A
allhers
Guest
…and the gates of hell will not prevail.
- Status
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
No he isn’t but it is YOU that cannot face facts. Your lies and misconceptions are truly bothersome, since you do not have them correct, and I will stand as keeping on saying so. No one is in denial here, certainly not my fellow Catholics. But it is yourself that is in great denial about your ow abuses that out way the one’s that were unfortunately in our church. What is wrong with checking out WWW.REFORMATION.COM? Why not comment on these abuses which were greater than the Catholic church? Your unwillingness to research this just shows how pathetic one can get when undermining the church that Christ founded and I resent it. You bash the church, yet at the end you have this “undying” zeal toward the CC by trying to say something slightly positive. Everyone already has you figured out…Agreed
Agreed
Are you another caholic that cannot face the facts. Your impication seems to be that the facts and figures quoted in this thread are exaggerated and misinformation. I deliberately stayed away from reading any sources that would have an anticatholic agenda. But to even dispute the churchs own figuresThere is a big difference between being a loyal catholic no matter what, and being deluded. To deny the current state of the church is nothing short of delusion, and the answer will not be found there. And the answer to the crisis it is in will not come by loyal catholics staying deluded as to the very real problems currently in their church.
I do, all the time.
G
Guyonthestreet
Guest
The John Jay Report was commissioned by the USCCB. It was able to substantiate allegations against **4,392 **priests.
The website you seem so fond of, reformation.com has a total figure of **838 **ministers made up of all denominations.
So, 838 total ministers of all other denominations versus a Bishops commissioned report of 4392 priests.
Thats 5 times more catholic priests than other ministers.
And the revelations have only got worse since 2004 for the catholic church worldwide.
It is YOU that cannot accept the facts, even though, thank goodness, the catholic bishops now appear to be.
Here’s the USCCB link to the John Jay Report. Read it and weap for the victims.
From the report:
When we removed the replicated
files of priests who have allegations in more than one place, we received
allegations of sexual abuse against a total of 4,392 priests that were not
withdrawn or known to be false for the period 1950-2002.
usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
So you can’t “weep” for the Protestant ministers here who raped kids? It’s a Catholic thing? Why would you ignore these almost 1,000 (and there are a lot more than that) ministers?
The John Jay report you have here have the NUMBERS WRONG. You got your information from Wikipedia, whom everyone knows is anti-Catholic and I wouldn’t rely on their information. Why do you have to “prove” and keep “proving” that you have all the answers because you don’t? You are on here to smear the Catholic church, sooooooo obvious. But I won’t have it.
R
Religio71
Guest
do you have any per capita information in your vaunted statistics?
2
244Rocket
Guest
I saw two young seminarians at Mass this morning. It was great to see. Still praying for more vocations.
J
Joseph651
Guest
God’s peace to All;
I have been reading on this post all the pro’s and con’s about attendance within the Church, as an Anglican, I am amazed of the folks that are showing so much negativity about the numbers? I do, and would hope you would do, the same thing and get down on your knees and thank God that your Church is so strong. I realize that my Church is going through some hard time, I am sure, that God will lead me to the Catholic Church if the Anglicans decide to go against what the Bible teaches, or even better if the Holy Father takes some of us Anglicans into the Body of the Church, you folks are in a healthy body of Christ, be strong among yourselves.
Peace and Prayers to all who are in need.
One Body One Mind
I have been reading on this post all the pro’s and con’s about attendance within the Church, as an Anglican, I am amazed of the folks that are showing so much negativity about the numbers? I do, and would hope you would do, the same thing and get down on your knees and thank God that your Church is so strong. I realize that my Church is going through some hard time, I am sure, that God will lead me to the Catholic Church if the Anglicans decide to go against what the Bible teaches, or even better if the Holy Father takes some of us Anglicans into the Body of the Church, you folks are in a healthy body of Christ, be strong among yourselves.
Peace and Prayers to all who are in need.
One Body One Mind
T
tblachut
Guest
Having been in the business of numbers most of my adult-working life, I don’t want to even try to enter the statistical portion of this debate. Numbers can be useful tools, but will only carry you so far, particularly when discussing matters of faith or even the state of the Catholic Church in the world today.
However, I 've had the opportunity here to read and reflect on a lot of interesting ideas. Many are reflecting on the fact that numbers of infant baptisms don’t necessarily point to the health of the Church and don’t necessarily equate to devout, practising Catholics. All true, but as one poster pointed out and all Catholics of my age learned from their Baltimore Catechisms, those who are baptised are marked by an indelible sign from God. We are a sacramental faith and the power of our sacraments should never be underestimated. I know that in my case, around the ages of 13 to 15, I decided I knew everything and that all that I had been taught by the Church was a big load of hoey. In reality this simply allowed me to commit grave sin and justify it by denying the truth that I had been taught. Thank God for infant baptism. The Lord guided me all those years and kept me from making even more egregious errors than those I actually did commit. He also in His wisdom and kindness led me back to the faith that I previously rejected and has helped me to embrace it with a new passion for which I am very grateful. Thank you God for your infinite and tender mercy!
Another poster said that we have to have an accurate statistical picture of the Church so the Church will know what to do in the future. We are the Church. We are the body of Christ. The Church knows exactly what to do, it has as it’s head, after all, Jesus Christ. The question should be; do you know what to do? As I read this debate over numbers, I’m reminded of the angel who appeared after Christ was taken up into heaven and said “Men of Jerusalem, why are you standing around staring up at the sky?” If you want more devout Catholics in the world, start with yourself. Learn all you can, love all and do not judge them and above all pray without ceasing. Develop the qualities of joyfulness, gratitude and faithfulness. Let’s make ourselves attractive to those around us so they’ll want what we have. There are so many opportunities around us to serve others and to help them become the devout Catholics we’d like to see. Have you ever heard of a parish that had too many volunteers to teach catechism? Would that it were so! As Jesus himself said, "the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few.
At the risk of ending on a contravening note, there is one thought I would like to add to the numbers debate that I didn’t hear from any one else. I read an article the other day about the upcoming 2010 U.S. Census. It said they expected (the 2010 census) to find that there are 307 million people currently living in the U.S. Of that number approximately 283 million are citizens and the other 24 million are illegal aliens. The vast majority of illegal aliens (perhaps 90% plus) are Mexican. And the vast majority of Mexicans are Catholics. If you add the legal and illegal immigrants who have come to the U.S. from Mexico in the last 30 years, the number has to be huge. I contend that a good deal of the growth that we’re seeing in those Catholic stats, at least in the United States, is directly related to the large inflows of Mexican immigration that the U.S. has experienced these past three decades. And further, that this has largely masked the decline in participation in the already settled populations of European immigrants who made up the Catholic Church that I grew up in. While the U.S. has in no way experienced the sort of outright collapse that the Catholic Church throughout Europe has seen, it may not be doing as well as the numbers would seem to suggest. I’d be interested to know if there is anyway to verify this.
However, I 've had the opportunity here to read and reflect on a lot of interesting ideas. Many are reflecting on the fact that numbers of infant baptisms don’t necessarily point to the health of the Church and don’t necessarily equate to devout, practising Catholics. All true, but as one poster pointed out and all Catholics of my age learned from their Baltimore Catechisms, those who are baptised are marked by an indelible sign from God. We are a sacramental faith and the power of our sacraments should never be underestimated. I know that in my case, around the ages of 13 to 15, I decided I knew everything and that all that I had been taught by the Church was a big load of hoey. In reality this simply allowed me to commit grave sin and justify it by denying the truth that I had been taught. Thank God for infant baptism. The Lord guided me all those years and kept me from making even more egregious errors than those I actually did commit. He also in His wisdom and kindness led me back to the faith that I previously rejected and has helped me to embrace it with a new passion for which I am very grateful. Thank you God for your infinite and tender mercy!
Another poster said that we have to have an accurate statistical picture of the Church so the Church will know what to do in the future. We are the Church. We are the body of Christ. The Church knows exactly what to do, it has as it’s head, after all, Jesus Christ. The question should be; do you know what to do? As I read this debate over numbers, I’m reminded of the angel who appeared after Christ was taken up into heaven and said “Men of Jerusalem, why are you standing around staring up at the sky?” If you want more devout Catholics in the world, start with yourself. Learn all you can, love all and do not judge them and above all pray without ceasing. Develop the qualities of joyfulness, gratitude and faithfulness. Let’s make ourselves attractive to those around us so they’ll want what we have. There are so many opportunities around us to serve others and to help them become the devout Catholics we’d like to see. Have you ever heard of a parish that had too many volunteers to teach catechism? Would that it were so! As Jesus himself said, "the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few.
At the risk of ending on a contravening note, there is one thought I would like to add to the numbers debate that I didn’t hear from any one else. I read an article the other day about the upcoming 2010 U.S. Census. It said they expected (the 2010 census) to find that there are 307 million people currently living in the U.S. Of that number approximately 283 million are citizens and the other 24 million are illegal aliens. The vast majority of illegal aliens (perhaps 90% plus) are Mexican. And the vast majority of Mexicans are Catholics. If you add the legal and illegal immigrants who have come to the U.S. from Mexico in the last 30 years, the number has to be huge. I contend that a good deal of the growth that we’re seeing in those Catholic stats, at least in the United States, is directly related to the large inflows of Mexican immigration that the U.S. has experienced these past three decades. And further, that this has largely masked the decline in participation in the already settled populations of European immigrants who made up the Catholic Church that I grew up in. While the U.S. has in no way experienced the sort of outright collapse that the Catholic Church throughout Europe has seen, it may not be doing as well as the numbers would seem to suggest. I’d be interested to know if there is anyway to verify this.
L
leah_laf
Guest
That is an absolutely beautiful post. I highly agree with the fact of making ourselves attractive in our qualities of virtue, joyfulness and gratitude, because others see and make their own free will decisions on joining, and wanting what we can have. The Church is full of many treasures, but non-Catholics and unfortunately some self-professed Catholics can’t see it because their eyes are blinded by the disrespect and uncharitable actions and words by so-called Catholics. It’s one thing to be an apologetic, but another totally different thing to be a Catholic who likes to entice mayhem and judge non-Catholics and Catholics alike when they are humans as well. Let those called to be apologetics do so. I must add everyone in the Faith is called to, but you must be at a certain point in your spiritual life to begin advocating and defending the Church properly, and not as an elementary age child going to a debate at a high school. In the meantime however, if everyone just practised what Jesus told us instead of preaching it all the time, we would begin on our first steps and pre-requisite of being Catholic, filled with gifts of the Holy Spirit and enlightened to perform every duty for the love of God and neighbor. I’m afraid too many people refer to Jesus in saying "Admonish the Sinner, Instruct the Ignorant, and conveniently forget the Counsel the Doubtful, Comfort the Sorrowful, Bear Wrongs Patiently, Forgive all Injuries, Pray for the Living and the Dead. I’m sorrowful on my return to the Church. Wish I had someone I could talk to about how to make things right in my daily life. And I’ve already spoken with a priest. But to be judged from members of a religion I want to go home to, just feels weird. Anyhow, my thoughts on this and I pray daily for everyone to feel peace. Great posts. I enjoyed them.
L
Leetoy
Guest
It is not easy in fact it is very difficult to live life as a priest for us who are lay people but once a person or persons studying to be priests are already there as priests, ordained, they are already priests, they are happy and enjoying their profession serving the Greatest Master our Lord Jesus Christ and our fellow men but I still would say that it is not easy being a priest. “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” - Matthew 16:18. Therefore, let us thank the Lord that He sent more and more labourers into the harvest, as in, “And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send labourers into his harvest.” - Luke 10:2.
P
phes3
Guest
For Leetoy I just add
L
Leetoy
Guest
The posts stating or questioning or attacking against the Catholic Church regarding Clergies numbers is I think questioning & distrusting the power of God. The Roman Catholic church is a church not founded by men but by Jesus & it has last for, I don’t even remember how long, for thousand or million of years I believe since St. Peter the First Pope. Our Lord Jesus said to St. Peter, “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” - Matthew 16:18. We don’t really even knew the exact numbers of the clergy. Though it is a right to ask, request but not attack instead of doing that why don’t we just pray. Have we prayed to the Lord of the harvest (Catholics/men) to send more labourers (Priests) lately?
“And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send labourers into his harvest.” - Luke 10:2. Do we remember that Jesus feeds thousands of people with only 5 loaves of bread and two fish Mark 6:38:44 - “38 He asked, ‘How many loaves have you? Go and see.’ And when they had found out they said, ‘Five, and two fish.’ 39 Then he ordered them to get all the people to sit down in groups on the green grass, 40 and they sat down on the ground in squares of hundreds and fifties. 41 Then he took the five loaves and the two fish, raised his eyes to heaven and said the blessing; then he broke the loaves and began handing them to his disciples to distribute among the people. He also shared out the two fish among them all. 42 They all ate as much as they wanted. 43 They collected twelve basketfuls of scraps of bread and pieces of fish. 44 Those who had eaten the loaves numbered five thousand men.” It would be like that in the Roman Catholic church, all will turn out well, we only have to pray & have Faith in God. Luke 17:6 - “6 The Lord replied, 'If you had faith like a mustard seed you could say to this mulberry tree, “Be uprooted and planted in the sea,” and it would obey you.”
“And he said to them: The harvest indeed is great, but the labourers are few. Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he send labourers into his harvest.” - Luke 10:2. Do we remember that Jesus feeds thousands of people with only 5 loaves of bread and two fish Mark 6:38:44 - “38 He asked, ‘How many loaves have you? Go and see.’ And when they had found out they said, ‘Five, and two fish.’ 39 Then he ordered them to get all the people to sit down in groups on the green grass, 40 and they sat down on the ground in squares of hundreds and fifties. 41 Then he took the five loaves and the two fish, raised his eyes to heaven and said the blessing; then he broke the loaves and began handing them to his disciples to distribute among the people. He also shared out the two fish among them all. 42 They all ate as much as they wanted. 43 They collected twelve basketfuls of scraps of bread and pieces of fish. 44 Those who had eaten the loaves numbered five thousand men.” It would be like that in the Roman Catholic church, all will turn out well, we only have to pray & have Faith in God. Luke 17:6 - “6 The Lord replied, 'If you had faith like a mustard seed you could say to this mulberry tree, “Be uprooted and planted in the sea,” and it would obey you.”
L
Leetoy
Guest
We cannot help if we questions and debate about this & we’ll not pray. For me I don’t even consider this topic to be important because it is very difficult or impossible for men to send labourers to the harvest but possible with God. The best thing to do for us who are just human and so imperfect is to Pray and Pray and believe in God can do great and mighty things.
F
fultonfish
Guest
If we get back to not eating meat on Friday [without that alternative sacrifice “stuff”], we will increase the numbers even more.
And if we get back to the Holy Days of Obligation [did your diocese skip the Feast of the Ascension?], we will increase even further.
The sooner we back away from trying to be Protestant, the quicker the number of Catholics will increase.
And then the next thing you know, we will start kneeling for Holy Communion! [But then I will have to wear Sunday shoes, so the holes in my soles don’t show!]
And if we get back to the Holy Days of Obligation [did your diocese skip the Feast of the Ascension?], we will increase even further.
The sooner we back away from trying to be Protestant, the quicker the number of Catholics will increase.
And then the next thing you know, we will start kneeling for Holy Communion! [But then I will have to wear Sunday shoes, so the holes in my soles don’t show!]
F
fultonfish
Guest
Sorry, I’m new and not doing this right.
But, to respond to a comment, I wandered into a rural church with only one weekday mass per week. And it was as full as on Sunday.
Seems that there is a tremendous thirst for the Catholic Church.
We need to get the priests back to teaching the basics at Mass. People want more.
But, to respond to a comment, I wandered into a rural church with only one weekday mass per week. And it was as full as on Sunday.
Seems that there is a tremendous thirst for the Catholic Church.
We need to get the priests back to teaching the basics at Mass. People want more.
- Status