Novus Ordo Missae - Good for the Church?

[AJV]

“By their fruits you shall know them.” From the point of view of its fruits, the NO Mass is not a rite conducive to the flourishing of the Church’s mission, when you look at the decrease in vocations, mass attendance, belief in the Real Presence ect.

Although the NO Missae itself does not promulgate the liturgical abuses or innovations that have emerged (communion in the hand, altar girls, dancing matrons, rock bands, standing during the consecration) it does provide greater opportunity and leeway for these actions to take place. There are some fundamental flaws in the new Mass that are present regardless of how reverent it is celebrated.

The New Liturgy stripped the Offertory prayers of a sacrificial, propitiatory emphasis. In its place is the Presentation of the Gifts borrowed word-for-word from the Jewish grace-before-meals cited by the Talmud. “Blessed are you, Lord God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.”

This suppresses mention of the Sacrificial character of the Mass and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist as Victim to be offered to the Father in propitiation for our sins. The emphasis is on a memorial meal and on thanksgiving. The term “It will become for us the bread of life.” is deliberately ambiguous. “Bread of life” can mean anything–as can the subsequent phrase regarding the wine: “it will become for us our spiritual drink”. This can mean anything. Not a whisper about Christ’s sacrifice or our redemption from sin by means of his sacrifice.

Throughout the new Mass a parallel is set up between the “Liturgy of the Word” and the “Eucharistic Liturgy” both of which are on the “table of the Lord” where Christ gives Himself as spiritual food. In fact the liturgical text deliberately blurs the distinction between Christ’s Presence on the altar and in the Word of Scripture and in the congregation itself–all of which is distinctly Protestant. The Novus Ordo, moreover, destroyed the ancient three-part sacrificial liturgical structure of oblation (Offertory), immolation (Consecration) and consumption (Communion) and substituted a memorial meal instead. It did so while deliberately eliminating emphasis on the truths of the Catholic Faith regarding sin, the need for redemption, and the propitiatory nature of Christ’s sacrifice.

It’s true others completed by other means what Paul VI began. But there can be no doubt the intention was to emulate Luther’s Lord’s Supper liturgy. The present Mass in fact in virtually indistinguishable from a Lutheran or Methodist service.

Agree.

Fast Ed,

I agee with you. Over the years I’ve been to both Luthern and Methodist services and the Luthern, in particlular, is a ringer for the NO. It was spooky.

You are right when you say the NO is basically flawed.

I could see it last night at Mass and it was done reverently. The choir was great but the liturgy was “weak”

Could any one of you’ll please demonstrate using any Lutheran books before 1970? I’m highly interested since I don’t see much similarity in either the newest LSB or the ELW which have both made great strides in the Lutheran liturgy.

Actually there is more than a whisper of Sacrifice at the Offertory. You can find in the prayer In spiritu humilitatis, the *Oratio Super oblata *and the *Orate Fratres *. Unlike those omitted there is no anticipation in these.

If you really want ot go ancient wise- oblation and immolation according to the Roman liturgy belongs in the Eucharistic Prayer and has from the earliest of dates and is so even in the TLM. The way oblation has made its way of anticipation into the Offertory is because of the liturgies from where it was taken. As you know, the Roman liturgy was spread throughout Gaul and Spain and gradually displaced those liturgies.
In those liturgies, unlike in Rome: the oblation, commemoration of the saints, and Memento’s were made at the Offertory rather than in the Eucharistic Prayer. As the Roman replaced the Galician, a certain amount of repetition took place when the Canon displaced the fixed and variable prayers of the Galician Eucharistic Prayer: and so various local councils and synods forbade the recitation of names at the Offertory “as some are accustomed to do” and insisted that they be only recited (and recited silently) within the Canon and that the Pax be given before communion. The remaining Offertory prayers took on a devotional character, and in the way of much else, worked their way into the curial missal.

It was because of their anticipatory character that they were omitted and this is not new: the SCCNP did the same for some of the Eastern books in the 19th century (which have it to a greater degree)

 

[TOME]

When I read the question introducing this Thread I couldn’t help but ask myself is the Novus Ordo really that bad? What made me think this is the fact of the life of the Church outside of the USA especially in Africa, Asia and South America.
I may be wrong but isn’t the Novus Ordo the norm in these areas as well? Also, I couldn’t be help but to be moved by the Midnight Mass from Rome that I watched on TV. I couldn’t find anything wrong with this celebration (except I wish our Pope spoke longer but that’s because I really like listening to the words of our Holy Father and in truth the lenght and message of his homily was as good as it gets - I just like listening to him).

Perhaps, the real problem is many of us we have been deprived of the real solemnity and beauty of the Novus Ordo because too often things are added in a sincere effort to make the Mass more “meaningful”, more revelant?

 

[netmilsmom]

I think the Novus Ordo did show one fatal flaw about some of us traditionalists. While I believe the Novus Ordo, in many places, has been taken to the liberal extreme, Tridentine Mass people do the same - but in the other direction.

Like when some people throw up a hissy fit when the candles are not lit in the proper order, or some of the altar boys are wearing round neck surplices while some are wearing square necks.

Please don’t minimalize the problems that people are having in their parishes.
Posters came here to vent about the Christmas Community Centered masses they had to attend and were dismissed with a “Do you have to complain?” smack.

If these people had Christ Centered Masses, they wouldn’t complain about the little things, but the little things, tons of them, thrown together become one big thing.

I have yet to see a thread here that was complaining about square necklines or father’s fingers too far apart, alone. Those complaints are lumped into posts about handholding, party atmospheres and father making words up.

If people would kindly give some sympathy to the posters who have to live in “Innovation Central Catholic Communtiy” instead of piling on them, maybe we could all feel better.

Our Midnight Holy Mass started with a male choir chanting in Midnight as the bells tolled outside. It just got better from there. My heart goes out to those who had to go to the Pop concert excuse for a Holy Mass.

Yours should too.

 

[netmilsmom]

Perhaps, the real problem is many of us we have been deprived of the real solemnity and beauty of the Novus Ordo because too often things are added in a sincere effort to make the Mass more “meaningful”, more revelant?

Exactly!!!

Did you watch the Holy Mass for Christmas from EWTN?
It wasn’t huge or a big production but softly beautiful and reverent.

That’s what people are looking for. Although the Papal Mass is lovely and short of the people who have to lift up their arms to signal when people should sing (WHAT is up with that??) the mass from Washington DC was great too. People just really want the EWTN mass and not a giant “me” party.

No socializing, no clapping, no group hugs, no daisy chaining. Father stays where he should be and not mingling during Holy Mass, sticks to the words he should be saying, no glass goblets and licit hosts. Is this SO hard?

It’s not about the choir and it’s not about the community. We should be acting that way.

 

[hoosiertoo]

I trust the Trinity knew what they were doing on Sinai when they gave Moses the two tablets of the Law. Nice gimmick to focus the attention of an easily distracted crowd. But the audience was so wedded to the tangible and to numbers that it focused all it’s attention on those two stone lists of rules and and forgot the light blazing from Moses’ face, fresh from meeting God. - Wm J O’Malley, S.J.

 

[Unfinished]

Please don’t minimalize the problems that people are having in their parishes.
Posters came here to vent about the Christmas Community Centered masses they had to attend and were dismissed with a “Do you have to complain?” smack.

I’m not minimalizing anything. I stopped going to the Novus Ordo on a regular basis long ago because I couldn’t take the hand clapping to the tunes of “Soon and very soon…”

If these people had Christ Centered Masses, they wouldn’t complain about the little things, but the little things, tons of them, thrown together become one big thing.

I have yet to see a thread here that was complaining about square necklines or father’s fingers too far apart, alone. Those complaints are lumped into posts about handholding, party atmospheres and father making words up.

I attend a Tridentine Mass parish. Those complaints I mentioned were some of the stupid things that the people complain about during the Latin Mass. I hear that kind of stupid stuff almost every single week from the people there, and I am sure our poor priest hears it more than I do.

People don’t complain on this board about that stuff because they are most likely happy to find a TLM parish that isn’t run rampent with abuses, so most of them could care less if the sacntuary gate isn’t closed at the correct time. But to some of the traditionalists, it is the end of the world.

If people would kindly give some sympathy to the posters who have to live in “Innovation Central Catholic Communtiy” instead of piling on them, maybe we could all feel better.

Our Midnight Holy Mass started with a male choir chanting in Midnight as the bells tolled outside. It just got better from there. My heart goes out to those who had to go to the Pop concert excuse for a Holy Mass.

Yours should too.

I have nothing but sympathy for people who cannot escape the Novus Ordo. (Or perhaps I should say, an irreverant Novus Ordo)

I was just pointing out some of the flaws of the Tridentine Mass to show how the Novus Ordo may of helped. But, like I said, we could of fixed that without destroying our liturgy.

 

[Walking_Home]

I’m not minimalizing anything. I stopped going to the Novus Ordo on a regular basis long ago because I couldn’t take the hand clapping to the tunes of “Soon and very soon…”

I attend a Tridentine Mass parish. Those complaints I mentioned were some of the stupid things that the people complain about during the Latin Mass. I hear that kind of stupid stuff almost every single week from the people there, and I am sure our poor priest hears it more than I do.

People don’t complain on this board about that stuff because they are most likely happy to find a TLM parish that isn’t run rampent with abuses, so most of them could care less if the sacntuary gate isn’t closed at the correct time. But to some of the traditionalists, it is the end of the world.

I have nothing but sympathy for people who cannot escape the Novus Ordo. (Or perhaps I should say, an irreverant Novus Ordo)

I was just pointing out some of the flaws of the Tridentine Mass to show how the Novus Ordo may of helped. But, like I said, we could of fixed that without destroying our liturgy.

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Could be—that people who seem to be overly concerned about what happens in the TLM–are worried that the same type of irreverance that has crept into many NOs–will work its way into the TLM.

 

[brotherhrolf]

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Could be—that people who seem to be overly concerned about what happens in the TLM–are worried that the same type of irreverance that has crept into many NOs–will work its way into the TLM.

I would say that this is nigh unto an impossibility which is not to say that there wasn’t irreverance in the TLM - I think a 20 minute low Mass ranks pretty high up there in terms of liturgical abuse. And “speed” Masses were not uncommon years ago. But I wouldn’t worry about music, hand-holding, running all over the place during the sign of peace type of thing.

 

[Walking_Home]

I would say that this is nigh unto an impossibility which is not to say that there wasn’t irreverance in the TLM - I think a 20 minute low Mass ranks pretty high up there in terms of liturgical abuse. And “speed” Masses were not uncommon years ago. But I wouldn’t worry about music, hand-holding, running all over the place during the sign of peace type of thing.

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The form of the TLM then–does not lend itself to the introduction of innovations.

 

[palmas85]

Some people complain that there is less reverence in the current rite of the mass.

I don’t believe that is true, for a second. The lack of reverence is just a symptom of the age we are in, it is coincidental that the novus ordo came down at the same time.

Look at the general disrespect in our society as a whole, and it would be tough to think that if the n.o. wasn’t promulgated, there wouldn’t be the same problems in the Latin mass. The current day Latin mass isn’t typical as those who attend are a self-selected group that is really concerned with reverence. They aren’t really typical of rank-and-filer Catholics.

Thats true, sad but true. I would have to say though that the failure of the Pauline Rite is in that it is how shall I word it, too user friendly. I mean you can do almost anything you want with it. Introduce new ideas, new things, new postures, music, innovations, anything at all. Even Barney. And most people apparently think it’s all right and perfectly fine to do so. All of this I guess in an effort to be accomodating and give people that sense of community and inclusiveness that many claim were often lacking in the Pre Concilar Church A noble and idealistic goal. A total, complete and abject failure in practice…

The funny thing is the places that have a true sense of community now are the Traditional Masses and not the other way around. The more the Pauline struggles to be relevant the further back it falls. I honestly feel that if the Vatican doesn’t do something substantial and I mean substantial to correct the errors and abuses that continually crop up, and take some form of action with those that continue to commit them, in another 15-20 years they won’t have to The Rite will die it’s own death. I hate to say that, but I really feel that way.

 

[brotherhrolf]

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The form of the TLM then–does not lend itself to the introduction of innovations.

Precisely. The number of “options” permitted were generally prescribed by the liturgical season and not by the priest.

 

[mshealy]

Who knows really? If they had stuck with the TLM over the last 40 years some people would have made innovations to it. I just wish they’d do the NO correctly, i.e., follow the GIRM and appropriate rubics. If the NO were done the way it’s supposed to be done, we’d have fewer issues like this.

 

[CatholicNick]

So, those who answered yes to the poll.

Could you explain how the NO has been good for the church, and what its good fruits have been?

 

[wynd]

So, those who answered yes to the poll.

Could you explain how the NO has been good for the church, and what its good fruits have been?

I voted no but I am going to answer you anyway. I think one of the great things about the NO is the expanded lectionary.

 

[Kielbasi]

The funny thing is the places that have a true sense of community now are the Traditional Masses and not the other way around.

Is this really true? I don’t attend the Tridentine Mass, so I wouldn’t know and I’m asking.

But I know this much about it, there is just one venue in the Pittsburgh diocese. Folks reportedly come from all over, many driving 30 minutes or more. The problem I see is that a long commute to church makes it difficult to stop by for activities outside of mass such as classes or athletics for the kids or transportation challenged, makes it improbable that you’d see fellow community members socially or at the store, generally presents a lot of logistic difficulties.

The Catholic idea of neighborhood parishes has a lot to be said for building community, encouraging young parents to raise their children as Catholic and discouraging defections of Catholics who are continuing to live in a geographical neighborhood. I don’t think that traveling across town to hear Mass weekly and never engaging the other members of the community during the other 6 days of the week can do the same for the idea of “community”.

 

[arieh0310]

Is this really true? I don’t attend the Tridentine Mass, so I wouldn’t know and I’m asking.

But I know this much about it, there is just one venue in the Pittsburgh diocese. Folks reportedly come from all over, many driving 30 minutes or more. The problem I see is that a long commute to church makes it difficult to stop by for activities outside of mass such as classes or athletics for the kids or transportation challenged, makes it improbable that you’d see fellow community members socially or at the store, generally presents a lot of logistic difficulties.

The Catholic idea of neighborhood parishes has a lot to be said for building community, encouraging young parents to raise their children as Catholic and discouraging defections of Catholics who are continuing to live in a geographical neighborhood. I don’t think that traveling across town to hear Mass weekly and never engaging the other members of the community during the other 6 days of the week can do the same for the idea of “community”.

I couldn’t have said it better myself!! The number of TLMs allowed by our bishops is atrocious. Hence the need for a universal indult. If every sizable parish offered at least one TLM on Sunday then people wouldn’t need to commute (and we would have reverence in our liturgies again). The reason why people commute to attend the old rite is because they are sick of irreverent or pedestrian liturgies, and the TLM seems to be the only refuge.

 

[francesco920]

I voted no. The NO isn’t so bad on paper, but it allows for too much abuse and it just doesn’t have that sense of sacredness that a Tridentine Mass has. I think that it would have been a better idea to simply change the language of the Tridentine Mass from Latin to the vernacular than to create the NO.

I anxiously await the pope’s motu proprio.

 

[netmilsmom]

I couldn’t have said it better myself!! The number of TLMs allowed by our bishops is atrocious. Hence the need for a universal indult. If every sizable parish offered at least one TLM on Sunday then people wouldn’t need to commute (and we would have reverence in our liturgies again). The reason why people commute to attend the old rite is because they are sick of irreverent or pedestrian liturgies, and the TLM seems to be the only refuge.

I agree. One of each of these per Vicariate

1. TLM
2. Latin NO
3. Vernacular NO with Latin and Greek responses
4. Vernacular NO with innovation allowed
5. LifeTeen
6. Charismatic mass

Then no one can complain about not being able to get a liturgy as they like it.
It could work if we all work together.

 

[arieh0310]

I agree. One of each of these per Vicariate

1. TLM
2. Latin NO
3. Vernacular NO with Latin and Greek responses
4. Vernacular NO with innovation allowed
5. LifeTeen
6. Charismatic mass

Then no one can complain about not being able to get a liturgy as they like it.
It could work if we all work together.

I agree will all but the last three…

 

[netmilsmom]

I agree will all but the last three…

If we do not offer all of them, then we are doing to the Innovative Catholics just what has been done to us.

We must offer all. Then let the market decide. I suspect the last three will have less and less attendees but at least the more traditional of us can have the back up of stating that we tried.

Otherwise we are just as bad as the poster who stated that we should move to Nebraska or Detroit if we didn’t like that we couldn’t find an EWTN type NO.

Kind of like a Catholic Ethnic Cleansing! Do it our way or pack your bags and don’t let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya!