Novus Ordo Charismatic Services

[7rosario]

Most Traditional Catholics (myself included) will argue that NO Charismatic Movement has protestant roots and therefore is a product of the devil. But,

How do you explain NO Charismatic Services’ apparent good experiences such as compunction/Contrition with profuse uncontrollable crying (gift of tears) and inner healing
and driving out demons (with pig-squeak sounds from the ones being exorcised)?

(I’ve never been to one but I’ve heard these things happening.)

 

[bpbasilphx]

I will say what I’ve said before about any such sign:

What is the FRUIT of this sign in the lives of the people involved?

Does it lead to greater humility, greater love, greater devotion to Christ and the Holy Mysteries?

Or does it lead to pride and separatism?

 

[7rosario]

I will say what I’ve said before about any such sign:

What is the FRUIT of this sign in the lives of the people involved?

Does it lead to greater humility, greater love, greater devotion to Christ and the Holy Mysteries?

Or does it lead to pride and separatism?

From what I’ve heard and seen, it makes lukewarm ones have fervor and stronger faith b/c they had palpable religious experience.

 

[PapaBennySix]

From what I’ve heard and seen, it makes lukewarm ones have fervor and stronger faith b/c they had palpable religious experience.

Hmm… if they need to see “miracles” and speaking in tongues to get excited about God… and it may indeed be a supernatural experience, religious one… but from God???

Make a good confession, receive worthily holy communion…and the peace you get from that is all the miracle you should ever need.

 

[bpbasilphx]

I forgot to mention–also what doctrine comes with this or that sign?

Thanks for reminding me, Papabennysix.

 

[PapaBennySix]

“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of My Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Many will say to Me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in Thy name, and cast out devils in Thy name, and done many miracles in Thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity.” ** (Matt. VII: 21-23)**

“And I greatly fear what is happening in these times of ours: If any soul whatever after a bit of meditation has in its recollection one of these locutions, it will immediately baptize all as coming from God and with such a supposition say, ‘God told me,’ ‘God answered me.’ Yet this is not so, but, as we pointed out, these persons themselves are more often the origin of their locution.” **(St. John of the Cross: The Ascent of Mount Carmel. Book II Ch. 29) **

 

[otjm]

Most Traditional Catholics (myself included) will argue that NO Charismatic Movement has protestant roots and therefore is a product of the devil.

You seem to be making the argument that if something comes from the Protestants, it is therefore the product of the devil. That, however, is not the position of the Magisterium of the Church; you might want to familarize yourself as to what the Catholic Church actually teaches about Protestants.

The answer to your question - how is it that seemingly good fruit is coming forth from and through the Charismatic part of the Catholic Church - is therefore tainted with your presumption that this is the work of the devil, or is somehow tainted by the devil.

 

[Freshman88]

You seem to be making the argument that if something comes from the Protestants, it is therefore the product of the devil. That, however, is not the position of the Magisterium of the Church; you might want to familarize yourself as to what the Catholic Church actually teaches about Protestants.

The answer to your question - how is it that seemingly good fruit is coming forth from and through the Charismatic part of the Catholic Church - is therefore tainted with your presumption that this is the work of the devil, or is somehow tainted by the devil.

I am not familair with Charismatic movement but I think your incorrect about what the Church teaches concerning Protestantism.

All truth belongs to Christ and his Church. Thus whenever Protestants agree with us it is our Truth they are subscribing to.

Wherever Protestants disagree with us, it is because they are false. That this is satanic in origin - I can’t say. What I can say is it is not of Christ for it is not of the Truth which is found in most fully in the Church.

In any case, if it is tainted by Protestantism then it might be said that is tainted with falsehoods.

 

[otjm]

I am not familair with Charismatic movement but I think your incorrect about what the Church teaches concerning Protestantism.

All truth belongs to Christ and his Church. Thus whenever Protestants agree with us it is our Truth they are subscribing to.

Wherever Protestants disagree with us, it is because they are false. That this is satanic in origin - I can’t say. What I can say is it is not of Christ for it is not of the Truth which is found in most fully in the Church.

In any case, if it is tainted by Protestantism then it might be said that is tainted with falsehoods.

And I say that the working of the Holy Spirit is not tainted as the Holy Spirit cannot do tainted work. In short, it doesn’t matter if a Catholic prayed that another Catholic would receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, or a Protestant prayed that the Catholic receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. If the Catholic receives it, it is because the Holy Spirit chose to act.

Saying that the Charismatic movement is tainted because it may have started through prayer meetings with Protestants is tantamount to saying that the act of the Holy Spirit is tainted. The Holy Spirit can’t do tainted acts. It flat out doesn’t matter how it started (that is, Protestant or not); what occured was an act of the Holy Spirit. So says John Paul. So says the Church doctrinally. Let’s get over the start of it, ok? If it occured (and both John Paul and I beleive it did) then it is an act of the Holy Spirit. God doesn’t do evil; God doesn’t do tainted acts.

Subsequent to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the individual receiving that outpouring can go astray. They can (and do) sin. The can also be forgiven of sin if they go to Reconcilliation. They can put too much emphasis on the gifts; they can abuse the gifts. None of that has really anything to do with how it started; it has to do with man’s inherent tendency to sin - concupience.

If the Charismatic movement has ahd some problems, that is no more necessarily based on its starting than if Opus Dei had some problems. The devil doesn’t care about the start; he cares about untracking man’s walk with God.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

And I say that the working of the Holy Spirit is not tainted as the Holy Spirit cannot do tainted work. In short, it doesn’t matter if a Catholic prayed that another Catholic would receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, or a Protestant prayed that the Catholic receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. If the Catholic receives it, it is because the Holy Spirit chose to act.

Saying that the Charismatic movement is tainted because it may have started through prayer meetings with Protestants is tantamount to saying that the act of the Holy Spirit is tainted. The Holy Spirit can’t do tainted acts. It flat out doesn’t matter how it started (that is, Protestant or not); what occured was an act of the Holy Spirit. So says John Paul. So says the Church doctrinally. Let’s get over the start of it, ok? If it occured (and both John Paul and I beleive it did) then it is an act of the Holy Spirit. God doesn’t do evil; God doesn’t do tainted acts.

Subsequent to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the individual receiving that outpouring can go astray. They can (and do) sin. The can also be forgiven of sin if they go to Reconcilliation. They can put too much emphasis on the gifts; they can abuse the gifts. None of that has really anything to do with how it started; it has to do with man’s inherent tendency to sin - concupience.

If the Charismatic movement has ahd some problems, that is no more necessarily based on its starting than if Opus Dei had some problems. The devil doesn’t care about the start; he cares about untracking man’s walk with God.

:harp: :harp: :harp:

 

[Freshman88]

And I say that the working of the Holy Spirit is not tainted as the Holy Spirit cannot do tainted work. In short, it doesn’t matter if a Catholic prayed that another Catholic would receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit, or a Protestant prayed that the Catholic receive an outpouring of the Holy Spirit. If the Catholic receives it, it is because the Holy Spirit chose to act.

Saying that the Charismatic movement is tainted because it may have started through prayer meetings with Protestants is tantamount to saying that the act of the Holy Spirit is tainted. The Holy Spirit can’t do tainted acts. It flat out doesn’t matter how it started (that is, Protestant or not); what occured was an act of the Holy Spirit. So says John Paul. So says the Church doctrinally. Let’s get over the start of it, ok? If it occured (and both John Paul and I beleive it did) then it is an act of the Holy Spirit. God doesn’t do evil; God doesn’t do tainted acts.

Subsequent to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the individual receiving that outpouring can go astray. They can (and do) sin. The can also be forgiven of sin if they go to Reconcilliation. They can put too much emphasis on the gifts; they can abuse the gifts. None of that has really anything to do with how it started; it has to do with man’s inherent tendency to sin - concupience.

If the Charismatic movement has ahd some problems, that is no more necessarily based on its starting than if Opus Dei had some problems. The devil doesn’t care about the start; he cares about untracking man’s walk with God.

I think you missed my point.
There’s nothing wrong with simply praying for the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit (or at least I think so - it seems to be akin to demanding proof or miracles, which is quite sinful). If that is all that this Charismatic movement does then it isn’t protestant in origin but is Catholic. It is upon the Catholic Church the Holy Spirit was first poured upon, and it was the Catholic Church that the revelation of the Trinity was given.

 

[NetNuncio]

From what I’ve heard and seen, it makes lukewarm ones have fervor and stronger faith b/c they had palpable religious experience.

This is actually my biggest concern with the Charismatic movement, apart from the possibility of liturgical abuses (of course, that happens all too much in regular NO Masses)

My concern is that those with lukewarm faith come back because of peppy music and emotional fervor. While I don’t doubt many have authentic religious experience, if people are in the pews for anything else but absolute love of Jesus Christ (not good feelings, not exciting music, not a charismatic preacher), they are there for the wrong reasons. Basing one’s spirituality on an emotional service is dangerous, as it roots one’s faith in tangible and removable aspects of worship, instead of a deep love of Jesus Christ and the Eucharist.

 

[otjm]

This is actually my biggest concern with the Charismatic movement, apart from the possibility of liturgical abuses (of course, that happens all too much in regular NO Masses)

My concern is that those with lukewarm faith come back because of peppy music and emotional fervor. While I don’t doubt many have authentic religious experience, if people are in the pews for anything else but absolute love of Jesus Christ (not good feelings, not exciting music, not a charismatic preacher), they are there for the wrong reasons. Basing one’s spirituality on an emotional service is dangerous, as it roots one’s faith in tangible and removable aspects of worship, instead of a deep love of Jesus Christ and the Eucharist.

The people I have met and known have a very deep and feervant love of Christ and the Eucharist. It would appear that you have not met many Charismatics. they really are not scary.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

This is actually my biggest concern with the Charismatic movement, apart from the possibility of liturgical abuses (of course, that happens all too much in regular NO Masses)

My concern is that those with lukewarm faith come back because of peppy music and emotional fervor. While I don’t doubt many have authentic religious experience, if people are in the pews for anything else but absolute love of Jesus Christ (not good feelings, not exciting music, not a charismatic preacher), they are there for the wrong reasons. Basing one’s spirituality on an emotional service is dangerous, as it roots one’s faith in tangible and removable aspects of worship, instead of a deep love of Jesus Christ and the Eucharist.

Same can be said about the TLM and the lukewarm.

 

[I_Believe]

Anyone know where I can purchase a Charischismatic Missal ?
My Missal doesn’t have the Propers of one of those Masses.

 

[po18guy]

From what I’ve heard and seen, it makes lukewarm ones have fervor and stronger faith b/c they had palpable religious experience.

I was “baptized in the Holy Spirit” a few years ago by a charismatic priest at a “Life in the Spirit” seminar. Since then, my faith life has caught fire. I am no longer afraid to reveal my faith. I am called to intercessory prayer before the Blessed Sacrament, and have seen minor miracles. Once the gifts of the Holy Spirit are released, there is no looking back.

Christ’s peace.

 

[I_Believe]

I was attempting humor in my post above, but seriously though, while Joy in Christ and knowing the Holy Spirit is a wonderful thing, Joy should be allowed to just come upon us when it happens to do so.

The Mass is a Sacrifice. It’s a prayer. It’s not about feeling good. It offers comfort in knowing our Salvation is assured because of Christ’s suffering. It’s not time to smile. And it’s not the time to work the faithful into a frenzy.

I just don’t see how we can justify joining something like this into the Sacraments of Holy Communion or Confession.

It’s closer to a Protestant Pentocostal Spirituality than it is to Roman Catholic Spirituality.

The Church has given us many ways to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost. One of the Twelve Fruits of the Holy Ghost is Joy. We need not gather and invoke it, we receive it as the Holy Ghost wills it.

My point is, when we feel the need to strengthen our Roman Catholic Spirituality, look first to what HMC already has in Her treaure chest of traditional Roman Catholic devotions, sacramentals, prayers, etc… For example the Litany of the Holy Ghost.

We don’t have to be creative. All we need is already there.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I am getting tired. This same kind of thread has been popping up over and over with the same (some not as bad, some worse) description of Catholic Charismatics, by people saying they are trying to understand it. I honestly think its some of the same ones comming back under a different name, just to start it over. I have been Charismatic since the early 80"s. I still am waiting to hear pigs squeel as he said, ot as others have said, barking like dogs. I guess if you dont understand them or know about them, you just riducule them. We have seen that many times in Church history before. Look around CAF for some of the other threads. You will find the same things discussed to the extreme, some with common sense and others with, well…
As for the gift of tears, there are times when I am giving a homily or teaching my beloved True Faith, that I get choked up and have tears. I don’t call this a gift, but it happens. When it does, I have an overwhelming feeling of unworthiness as to what I am doing and am wondering, “God, why did you pick me to do this, I am so unworthy.” In effect, none of us are worthy for the gifts which God in his infinite love and mercy has rained down on us in abundance. If we all only could understand that God desires Mercy and not justice. All we have to do is turn to him and let his love overpower us. People often mock and make fun of what they do not understand. I still don’t understand the Charismatic movement, but know that the Holy Spirit is alive and moving among us and guiding us. For those who think it is just a bunch of crazy people, I guess you would have to put our beloved Pope John Paul II in that category, because guess what people, he was one.
Deacon Ed B.

 

[Freshman88]

If we all only could understand that God desires Mercy and not justice.

Huh? What makes you think that justice and mercy are at odds?
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1807 Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor. Justice toward God is called the “virtue of religion.” Justice toward men disposes one to respect the rights of each and to establish in human relationships the harmony that promotes equity with regard to persons and to the common good. The just man, often mentioned in the Sacred Scriptures, is distinguished by habitual right thinking and the uprightness of his conduct toward his neighbor. “You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor.” “Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.”

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

By your question I see you are not familiar with the Devotion of Divine Mercy Sunday. This is the Sunday after Easter, which Pope John Paul II has mandated be celebrated through out the world. Not all parishes are doing it yet. It is based on the apparitions (approved by the Church) of Jesus to a Polish nun named (now) St. Faustina Kawalska. In those apparitions which Jesus had with her which were almost daily, Jesus is quoted as saying, “If only people would realize that I desire Mercy, not Justice.” This was said about us sinners here on earth. What it means is that Jesus wants us to desire his mercy out of love, not fear his justice because of just punishments. Many blessings and indulgences are granted through celebrating Divine Mercy Sunday at parishes. It has a special format, which includes the Chaplet of Divine Mercy, Eucharistic Adoration and Benediction, rosary followed by the Holy Mass and opportunity for confession before and during the celebration. It is aimed at reconciliation by trust in Gods Mercy. This is what I was referring to. If you are familiar with it, I am sorry for misjudging, if not, look into it. It is truly a wonderful devotion. I am blessed to be on the official cenical for my Archdiocese tasked with spreading this devotion. God Bless
Deacon Ed B