Number of Italian pilgrims to Medjugorje 'falls by half' after Pope announces ruling [CH-UK]
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JohnJones
Guest
My Dad’s parish priest says one of the seers was lying from the beginning. However, no way could they get through all those scientific tests by lying. I think it is more of a case of one or more of the seers profiting and possibly being less than truthful about messages. Early on they did tests that showed they were in that state of ecstasy. I even saw Mirjana on youtube and the late afternoon sun kept going in her eyes Impossible to fake or lie to everybody but for all seers to continue a holy life, that is another story.
This is what happened at Conyers, Georgia. Initially the messages were free, and then they were sold in a book. Nobody is protected from Saton until they die. Just as Padre Pio was harassed by him near the end of his life. Saton is powerful and interferes on all levels at all times.
It will be interesting if any of the seers respond to the ruling.
This is what happened at Conyers, Georgia. Initially the messages were free, and then they were sold in a book. Nobody is protected from Saton until they die. Just as Padre Pio was harassed by him near the end of his life. Saton is powerful and interferes on all levels at all times.
It will be interesting if any of the seers respond to the ruling.
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KEP1983
Guest
Then how do you explain this? You’re not supposed to be able to react to stimuli while being in ecstasy.
And her excuse for her reaction was even worse than the reaction in the first place.
youtu.be/Idlczado4Oc
And her excuse for her reaction was even worse than the reaction in the first place.
youtu.be/Idlczado4Oc
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JohnJones
Guest
I prefer that they not be approved since I’d rather not fast on bread and water on Wed and Fri, but I just don’t get how 7 people can get away with making everything up. Yes, I saw that one video before. I figure somebody would try to repeat it. I did review some of the people in those commissions and some were real. Under tests they did this type of thing when they saw the apparition.
-poked with a pin
-blew a loud horn
-held a board in front
-flashed light in eyes
-voices become inaudible at the same time
I guess if you don’t see the test done on video, it’s a bunch of scientists colluding? It sure embarrasses the heck out of them all. I would be keen on hearing what some of them have to say. I bet some will be questioned in the Italian media.
Maybe this is a complete fraud. Medjugorje should have been put to bed right here:
Dr. Henri Joyeux and Fr. René Laurentin: “Scientific and Medical Studies of the Apparitions at Medjugorje”, Veritas Publications 1987
Here is an interview with Joyeux
Those things the seers could not fake I mentioned above are mentioned on various Medjugorje sites.
The question is how with modern science a complete fraud could get this far? I am sure media will question Dr. Henri Joyeux and Fr. René Laurentin. I am interested in their response.
No fasting! It’s Wednesday and I’m eating junk food. Yaaah!
-poked with a pin
-blew a loud horn
-held a board in front
-flashed light in eyes
-voices become inaudible at the same time
I guess if you don’t see the test done on video, it’s a bunch of scientists colluding? It sure embarrasses the heck out of them all. I would be keen on hearing what some of them have to say. I bet some will be questioned in the Italian media.
Maybe this is a complete fraud. Medjugorje should have been put to bed right here:
Dr. Henri Joyeux and Fr. René Laurentin: “Scientific and Medical Studies of the Apparitions at Medjugorje”, Veritas Publications 1987
Here is an interview with Joyeux
Those things the seers could not fake I mentioned above are mentioned on various Medjugorje sites.
The question is how with modern science a complete fraud could get this far? I am sure media will question Dr. Henri Joyeux and Fr. René Laurentin. I am interested in their response.
No fasting! It’s Wednesday and I’m eating junk food. Yaaah!
K
KEP1983
Guest
Yeah, ultimately we’ll just have to wait and see what the Pope decides.
The problem I have with your argument is that-- even if I were to grant that all of those tests were true-- a single failure during an alleged ecstasy would disprove the entire thing.
And we have that failure, on video tape. And knowing that she got caught flinching on video, she made up an excuse about Mary dropping the baby Jesus. That’s incredible.
Why would they flinch in the video but not in your referenced study? It seems to me that in the video I posted, she didn’t know what was coming, and thus flinched. In the evidence you posted, she knew it was coming and could hold still through the pain.
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JohnJones
Guest
No offence, but I don’t have a position here, so I don’t have an argument, it is just a question of how they got so far? The fact that in one case at least one subject was not in this ecstasy state does not disprove none of them are ever in ecstasy, but her excuse sure makes you not believe her.
Do you think it is possible to pass every test by faking it? The testers have to be a great collection of incompetents or they have some vested interest.
I don’t know if they had an EEG scan, but that seems impossible to fake. In the “Science Tests Faith” Fox News show 16 years ago, Catalia Rivas was given this test. You can’t fake that test. Just as an aside, her dictations for Jesus did get Bishop approval: Bishop Jose Oscar Brahona C.
Obispo de San Vicente, El Salvador, C. A.
March 2, 2004
(From loveandmercy.org/)
I hope that after the official ruling we are allowed to discuss this concept of how these people could fool so many experts for so long. There is a lesson to be learned here.
Do you think it is possible to pass every test by faking it? The testers have to be a great collection of incompetents or they have some vested interest.
I don’t know if they had an EEG scan, but that seems impossible to fake. In the “Science Tests Faith” Fox News show 16 years ago, Catalia Rivas was given this test. You can’t fake that test. Just as an aside, her dictations for Jesus did get Bishop approval: Bishop Jose Oscar Brahona C.
Obispo de San Vicente, El Salvador, C. A.
March 2, 2004
(From loveandmercy.org/)
I hope that after the official ruling we are allowed to discuss this concept of how these people could fool so many experts for so long. There is a lesson to be learned here.
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KEP1983
Guest
They certainly didn’t fool every expert. Most importantly, they didn’t fool the local bishop, and they won’t fool the vatican.
As far as if they could have been lying… well, there’s a lot of money to be made in hotels and travel to that place. All of the legit visionaries of church history didn’t profit off of their visions. Most, if not all, lived poor lives on convents and such. Instead, these visionaries are living it up very wealthy in a very poor area. They’re like the Prosperity Gospel preachers of Catholicism.
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commenter
Guest
There is no “standard template” for what a “real” private revelation, or a “real” ecstasy or vision, is supposed to be. It’s not like experts have a universally accepted APGAR scale they can use to objectively rate Medjugorge - say, above 5.0 is authentic.
The true measurement is the discernment of the Holy See. I trust the Magisterium’s judgement, when that judgement is given. As to why the Magisterium has waited so long, that is because we live in a horizontal age, government by committee. Everybody has to sound everyone else’s feelings, about everything. In the days of Pope Pius XII, this would have been definitively ruled in, or ruled out, much sooner. I am not saying the current way is better or worse, but that is the current way.
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JohnJones
Guest
Here is somewhat of an explanation.
From what I read, no EEG test was done!
Also the other tests were really a joke. A number of specialists in their field did state there is nothing supernatural.
Nothing here about an EEG.
Anyway, I find it amazing Mirjana could keep this up. If she is always acting, she is fantastic at it. She produces tears and stares into the glare of the sun.
The article at miraclesceptic.com mentions Nancy Fowler at Conyers. From what I read she did show supernatural activity in an EEG but her messages were very odd. I wouldn’t get much into that here, but where ever Jesus is, the devil follows closely.
So as far as studies go, the ‘devil is in the detail’.
From what I read, no EEG test was done!
Also the other tests were really a joke. A number of specialists in their field did state there is nothing supernatural.
Nothing here about an EEG.
Anyway, I find it amazing Mirjana could keep this up. If she is always acting, she is fantastic at it. She produces tears and stares into the glare of the sun.
The article at miraclesceptic.com mentions Nancy Fowler at Conyers. From what I read she did show supernatural activity in an EEG but her messages were very odd. I wouldn’t get much into that here, but where ever Jesus is, the devil follows closely.
So as far as studies go, the ‘devil is in the detail’.
C
commenter
Guest
From the link in the earlier post:
“We, at Caritas, have never concerned ourselves in regards to the Church approving Medjugorje. Our belief is so strong in Our Lady’s apparitions that we have confidence the Church will approve Medjugorje. In fact, Medjugorje is in every diocese of the world.”
The link goes on to describe how even the Church’s non approval (for now) is itself part of God’s overall plan! This is what happens, people who had originally relied on the Magisterium to evaluate private revelation, later trust the private revelation to evaluate the Magisterium.
A friend, who supports Medjugorje, complained that if Lourdes or Fatima had been subjected to this degree of scrutiny, they would never have been approved. Maybe true. But at the time of Lourdes and Fatima, the Magisterium was accepted by the vast majority of Catholics. Non Catholic Christians, and most non Christians, coincided with most of what the Magisterium taught.
Today we live in a different world. It was one thing for the Church, in the past, to approve a private revelation already concluded, at a time when people understood the difference between public and private revelation. It is another thing to approve a revelation, in today’s anti-Magisterium climate, when you have no idea what new disclosures will be made later. If the Church moves toward closure now on Medjugorje, it will reduce the chances of it becoming a private Magisterium.
“We, at Caritas, have never concerned ourselves in regards to the Church approving Medjugorje. Our belief is so strong in Our Lady’s apparitions that we have confidence the Church will approve Medjugorje. In fact, Medjugorje is in every diocese of the world.”
The link goes on to describe how even the Church’s non approval (for now) is itself part of God’s overall plan! This is what happens, people who had originally relied on the Magisterium to evaluate private revelation, later trust the private revelation to evaluate the Magisterium.
A friend, who supports Medjugorje, complained that if Lourdes or Fatima had been subjected to this degree of scrutiny, they would never have been approved. Maybe true. But at the time of Lourdes and Fatima, the Magisterium was accepted by the vast majority of Catholics. Non Catholic Christians, and most non Christians, coincided with most of what the Magisterium taught.
Today we live in a different world. It was one thing for the Church, in the past, to approve a private revelation already concluded, at a time when people understood the difference between public and private revelation. It is another thing to approve a revelation, in today’s anti-Magisterium climate, when you have no idea what new disclosures will be made later. If the Church moves toward closure now on Medjugorje, it will reduce the chances of it becoming a private Magisterium.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
I read a book on Medjugore once. I wasn’t Catholic then and did not
realize it had not been approved.
realize it had not been approved.
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J_Peterson
Guest
Has she been checked by a doctor? I don’t think medical causes should be dismissed (mental illness, tumor, epilepsy, etc.).
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JohnJones
Guest
They have all been checked by doctors at some point but I don’t know how relevant the tests are.
Note Mirjana claimed to meet the pope. I’m guessing Pope John Paul 2. She quoted him when speaking to him alone “I know everything, I follow everything. Ask Pilgrims to pray for my intentions, and protect Medjugorje because Medjujgorje is a hope for the entire world.”
She is asked about medical testing but gives no reference as to who did the test but made reference to the fact that their brains showed they were having a supernatural experience. For a short definition of the brain states read this.
The brain waves in the study were nothing special. Just alpha state, compare that to Catalia Rivas [high amplitude] delta waves “very deep, transcendental meditation where awareness is fully detached”. So although Marjana seems very convincing in her many youtube videos there isn’t much convincing evidence.
The lack of cooperation of the ‘gospa’ seems odd as was mentioned in the one article above. I would like to see a reputable neuroscientist test Mirjana.
If anyone gets more detail on any scientific tests, please post the link.
User “commenter” made some interesting points. In the age of the internet you have this situation.
One other point is the messages I have read have been nothing exceptional but rather what one might expect. Much repetition but so what, prayer is repetition. In the end does Medjugorje change anything? Less fasting without it.
Note Mirjana claimed to meet the pope. I’m guessing Pope John Paul 2. She quoted him when speaking to him alone “I know everything, I follow everything. Ask Pilgrims to pray for my intentions, and protect Medjugorje because Medjujgorje is a hope for the entire world.”
She is asked about medical testing but gives no reference as to who did the test but made reference to the fact that their brains showed they were having a supernatural experience. For a short definition of the brain states read this.
The brain waves in the study were nothing special. Just alpha state, compare that to Catalia Rivas [high amplitude] delta waves “very deep, transcendental meditation where awareness is fully detached”. So although Marjana seems very convincing in her many youtube videos there isn’t much convincing evidence.
The lack of cooperation of the ‘gospa’ seems odd as was mentioned in the one article above. I would like to see a reputable neuroscientist test Mirjana.
If anyone gets more detail on any scientific tests, please post the link.
User “commenter” made some interesting points. In the age of the internet you have this situation.
One other point is the messages I have read have been nothing exceptional but rather what one might expect. Much repetition but so what, prayer is repetition. In the end does Medjugorje change anything? Less fasting without it.
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JohnJones
Guest
Okay, this is my last post. EWTN is a trusted source.
It is absolutely amazing that it grew so big despite the church firmly stating there is nothing supernatural happening here.
Lesson learned: Always look for bishop approval first.
It appears the devil can claim a massive victory here.
However we are all so forturnate to have Pope Francis.
It is absolutely amazing that it grew so big despite the church firmly stating there is nothing supernatural happening here.
Lesson learned: Always look for bishop approval first.
It appears the devil can claim a massive victory here.
However we are all so forturnate to have Pope Francis.
7
7_Sorrows
Guest
I have friends who visited there.Okay, this is my last post. EWTN is a trusted source.
It is absolutely amazing that it grew so big despite the church firmly stating there is nothing supernatural happening here.
Lesson learned: Always look for bishop approval first.
It appears the devil can claim a massive victory here.
However we are all so forturnate to have Pope Francis.
M
McCartney
Guest
B
Beautiful
Guest
maryslandmovie.com is based on the spirituality at Medjugorje. Anyone see this movie?
I’ve heard about Medjugorje on and off for so long. Is there a Papal ruling on this?
I’ve heard about Medjugorje on and off for so long. Is there a Papal ruling on this?
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Expatreprocedit
Guest
Interesting. We in the Orthodox Church have been fasting on Wed and Fri (from meat and dairy) for the history of the Church. It’s also prescribed in the Didache. The apparitions may be worth a second look.
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