Now I'm in a proper quandry!

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FightingFat

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news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4349581.stm

*The head of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales has backed Michael Howard’s stance on abortions. *
The Tory leader supports a reduction in the legal limit from 24 weeks to 20 and told Cosmopolitan that current rules are “tantamount to abortion on demand”.

Well, that’s it then, we all have to vote for Michael ‘something of the night about him’ Howard!! God help us all!
 
I can’t stand Michael Howard but to vote Tory always seems the least of the evils as Catholics. The others are far too pro choice. I understand there is a pro life party but haven’t been able to find out much about them. There are very few politicians willing to take a stand for what is morally right over what is “popular” and pro choice is a huge vote winner in my experience.

I am unable to vote this year as my council never confirmed we were not on the electoral roll until after they closed it :confused: . We assumed we were listed to vote as part of paying our council tax but I am still listed in Coventry (I haven’t lived there for more than a year!) and I can’t get back there to vote. May vote by proxy there I guess, but wanted to vote in my own area.

Anyway rant over - if anyone knows more about who to vote for it would be very useful
 
hi fighting fat and all my english neighbours, in our last round of local elections, there was a newish party called the christian alliance or christian party perhaps they would be a good alternative, to both labour and tory
 
Reducing it from 24 weeks to 20 is not a good enough reason to vote Tory.

How about reducing it to 0 %, and I don’t see this issue going away, it seems to be going the way of the American election, and a good job too.

After all, this is what wer’e fighting for, a human being !

splashbulb.com/shared/001/26/51/921041_4_1.jpg
 
FightingFat said:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4349581.stm

*The head of the Roman Catholic Church in England and Wales has backed Michael Howard’s stance on abortions. *
The Tory leader supports a reduction in the legal limit from 24 weeks to 20 and told Cosmopolitan that current rules are “tantamount to abortion on demand”.

Well, that’s it then, we all have to vote for Michael ‘something of the night about him’ Howard!! God help us all!

While the article stated Cardinal O’Connor backed Mr. Howard’s position, the quotes from the Cardinal do not support this conclusion. The Cardinal actually said, “The policy supported by Mr Howard is one that we would commend, on the way to a full abandonment of abortion.” I fully agree with Cardinal O’Connor.
 
Elizabeth B:
I fully agree with Cardinal O’Connor.
So do we all Elizabeth- but Howard is talking about 1% of all the abortions that happen in the UK. Am I being cynical in thinking he is using this as a clever tool to maipulate the electorate? Could he be employing a tool used by the American President in the recent election to great effect? Certainly, his personal morality is far from unblemished from a Catholic perspective. Blair is married to a Catholic, one wonders where exactly his sympathies lie. Unfortunately, he has decided to to announce that he does not want abortion used as an election issue.
As Catholics, it should be though, shouldn’t it?
 
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FightingFat:
So do we all Elizabeth- but Howard is talking about 1% of all the abortions that happen in the UK. Am I being cynical in thinking he is using this as a clever tool to maipulate the electorate? Could he be employing a tool used by the American President in the recent election to great effect? Certainly, his personal morality is far from unblemished from a Catholic perspective. Blair is married to a Catholic, one wonders where exactly his sympathies lie. Unfortunately, he has decided to to announce that he does not want abortion used as an election issue.
As Catholics, it should be though, shouldn’t it?
Absolutely.

I can’t speak for the UK, but here in the US many election issues slip out of sight once the results are announced. Fortunately, there are some folks refusing to let the moral issues fizzle this time. Folks on both sides of the issues are speaking up and gearing up for the big battles to come – for us, the appointment of Federal and Supreme Court judges.
 
A proper quandary is right
I heard Archbishop Smith on the radio the other day and he said that it was important to consider many issues when voting.
I think it would be very dangerous to blindly vote for the candidate who claimed to be the most pro-life regardless of their other policies.
In Britain there are good Catholics and Christian men and women in all the political parties. I don’t know who I’ll vote for as we don’t have information on all the candidates yet here, but I will say that I wouldn’t vote for anyone who was in favour of more liberal abortion laws and intended to work for that cause.
 
I’m not from England, but if I was in your situation, and I couldn’t vote for a candidate who opposed legalized abortion, I wouldn’t vote at all. Voting is not morally obligatory no matter what anyone may tell you. Silence is also speech.
 
You an Englishman Garfield?

Good post! I agree!

I cannot help but feel under the previous Conservative Government, public services suffered. The Conservatives are a party of tax cuts and spending cuts. It’s taken Labour this long and this amount of re-investment to get the NHS and pensions etc. back on line. Why would we want to cut those investments now?

The British people seem more interested in value for money these days. I think people expect better health care, more police etc. to cost more, so they can’t see that 2p a month better of in tax breaks (and -£2 million into the health service or whatever that would equate to) will be of much benefit.
 
Dear friends

I am utterly convinced that Michael Howard has seen how profitable it has been for President Bush to be pro-life politically and has jumped on this band wagon. Mr Bush may be sincere, but it is certain Mr Howard is not sincere.

Keeping tabs on the political forum is no barometer for what they actually will do, we all know that pre-election promises rarely come to fruition.

I am more certain that as Catholics in the Uk are for the most part Labour voters that this is a huge chunk of advice and hinting towards Mr Blair to re-think the current laws on Abortion. As Labour is for the people, by the people, with the people, this was the chant of old and is what Mr Blair likes to present himself as, then people are also in the womb and he must consider his future voters are being aborted, he has as much duty to them as he does to those who can vote!

If Mr Blair can discern the ‘education education education’ cry as realising that our children must be nurtured for the future benefit of this country and Labours newest policy of eleviating poverty for children in the UK, then he must also realise children must be nurtured from the womb onwards. It is not even intelligent to distinguish between those in the womb and those born, all are children. What greater poverty is there in the UK than to not provide for the safety of the child in the womb?

MR Blair should also realise abortion is economically disaterous for the nation, we are presently a nation of ageing people, with an ever decreasing population of young people to earn a wage and put money back into the system by way of taxes to sustain the services and coffers of the country.

These ridiculous and murderous laws of abortion are in effect killing the economy of the nation as well as killing human beings.

If Mr Blair personally does or does not approve of abortion is irrelevant. It is not a matter of choice nor a matter of opinion, the FACTS are that from conception, human life exists and the TRUTH is that it is murder then to abort that life by unnatural (medical) means.

If the law is built on truth and justice, then this law should at least be revised to reduce the age by which abortion is lawfully allowed or more in keeping with the truth and infinitely more desireable is that the whole law should be overturned and abortion made illegal.

The right to choose…

What sort of statement is that, the right to choose what? the right to choose to kill another human being of your own flesh. That is what this law offers, it is not law, it is against the laws of humanity and against the laws of God. What the pro-choice camp do not show is the grief and suffering of people who have had an abortion. It is a destructive choice not only for baby but also for mother and father.

If I was going to say anything to anyone, I would say pray and campaign for Mr Blair to revise the abortion laws, if enough people write to him, he will have to address it and rethink his current stance. Mr Blair should also revise the adoption laws to make this system a possibility for mother’s who do not desire to have a baby but are pregnant, if this system was revised to help mothers in this position abortion may not seem like a realistic choice. It is a totally different subject I know, but there has been pressure by way of campaigning by the public for many years to make fox hunting illegal and Government has finally acted on this. This I think is what Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor is trying to achieve, assert pressure on the Government to over-turn bad law.

I have not forgotten living under a tory government though politicians rely on us having short memories, I would not wish for one minute to retrun to those days of the tories. I grew up under their leadership and it was awful, depression economically and supression of the worker, people were basically trampled on. We cannot return to a tory governed nation, it would be suicide for the country and for it’s people. Mr Howard is nothing but a wolf in sheeps clothing.

We must seek therefore to influence the present Government and I believe this is what our Cardinal desires to do.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
FF. Peter Smith (Archbishop Peter from Cardiff that is) was right. He often said that the choices to be made when deciding on a particular political party cannot be made on a single issue, all things have to be looked at and decided on in the round. Although I understand where Cormack Murphy is coming from, I suspect that what is reported it is only a small part of what he actually said, I have yet to see a transcript of his speach and there has been no mention of anything he has said in the latest Ad Clerum from the Diocese. I suppose the best guidance is still contained in “The Common Good” published back in 97, most of what that contained still applies today.

I Hope you can resolve your difficulties, your in my prayers.

Norwich
 
Good Morning Norwich,
Since I now accept the fact you are not Simon Cowel…does that mean you don’t watch Pop Idol? 😃 What about American Idol… 😛

Aimee 🙂
 
Any Biologist can state, that all life has small beginnings, the seed in plants, the cell division in mammals…

therefore from the first division of a cell it is growing…

IF IT GROWS IT IS ALIVE AND IF IT IS A-LIVE; IT IS LIFE.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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aimee:
Good Morning Norwich,
Since I now accept the fact you are not Simon Cowel…does that mean you don’t watch Pop Idol? 😃 What about American Idol… 😛

Aimee 🙂
Heaven forbid aimee. My “pop” days are firmly established in the late fifties, early sixties with a little Queen or similar thrown in.
 
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Norwich:
Heaven forbid aimee. My “pop” days are firmly established in the late fifties, early sixties with a little Queen or similar thrown in.
Ahh Yes Queen…very good.

You are an actor…aren’t you…I was sure I saw you in Are you Being Served…Captain Peacock wasn’t it… 😃
I like that show 👍
 
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Norwich:
I suppose the best guidance is still contained in “The Common Good” published back in 97, most of what that contained still applies today.
Norwich
I hesitate to intrude on my southern neighbours but I think that “Cherishing Life” from 2004 catholic-ew.org.uk/cherishinglife/contents.htm develops the thought of “The Common Good”
  1. When faced with a general election, every voter has a responsibility to act for the common good. Whatever may have been the case in the past, representatives to our legislative bodies are now almost always chosen on the basis of a party manifesto, and it is reasonable that people should pay as much attention to the party as to the person. In deciding which party to vote for, the voter needs to consider as wide a spectrum as possible of the policies proposed in the manifesto. Voting in a general election should seldom if ever be based on a single issue, because elections are concerned with a whole range of issues very many of which are concerned with life and with human flourishing. ‘A general election must never be confused with a single-issue referendum.’ (The Common Good, paragraph 65).
  1. Nevertheless, in considering the views of the particular candidate, account must be taken of their attitude to the most vulnerable. We recommend that voters ask candidates about their voting intentions on a range of issues, giving priority to issues where innocent lives are at risk. Voters should also discover how their representative in Parliament or in the Welsh Assembly has voted on these issues. As we said in The Common Good, ‘The attitude of a candidate on that one issue may indicate a general philosophy or personal bias, for instance, contempt for those who uphold the sacredness of human life, which Catholics (and many others) will find deeply objectionable’ (The Common Good, paragraph 64).
  1. Our political responsibilities as citizens are not limited to how we use our vote. On important matters we can also express our concern by writing to or seeing our MP. We could become involved in discussion through the local media or the internet. We might join with others to campaign or, on occasion, demonstrate publicly. We should seek to become better informed on difficult issues to gain some clarity for ourselves and so that we can make more of a contribution in our dialogue with others.
The issue of abortion is a conscience one so MP’s vote as individuals not as party hacks. There are pro-life MPs in all parties. I believe that Blair abstains on the issue whenever it comes before the House.
 
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Matt25:
I hesitate to intrude on my southern neighbours but I think that “Cherishing Life” from 2004 catholic-ew.org.uk/cherishinglife/contents.htm develops the thought of “The Common Good”

The issue of abortion is a conscience one so MP’s vote as individuals not as party hacks. There are pro-life MPs in all parties. I believe that Blair abstains on the issue whenever it comes before the House.
Of course, Cherishing Life was, in some senses, the next issue from the Common Good. Much of what is said in Cherishing Life refers back to the Common Good, (as your quotation amply shows) and both documents allow for the wide aspects of a political party and the more narrow requirements of Single Issue politics. Both documents recognise that even in the UK such contentious issues as abortion have to be given a free vote in the Commons and it is this point that allows the questioning of individuals.
The problem of course is that any pro life issue is always kept well clear of political debate, Howards move was stupid, from a political point of view raising such an issue during an election campaign will leave him open to being pressurised from both sides of the debate without being able to reconcile himself to either.
I must admit whether one is pro life or not, I think Howard has shown a remarkable degree of political ineptitude with this latest statement. Bush may have got away with it on the other side of the water but, I believe there is a much greater degree of political cynicism ( or maybe a healthy disrespect for political manouvering) in Europe than the States. In the long term I would suspect it’s lost him more votes than he has gained.
I think that the most effective way of promoting the pro life agenda is through direct contact with individual politicians (preferably outside an election period) a cogent and non confrontational presentation of the the FACTS regarding abortion; and that has been quite effective with some of the latest revelations regarding the development of the Feotus in its early stages, and the offer of support and help to women who are being forced to contemplate this course of action. Criminalising them or making them out to be “Devils” or whatever simply makes you look stupid and very unchristian, it’s a short cut to alienating those whose support you really require, i.e. as we say in the UK “The Great Unwashed”. By using facts and not getting drawn into an argument based on emotion you avoid the inevitable label of simply being a “crank” or “Religious Nut” which is the conventional fall back used by those opposing pro life.
I’m desperately trying to remember the Bishops name in Scotland a few years ago who created such a furore by offering women money and support to carry their pregnancy through to term, (anybody remember?). It is that sort of action, but on a much larger scale, that could have the greatest effect on the current situation.
Looking after, supporting and making feel wanted, and helping those in this terrible trap of unwanted pregnancies is far more effective than lobbing a bomb through some abortion clinic window. If politicians can see an effective and viable alternative in the current climate they are likely to jump at it.
 
the name your looking for is cardinal tom winning now deceased, he was a real champion of the catholic church
 
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