Numbers Game on Paul and Peter

[JoeyWarren]

Atemi, the Holy Spirit even calls Simon Peter the First and foremost:

Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

The Greek word used for first:

prōtos
*pro’-tos
*Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

**G4253
**πρό
pro
*pro
*A primary preposition; “fore”, that is, in front of, prior (figuratively superior) to. In compounds it retains the same significations: - above, ago, before, or ever. In compounds it retains the same significations.

 

[exoflare]

“Who is mentioned the most number of times” is just a silly argument to begin with. It’s as simple as that.

 

[Tom]

“Who is mentioned the most number of times” is just a silly argument to begin with. It’s as simple as that.

Absolutely correct, we need to read the references to find Peter is the first leader. Numbers of mention prove nothing, the Word of God shows Peters’ primacy.

 

[Atemi]

“Who is mentioned the most number of times” is just a silly argument to begin with. It’s as simple as that.

Agreed. I think the whole exercise is silly, but Joey likes it.

He uses language like:

• “Peter still beats Paul”
• “Peter still beats out Paul”
• “Peter comes up on top”
• “Peter beats him out”

Huh?

And then he says this is a non-Catholic hang-up.

Obviously, no.

…

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy , I don’t know bout you but I consider Paul an apostle!
And scripture catholic fails to point out they didn’t use Paul in the equation.

He’s baaaaa-ack!

Good to see you again, Dean.

Oh, yes…I do consider Paul an apostle…part of the expanding episcopate of the early Church which began with the Apostles and continued with the Bishops via Apostolic Succession.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Atemi]

Because the first proof from the unwitting followers of Satan point out first that Paul is mentioned more than Peter. Which by the way, I have proven to be false in the first post.

The first person to mention any Apostle being mentioned more than another Apostle in the other thread was a Catholic.

The first person to mention any Apostle being mentioned more than another Apostle in this thread was a Catholic.

There is a definite pattern here.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Agreed. I think the whole exercise is silly, but Joey likes it.

He uses language like:

• “Peter still beats Paul”
• “Peter still beats out Paul”
• “Peter comes up on top”
• “Peter beats him out”
  Huh?

And then he says this is a non-Catholic hang-up.

Obviously, no…

You have missed the point entirely.

Catholics are prepared to point out the fallacy when non-Catholics attempt to discredit the papacy.

And THAT happens all the time.

But hey, either way…Peter was named as the head of the Church by Jesus as the Bible shows, and we can trace the line of Apostolic Succession from Peter all the way down to Benedict XVI as history shows.

Now, can you claim anything remotely similar to this for your own faith community? If Paul is more important to you, then surely you can prove some type of succession from him, can’t you?

Or maybe you date your denomination from the time of the reformers…do you have any traceable lineage back to the 16th century?

Or maybe you attend a house church or one that meets in a store front of a strip mall…so your heritage is from when? The 1980’s? 1990’s? Last year?

Food for thought. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

The first person to mention any Apostle being mentioned more than another Apostle in the other thread was a Catholic.

The first person to mention any Apostle being mentioned more than another Apostle in this thread was a Catholic.

There is a definite pattern here.

Okay, Atemi…I’m calling you out on this one.

In the thread entitled “A Question About Peter Being the Rock”, the following was posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishopite

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Earlier you used the arguement that the Holy Spirit used Paul more than any of the other Apostles thus attempting to show that he is more relevant than was Peter or perhaps equal to him in authority, yet when someone uses the same type of argument showing Peter’s name mentioned above the others (including Paul) you say it "does not prove nor teach [Peters] “supremacy?”

A simple search on Blue Letter Bible brought up 158 references to “Peter” and 164 references to “Paul.”

This can be adjusted with a little homework, but it seems clear to me that “Paul” is mentioned more by the Holy Spirit in the NT than Peter.

Now…who first brought up the NUMBER of times that Peter or Paul are mentioned in the New Testament?

You did in the 164th post of that thread.

Why? To discredit the Papacy (and Peter as the Rock).

You see? No Catholic even mentioned this issue until you brought it up even though we were engaged in a debate about whether Peter is “the rock”. If we’re so darned quick to bring it up all the time, how come the numbers never came up until you mentioned it first?

Catholics are prepared to share the facts with you so that you may see and believe. The Bible and the facts of history support the Catholic Church’s position on Peter and the popes.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Randy_Carson]

The first person to mention any Apostle being mentioned more than another Apostle in this thread was a Catholic.

There is a definite pattern here.

Okay, Atemi…I’m taking issue with this one.

In the thread entitled “A Question About Peter Being the Rock”, the following was posted by Apophasis:

Quote:
Originally Posted by apophasis
*The problem is, I have yet to be shown where the doctrine of the “Supremacy of Peter” is even inferred in Scripture - much less then the perpetuity of that which is purportedly “inferred.” *

*Something as central as the “Supremacy of Peter” and all the power that the Roman church claims is hers through perpetuity must of necessity rest on greater support than mere “inference.” *

*The uniqueness of true Christianity is that it rests on divine revelation, not human imagination or what one “thinks” is inferred. *

I’m still waiting for someone to show me where it is demonstrated in Scripture that the other Apostles clearly understood Jesus’ words in Matt. 16:18-19 as meaning Peter’s “supremacy” over them all as well all the Church He was going

Mannyfit75 sought to provide the evidence that was requested and he gave numerous examples including stating briefly that Peter is mentioned more frequently than anyone else. This was only a small part of his overall argument.

Then Bishopite commented on Apophasis’ dismissal of this argument and you jumped in as follows:

Originally Posted by Bishopite

*Earlier you used the arguement that the Holy Spirit used Paul more than any of the other Apostles thus attempting to show that he is more relevant than was Peter or perhaps equal to him in authority, yet when someone uses the same type of argument showing Peter’s name mentioned above the others (including Paul) you say it "does not prove nor teach [Peters] “supremacy?” *

A simple search on Blue Letter Bible brought up 158 references to “Peter” and 164 references to “Paul.”

This can be adjusted with a little homework, but it seems clear to me that “Paul” is mentioned more by the Holy Spirit in the NT than Peter.

Clearly, you thought you had some skinny on this issue that YOU wanted to demonstrate, and you did so in the 164th post of that thread.

Why? To discredit the Papacy (and Peter as the Rock).

Now that your numbers have been demonstrated by JoeyWarren to be inaccurate, you want to dismiss the argument by whining that we bring it up all the time.

Catholics are prepared to share the facts with you so that you may see and believe. The Bible and the facts of history support the Catholic Church’s position on Peter and the popes.

Hope this helps. :tiphat:

 

[Atemi]

Atemi, the Holy Spirit even calls Simon Peter the First and foremost:

Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

The Greek word used for first:

prōtos
*pro’-tos
*Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

**G4253
**πρό
pro
*pro
*A primary preposition; “fore”, that is, in front of, prior (figuratively superior) to. In compounds it retains the same significations: - above, ago, before, or ever. In compounds it retains the same significations.

Hello Joey.

If you look at the verse carefully, you will see that the Author listed Peter and Andrew as the first, not just Peter alone.

This is because they were the first. That is the record of Scripture.

…

 

[Atemi]

Okay, Atemi…I’m taking issue with this one.

Just this one?

In the thread entitled “A Question About Peter Being the Rock”, the following was posted by Apophasis:

Mannyfit75 sought to provide the evidence that was requested and he gave numerous examples including stating briefly that Peter is mentioned more frequently than anyone else. This was only a small part of his overall argument.

Irrelevant.

It does not matter why.

The fact is that it was a Catholic who saw fit to initially introduce the “name game” into the mix. It was not any non-Catholics as implied elsewhere.

And it was another Catholic who started this thread to prove, yet again, that Peter is mentioned more than Paul…

Clearly, you thought you had some skinny on this issue that YOU wanted to demonstrate, and you did so in the 164th post of that thread.

Why? To discredit the Papacy (and Peter as the Rock).

No. Such a little tidbit has no relation to the papacy at all.

I only responded to discredit the argument itself.

Luckily, even many Catholics can see that these name games are silly.

When Scripture Catholic, for example, gets the same understanding, then maybe these threads will go away in time.

Now that your numbers have been demonstrated by JoeyWarren to be inaccurate, you want to dismiss the argument by whining that we bring it up all the time.

No.

I am “whining” because he wants to arbitrarily count names as to pad the numbers.

He even proposed that the entire book of the Acts of the Apostles be removed from the discussion!

LOL.

Catholics are prepared to share the facts with you so that you may see and believe. The Bible and the facts of history support the Catholic Church’s position on Peter and the popes.

Thank you, Randy.

I am already familiar with the RC claim.

…

 

[Atemi]

For some fun, I counted each mention by name by hand.

The problem is is that there are as many ways to count these names as there are to count ballots with hanging chads. Since there are as many ways to count these mentions as there are responses to this thread, I picked one method.

1. I did it manually…by eye. No software counts.
2. I counted every book by the same Author (God)…the entire NT as I stated in the last thread.
3. I counted every mention of each Apostle’s name.
4. I only eliminated double usage mentions:
   “Simon Peter”…“Simon, also known as Peter”…“Saul, also known as Paul” etc…
5. I counted all variants (Peter, Simon, Cephas, Kephas, Saul, Paul).
6. I eliminated all non-Apostles with similar names from the count.
7. I counted multiple mentions in a single verse.

The result:

Peter: 211 times mentioned by the Holy Spirit in His Word.
Paul: 239 times mentioned by the Holy Spirit in His Word.

It was surely a novel exercise.

How else can we now count these chads?

…

 

[Atemi]

This particular line was getting lost here.

I respond to your count again here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2073563&postcount=1

Let’s do a search the other way by where we search for individual instances.

Simon is found in 71 verses
Peter is found in 157 verses
Cephas is found in 6 verses

Paul is found in 159 verses
Saul is found 25 verses

Simon, Peter, Cephas = 234
Paul and Saul = 184

Peter still beats out Paul

I did the same search with Esword:

Peter = 162 Hits
Simon = 68 Hits (76 total hits includes 8 for the other Simons mentioned earlier
Cephas = 6 Hits

Paul 162 Hits
Saul 26 Hits

Paul, Simon, Cephas = 236 instances
Paul, Saul = 188 instances

Peter still beats Paul.

Furthermore of the 6 instances of Cephas, Paul uses it 5 times and John once.

Recap:

Ignoring repeat hits and going by verse count alone:

Peter, Simon, Cephas = 192
Paul, Saul = 180

My database search including multiple instances

Peter, Simon, Cephas = 234
Paul, Saul = 184

Esword Search on Hits

Paul, Simon, Cephas = 236 instances
Paul, Saul = 188 instances

no matter how you slice it and dice it, Peter comes up on top.

Should I do some statistical analysis on this? What say you?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Mark 9:
33They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, “What were you arguing about on the road?”

34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest.

 

[Atemi]

Mark 9:
33They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, “What were you arguing about on the road?”

34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest.

Exactly. The Apostles made this error again and again.

Many today have not learned that lesson in 2000 years.

 

[JoeyWarren]

For some fun, I counted each mention by name by hand.

The problem is is that there are as many ways to count these names as there are to count ballots with hanging chads. Since there are as many ways to count these mentions as there are responses to this thread, I picked one method.

1. I did it manually…by eye. No software counts.
2. I counted every book by the same Author (God)…the entire NT as I stated in the last thread.
3. I counted every mention of each Apostle’s name.
4. I only eliminated double usage mentions:
   “Simon Peter”…“Simon, also known as Peter”…“Saul, also known as Paul” etc…
5. I counted all variants (Peter, Simon, Cephas, Kephas, Saul, Paul).
6. I eliminated all non-Apostles with similar names from the count.
7. I counted multiple mentions in a single verse.

The result:

Peter: 211 times mentioned by the Holy Spirit in His Word.
Paul: 239 times mentioned by the Holy Spirit in His Word.

It was surely a novel exercise.

How else can we now count these chads?

…

You’re method is prone to errors:

There is no way Paul or Saul shows up 239 Times:

Verse count is only 182 as follows.

Show me what verses I am mssing.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Act_7:58; Act_8:1; Act_8:3; Act_9:1; Act_9:4; Act_9:8; Act_9:11; Act_9:17; Act_9:19; Act_9:22; Act_9:24; Act_9:26; Act_11:25; Act_11:30; Act_12:25; Act_13:1; Act_13:2; Act_13:7; Act_13:9; Act_13:13; Act_13:16; Act_13:21; Act_13:43; Act_13:45; Act_13:46; Act_13:50; Act_14:5; Act_14:9; Act_14:11; Act_14:12; Act_14:14; Act_14:19; Act_15:2; Act_15:12; Act_15:22; Act_15:25; Act_15:35; Act_15:36; Act_15:38; Act_15:40; Act_16:3; Act_16:9; Act_16:14; Act_16:17; Act_16:18; Act_16:19; Act_16:25; Act_16:28; Act_16:29; Act_16:36; Act_16:37; Act_17:2; Act_17:4; Act_17:5; Act_17:10; Act_17:13; Act_17:14; Act_17:15; Act_17:16; Act_17:22; Act_17:33; Act_18:1; Act_18:5; Act_18:9; Act_18:12; Act_18:14; Act_18:18; Act_19:1; Act_19:4; Act_19:6; Act_19:11; Act_19:13; Act_19:15; Act_19:21; Act_19:26; Act_19:29; Act_19:30; Act_20:1; Act_20:7; Act_20:9; Act_20:10; Act_20:13; Act_20:16; Act_20:37; Act_21:4; Act_21:8; Act_21:11; Act_21:13; Act_21:18; Act_21:26; Act_21:29; Act_21:30; Act_21:32; Act_21:37; Act_21:39; Act_21:40; Act_22:7; Act_22:13; Act_22:25; Act_22:28; Act_22:30; Act_23:1; Act_23:3; Act_23:5; Act_23:6; Act_23:10; Act_23:11; Act_23:12; Act_23:14; Act_23:16; Act_23:17; Act_23:18; Act_23:20; Act_23:24; Act_23:31; Act_23:33; Act_24:1; Act_24:10; Act_24:23; Act_24:24; Act_24:26; Act_24:27; Act_25:2; Act_25:4; Act_25:6; Act_25:7; Act_25:9; Act_25:10; Act_25:14; Act_25:19; Act_25:21; Act_25:23; Act_26:1; Act_26:14; Act_26:24; Act_26:28; Act_26:29; Act_27:1; Act_27:3; Act_27:9; Act_27:11; Act_27:21; Act_27:24; Act_27:31; Act_27:33; Act_27:43; Act_28:3; Act_28:8; Act_28:15; Act_28:16; Act_28:17; Act_28:25; Act_28:30; Rom_1:1; 1Co_1:1; 1Co_1:12; 1Co_1:13; 1Co_3:4; 1Co_3:5; 1Co_3:22; 1Co_16:21; 2Co_1:1; 2Co_10:1; Gal_1:1; Gal_5:2; Eph_1:1; Eph_3:1; Phi_1:1; Col_1:1; Col_1:23; Col_4:18; 1Th_1:1; 1Th_2:18; 2Th_1:1; 2Th_3:17; 1Ti_1:1; 2Ti_1:1; Tit_1:1; Phm_1:1; Phm_1:9; Phm_1:19; 2Pe_3:15;

182 verses 191 hits.

191 - 182 = 9 verses where the names are repeated.

You claim 239.

239 -182 = 57

Show me these 57 other verses.

What would be other variations on Paul or Saul.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Atemi wrote:
mentioned by the Holy Spirit in His Word.

I guess you are under the impression that the Holy Spirit dictated to the Human every single word that is written? That the Human Authors were nothing but automaton monkeys whom had no idea what they were writing?

If so, should I start a new thread on this?

Becaue we can cover the inconsistencies the Holy Spirit has given. If the Holy Spirit had 100% control and the Human instruments the Holy Spirit used to generate the written Word had 0% control.

Care to go there?

We can start with what was nailed up on the Cross as sign.

Each of the Gospels tells us something different was written.

Still care to go there with a new thread? I am game.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Exactly. The Apostles made this error again and again.

Many today have not learned that lesson in 2000 years.

I understand that both you and MFM have problems with the Papacy. Despite your best attempts to explain it away, you still have those pesky verses and the weight of history testifying against you.

As for this passage, let’s look at the full context:

They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, “What were you arguing about on the road?” 34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all.”

Notice that Jesus does not say, “No one can be the greatest because you are all equal in the Church.” Instead, he explained that the leader must be the servant of all.

The Pope wields tremendous authority, but that is balanced by tremendous responsibility, and his life is spent in service to the Church and his fellow bishops.

I doubt you would want to live your life with as little personal freedom as the Pope has.

 

[Atemi]

You’re method is prone to errors:

There is no way Paul or Saul shows up 239 Times:

You are right. My methodology on my last count was messed up. May I blame fatigue?

Nah.

I carefully recounted the Greek again by hand.

Using the same parameters mentioned before, this is what I got:

Saul: 16
Saoul: 8
Paul: 163

Cephas/Kephas: 6
Simon: 16
Peter: 161

Paul total: 187

Peter total: 183

Close…