Novus Ordo as man centered rite

[pnewton]

You know what?? I’ve been posting on this forum for almost 2 yrs. When I first came to CA., I truly believed that the forum named “Traditional Catholicism” would be a place to discuss Traditional Catholic’s backgrounds, their ages in the context of ‘who is attending the TLM’ &, what their children (or parents) think of this Liturgy, feast days, the rosary, etc.

I have wondered often why the moderators do not offer a forum for those of you who prefer the Novus Ordo.

It is a moderator decision to allow topics like this thread on this forum. It was made clear from the begining that this was not going to be a Traditionalists club. Now there is an option of starting a Traditionalist group if that sort of thing is desired.

If you search the threads, many of the topics concern the current Mass, receiving on the tongue, modern hymns and the like, topics that are not a part of the Tridentine Latin Mass. It can’t be both ways, allowing topics like this (not related to Traditionalism) and then barring all posters who do not attend the TLM.

 

[Timothysis]

The question is: would you post there, or do you like to come to this forum to argue.

I post in many forums. When I find something objectionable, then I object. Is that a problem?

Now, go forward with your “defenses” of the Novus Ordo Mass, even if I’ve not seen anyone attacking it.

The title of this thread is “Novus Ordo as man centered rite.”

If that is not an “attack,” then please tell me what it is.

Remembering that I believe that it’s YOU (generic you) who feels that your Mass is “inferior”.

Totally absurd. Try again.
CradleCath;5778483:

If you don’t feel that way, why are you here “defending” it.

I will defend the Pauline Missal against anyone, be they protestant or catholic, who slanders, distorts and downright lies about what the missal is.

 

[Layman]

Maybe if you paid more attention to what the Pope actually says and does, you’d have less time to scour the net looking up things to work yourself up into a righteous snit over.

I am quite calm, I think.

Interestingly, a search there on ‘Ordinary Form Mass’ throws up ad-orientem Masses with Latin.

"Change, we can believe in."

.

 

[Ockham]

I have wondered often why the moderators do not offer a forum for those of you who prefer the Novus Ordo. The question is: would you post there, or do you like to come to this forum to argue. I for one am SICK of it. So sick…that it’s not worth asking the question re following the Mass with my new Daily Missal. I know that I can figure it out & that from now on, I’ll be sure that the collects, secrets, Epistles & Gospels are marked before I leave for Mass.

No kidding. Consider the over forty page thread on CITH. What do Modernists think they are going to find in a Traditional Catholic chatroom on CITH - that it is wonderful? It would be fitting to have a Novus Ordo forum where all the novelties, abuses, and other personalizations can be discussed so then maybe they wouldn’t come into this forum to debate the liturgical chaos of these past forty years.

 

[pnewton]

No kidding. Consider the over forty page thread on CITH. What do Modernists think they are going to find in a Traditional Catholic chatroom on CITH - that it is wonderful? It would be fitting to have a Novus Ordo forum where all the novelties, abuses, and other personalizations can be discussed so then maybe they wouldn’t come into this forum to debate the liturgical chaos of these past forty years.

I have never been to a Traditional Catholic chatroom personally, I do not know what I would find, but I would suspect CITH would not be well received.

If you are referring to this particular forum, then I would point out that there is a Liturgy and Sacrament forum where reception of communion is often debated.

BTW - I characterization of those that do no join in the liturgy bashing as “Modernists” is inaccurate, unintelligent and uncharitable.

 

[Ockham]

Fail.

Disciplines of the celebration of the liturgy may change, but the same distinct catholic theology and beliefs are still present in the missal itself. Someone posted here that there was a time when catholic churches did not have pews, only chairs for the aged and infirm, and that it was from the protestants that the introduction of pews came into being. Would you suggest that, since pews were introduced into catholic churches for the celebration of the liturgy from protestant influences, that even the Tridentine missal is “protestantized” for allowing such?

I ask again; can you point to anything in the Pauline Missal that is protestant?

Fail? Who are you, my liturgy prof?

The modern Novus Ordo resembles a Lutheran service more than the TLM as was the standard liturgy for centuries. Do you contest the assertion that the NO was made in part for ecumenical reasons? What was Bugnini’s motivation for all the changes in our liturgy? Why is the modern NO very different from the one Bugnini created?

 

[Ockham]

I have never been to a Traditional Catholic chatroom personally, I do not know what I would find, but I would suspect CITH would not be well received.

If you are referring to this particular forum, then I would point out that there is a Liturgy and Sacrament forum where reception of communion is often debated.

?

Check the title of this forum.

You are correct. CITH is not well received among Traditional Catholics. Further, I’ve yet to see a good reason for it from the Modernists.

 

[ncjohn]

You know what?? I’ve been posting on this forum for almost 2 yrs. When I first came to CA., I truly believed that the forum named “Traditional Catholicism” would be a place to discuss Traditional Catholic’s backgrounds, their ages in the context of ‘who is attending the TLM’ &, what their children (or parents) think of this Liturgy, feast days, the rosary, etc.

If that was what this forum really was, you probably wouldn’t hear a word from anyone who isn’t a TLM advocate and attendee. Unfortunately a large proportion of the threads posted here are direct attacks on anything that happened subsequent to Vatican II and/or attacks on anyone who has a preference for something other than the TLM.

We too are sick of the whole thing. Many of us spend a significant amount of time and effort trying to promote a peaceful coexistence, remembering that our primary mission as Catholics is to bring God to this weary world rather than to create the divisions that have been problems going all the way back to the time of St. Paul.

If the main topic of “traditionalists” is going to be complaining about non-traditionalists I think it fair to expect that the non-traditionalists are going to chime in to express their views. Hopefully it can be done charitably, but to be fair there are those on both “sides” who speak in very inflamatory ways, making charity that much more difficult and divsion that much more likely.

The Church herself seems to understand that we should be able to coexist and the Pope has certainly promoted that. Unfortunately there are far too many who seem to think themselves above such peacemaking efforts.

We really need to just stop the bloodletting and the persecution of other members of the Body of Christ. I’m ready to take the pledge. How about you?

Peace,

 

[pnewton]

?

Check the title of this forum.

Check the** purpose** of this forum.

**

Traditional Catholicism

- talk about the Traditional Latin Mass, the Indult, SSPX, sedevacantism**

Now in less I am very mistaken, there is nothing in “talk about” that mandates one take one side or another. There is nothing in the TLM that in involves receiving communion in the hand. The SSPX does not use what is desparagingly called the “Novus Ordo”.

One can always appeal to a change to the moderator. I would love to see these topics banned here and relegated to the Liturgy and Sacrament forum. However, if they are allowed here, they may be discussed here from** all** points of view. It was never stated that this was going to be a Traditionalists Club.

 

[Poetess_Kera]

I don’t see it as man-centered, to be honest.

I’m sorry to say that I have seen videos of clown “masses” and other blatantly disrespectful “masses”, but the Novus Ordo Mass has the potential to be a fervent Mass as well.

Yes, the Latin Mass is beautiful. I’ve seen videos of it as well and I would love to attend one someday. I’m just speaking from experience; the Church I go to has very beautiful Novus Ordo services with no disrespectful content (at least, not that I have seen). It’s all very reverent.

Anyway, back to the original topic, I was reading a chapter in the Catholic Faith Handbook for Youth that I got at RCIA that was explaining the Liturgy and Second Vatican Council reforms. It had a great explanation for the Novus Ordo Mass, in my opinion. This Mass involves the full and active participation of people more than the Latin Mass because it tends to focus more on the Last Supper. Communion in the hand is seen as an acceptable reception because Jesus broke the bread at the Last Supper, passed it around, and said, "Take this, all of you, and eat it." The priest faces the people as Jesus faced his disciples as they were eating and drinking. It’s all about the unity of God’s people.

 

[Cluny]

<<Interestingly, a search there on ‘Ordinary Form Mass’ throws up ad-orientem Masses with Latin. >>

The orientation of the Celebrant in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite is in itself something indifferent.

Apparenetly, it’s also something something indifferent even in the Extraordinary Form because there are official rubrics for the basilican orientation therein.

<<I will defend the Pauline Missal against anyone, be they protestant or catholic, who slanders, distorts and downright lies about what the missal is.>>

A very good point, Tim!

I have nothing against any authorized Liturgy of the Church. I DO object to the attitude shown by people speaking in such away as to imply that the EF is somehow instrinsically superior to the OF (such as saying it’s valid, but the grace isn’t there).

There is a very good discussion of the arguments some people put forth against the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

matt1618.freeyellow.com/novusordo.html

 

[Ockham]

Check the** purpose** of this forum.

---

Now in less I am very mistaken, there is nothing in “talk about” that mandates one take one side or another. There is nothing in the TLM that in involves receiving communion in the hand. The SSPX does not use what is desparagingly called the “Novus Ordo”.

One can always appeal to a change to the moderator. I would love to see these topics banned here and relegated to the Liturgy and Sacrament forum. However, if they are allowed here, they may be discussed here from** all** points of view. It was never stated that this was going to be a Traditionalists Club.

Newt, I usually find your posts well thought out, but I’m confused as to what you are going for here. CITH isn’t permissable in the TLM nor the Church for the vast majority of our history. I don’t know if the SSPX uses the term “Novus Ordo” and quite frankly I don’t care. Why would you want any of these topics banned - censorship? What do you have to hide? Why do you find such a complication with Traditional Catholics chatting in a Traditional Catholic forum? If you don’t like Traditional thought then stay out of the Traditional forum. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

 

[Timothysis]

If you don’t like Traditional thought then stay out of the Traditional forum. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Yet, you seem to imply that us "Novus Ordo Catholics" are not “Traditional,” for reasons that I don’t comprehend. There is no one here saying that there should be more clown, polka, or rock masses, nor is there anyone suggesting that we should take balloons with us to Mass. What I see is that some people prefer one form to the other in their quest to find Christ. Some here (not implying You) act as if people who prefer the OF aren’t somehow “real” Catholics, that “real” Catholics only attend the EF. I hold to everything that the Church teaches and has taught; does that make me “Traditional” even though I prefer the OF?

 

[estesbob]

Newt, I usually find your posts well thought out, but I’m confused as to what you are going for here. CITH isn’t permissable in the TLM nor the Church for the vast majority of our history. I don’t know if the SSPX uses the term “Novus Ordo” and quite frankly I don’t care. Why would you want any of these topics banned - censorship? What do you have to hide? Why do you find such a complication with Traditional Catholics chatting in a Traditional Catholic forum? If you don’t like Traditional thought then stay out of the Traditional forum. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I am a traditional catholic who likes both the OF and CITH. Why should I have to accept your definition of what a Traditional Catholic is?

 

[Layman]

Had a thought.

The existence of the O.F/N.O. means that those who favour experimentation and progession have a rite to work with. It also means that any attempt to modify the E.F./TLM will look decidedly suspect from now on. Probably won’t stop some liturgical experimenters ("You will have girl altar servers"), but it will also flag them up to afcionados.

**In an odd way, the N.O. may have saved the TLM. **

Want the novelties? You have a Mass to suit: from Ad-orientem Latin Novus Ordo to, I dunno, Life Teen or Charismatic(?). Want a nice quiet TLM? You will, hopefully, be catered to. Deo gratias!

 

[CradleCath]

Newt, I usually find your posts well thought out, but I’m confused as to what you are going for here. CITH isn’t permissable in the TLM nor the Church for the vast majority of our history. I don’t know if the SSPX uses the term “Novus Ordo” and quite frankly I don’t care. Why would you want any of these topics banned - censorship? What do you have to hide? Why do you find such a complication with Traditional Catholics chatting in a Traditional Catholic forum? If you don’t like Traditional thought then stay out of the Traditional forum. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

I cannot imagine…if they are happy attending the Novus Ordo…why do they CARE what those of us who attend the TLM. think. I, personally don’t care what anyone else, except for the Pope, thinks about the Mass of 1962. I would like the USCCB to give it their undivided approval…but that’s not going to happen. Other than that, why should I care what others think of my choice??? & why should they???

Anyway, as I said this afternoon, I’m SICK of the arguing.

 

[CWBetts]

I have been to two EF Masses recently. What would the traditionalists think of using the English text in the 1962 Missal? Is it truly about the form of the mass or an obsession with Latin

 

[Ockham]

Yet, you seem to imply that us "Novus Ordo Catholics" are not “Traditional,” for reasons that I don’t comprehend.

“Traditional” usually gets applied to those favouring the TLM and pre-“spirit of Vatican II” changes. Note that I didn’t say “pre-Vatican II” as most of the changes incured since the Council weren’t actually in the Council documents. Baltimore Catechism versus the Modern. Cross shaped churches versus clamshells. Tabernacle as the focal point in the Sanctuary versus hidden in a side-chapel.

Personally, I don’t care if anyone likes my definition of “Traditional”. Once again I’ll suggest that if you don’t care for Traditional thought and practices then stay out of the Traditional forum. What do you expect to find here? What then could be your agenda for debate? How about petitioning the moderators to create a Novus Ordo/Baby Boomer Liturgy forum where you can debate the merits of red balloons versus blue, preference of liturgical dance (classical versus hip hop) Gather hymnal versus Glory and Praise, best outdoor Mass locations and why the Folk Mass seems to be fading away.

 

[Ockham]

I have been to two EF Masses recently. What would the traditionalists think of using the English text in the 1962 Missal? Is it truly about the form of the mass or an obsession with Latin

It’s not an obsession with a language. Latin is the universal language of the Church and concrete. It isn’t suseptible to the nuances and changes of modern tongue. We may not see many current priests learn liturgical Latin, but the seminaries are filled with young candidates willing to make the necessary effort in becoming fluent.

 

[Timothysis]

How about petitioning the moderators to create a Novus Ordo/Baby Boomer Liturgy forum where you can debate the merits of red balloons versus blue, preference of liturgical dance (classical versus hip hop) Gather hymnal versus Glory and Praise, best outdoor Mass locations and why the Folk Mass seems to be fading away.

You just showed your true colors. If you are the standard of a “Traditionalist” catholic, then I don’t want anything to do with it.