I a worthy judge of myself? Are you a worthy judge of yourself?

 

[pnewton]

At least christians have some kind of assurance. Isn’t it a little scary to think that you “might” or “might not” make it? We’re talking eternity here. If your life were to be taken tonight, where do you think you would end up? Seriously. And if so, what are you basing this on?

I think we may not be so far apart. A Catholic can know “if he were to die right now.” We can have that level of assurance as mortal sin is an act of the will. The old, “if you were to die tonight” should be replaced by the infinitely more likely, “if you die twenty years from now” question. Catholics do not believe free-will ceases in this life. We can still choose to totally abandon God.

The OSAS question is ultimately one of free will. Is the will of Man fixed, like the angels, that once we choose salvation we always will? Or is it not fixed where with time we may choose later to reject Jesus, or embrace Him?

 

[Cryptic1]

This is what I posted in # 6 - Philippians 2:12 - “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” I have always interpreted this as “no guarantees.”

Who is to say who goes to heaven and who does not? Am I a worthy judge of myself? Are you a worthy judge of yourself?

I am not judging anyone. I have posted that very same quote myself and stand on it. However, do you think most people work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If you were to ask your fellow catholics if they are working out their own salvation in that manner, what would they answer?

 

[pnewton]

I am not judging anyone. I have posted that very same quote myself and stand on it. However, do you think most people work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If you were to ask your fellow catholics if they are working out their own salvation in that manner, what would they answer?

Not all. Of course even the rather solid church at Philippi still needed exhortation on this, didn’t they. Yet I know many God Catholics that do this very well, that is, continue to strive for holiness with a solid sense of fear of the Lord.

 

[Ophelia23]

At least christians have some kind of assurance. Isn’t it a little scary to think that you “might” or “might not” make it? We’re talking eternity here. If your life were to be taken tonight, where do you think you would end up? Seriously. And if so, what are you basing this on?

What good is this assurance if it is false? E can not answer with certainty if we are going to heaven or not, because we are not the judge of that. And I dare not even begin to assume that I know all that God knows. We do our best to live well, to regularly partake in the sacraments, especially the Eucharist and Reconciliation, with faith and hope. There is no assumption that one is saved. The Catholic life requires frequent self-examination, self-correction and re-establishment of grace through the sacraments.

 

[jim1130]

I am not judging anyone. I have posted that very same quote myself and stand on it. However, do you think most people work out their salvation with fear and trembling? If you were to ask your fellow catholics if they are working out their own salvation in that manner, what would they answer?

You have already judged yourself because of OSAS: That salvation is yours and cannot be taken away no matter what you do.

Most would answer “yes” because there are no guarantees or assurances of of salvation To think otherwise is a conceit.

And there is the purity issue because sin may not go before God, hence Purgatory (hence the Immaculate Conception). Will you be pure when you die? I do not know you answer, but I can assure you that I will not no matter how hard I try and although I may be forgiven I will still have to answer to sins committed over a lifetime.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

Christians appear to be assured of their salvation and stand on that, believing that they are “saved”. On the flip side, how are catholics assured of their salvation? by the act of baptism? by going to church on sunday? What is that “thing” that catholics stand on that assures them that they will gain eternal salvation?

Christians (of which, Catholics are the first) are assured that Jesus will hold up His end of the bargain. He has accomplished all we need to be saved. But there is one thing that Jesus did not accomplish, and could not, in light of free will. That is our cooperation. This is not assured. This is not guaranteed.

Catholics stand on the teaching that Jesus taught to the Apostles and was subsequently written in the Scripture . It is by God’s grace we are saved, through our faith and not of works. But our faith must be alive in good works or it is dead. We must repent of our sins and walk in His way** to the end of our lives**. It is not a one time alter call/ repentance. It is a lifelong journey.

I would rather be a little scared that I might not make it. Then I would be walking in the footsteps of St. Paul who said we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling. OSAS is not only unbiblical, it is an anti-biblical lie that gives people false assurances. I’d rather stick with the truth as taught by the Church even before the New Testament was written.

 

[jim1130]

Christians (of which, Catholics are the first) are assured that Jesus will hold up His end of the bargain. He has accomplished all we need to be saved. But there is one thing that Jesus did not accomplish, and could not, in light of free will. That is our cooperation. This is not assured. This is not guaranteed.

Catholics stand on the teaching that Jesus taught to the Apostles and was subsequently written in the Scripture . It is by God’s grace we are saved, through our faith and not of works. But our faith must be alive in good works or it is dead. We must repent of our sins and walk in His way** to the end of our lives**. It is not a one time alter call/ repentance. It is a lifelong journey.

I would rather be a little scared that I might not make it. Then I would be walking in the footsteps of St. Paul who said we should work out our salvation in fear and trembling. OSAS is not only unbiblical, it is an anti-biblical lie that gives people false assurances. I’d rather stick with the truth as taught by the Church even before the New Testament was written.

I copied and pasted this from Catholic answers because I believe it provides the best summation:

“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

 

[Robyn_p]

At least christians have some kind of assurance. Isn’t it a little scary to think that you “might” or “might not” make it? We’re talking eternity here. If your life were to be taken tonight, where do you think you would end up? Seriously. And if so, what are you basing this on?

I think I know what you mean, but Catholics take the position of St. Paul in 1 Cor 4:3-5 “But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or any human court. I do not even judge myself. I AM NOT AWARE OF ANYTHING AGAINST ME, BUT I AM NOT THEREBY ACQUITTED. It is The Lord who judges me. Therefore, do not pronounce judgment before the time, before The Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart.”

You see, Catholics aren’t sitting around rocking back and forth saying “Am I going to hell? Am I going to hell???” We do have assurance in the sacraments, especially in the sacrament of Penance. When I hear the words of absolution, I KNOW my sins are forgiven! I feel this amazing peace. But I can’t say I have absolute metaphysical certainty that I will for sure make it to Heaven, when St. Paul didn’t even have that.

All the warnings in the Bible are there not to scare us but to warn us. Matthew 10:22 says “He who endures to the end will be saved.” And Romans 11:22 “Note then the kindness and severity of God. Severity towards those who fell, but kindness towards you. provided you continue in faith, otherwise you too will be cut off.” We have to persevere in Christ. Again, St Paul makes it clear "Therefore, I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after having preached to others, I myself might be disqualified. (I Cor 9:27) “But let him who thinks he stands firm take care not to fall.” (1 Cor 10:12)

Again this doesn’t mean we have no assurance whatsoever, but we take into account all of scripture, and if Jesus and St. Paul and others say we can lose our salvation, I’m gonna listen to them.