Numerical discrepancies in the Koran!

[Khalfan]

It makes as much sense as your response to it. Sorry, you seem not to have read Kadaveri’s response to my argument - he is a Muslim guy too -, and your answers naturally illustrate disagreement.

You also forget that there are two surahs challenging non-Muslims to forge one chapter whereas only one surah challenging to forge ten chapters. More to the point, the order of the alleged revelation of those chapters clearly indicate that Allah first added to the number of the chapters to be forged, but then mysteriously got back to the previous number. (this is how it goes in the Koran: challenge to forge one surah, subsequently ten surahs, finally one surah again! )

If no one could have written one single surah similar to Allah’s book, why the challenge to produce ten of them??? Evidently, there is a problem with the logic in these verses. If I challenge someone to produce ten chapters, this entails that they have tried and managed to produce at least one chapter!

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

Good. That is a good one. I don’t know If Kadavery is a Muslim. I didn’t disagree him. He explained the situations. You are not interested in that even after you are an ex-Muslim and you may know that many verses Mohamed (SAWS) got was on critical situations where he needed assistance of GOD. God gave questions, answers, challenges and solutions accordingly. God gave questions and asked Mohamed (SAWS) to ask the people (like it is in Surah ARRAHMAN) whenever it needed. So Mohamed (SAWS) did. God gave the challenge whenever needed to produce a book like Quran to those allegers who ever said Quran is manmade.

This verse is used against allegers, million or billion times over last 1500 years. Does that mean a million or billion verses have to be produced, while there is only 114 chapters in Quran? The number of chapter or verse is not the point in the question. The question is to reproduce anything like it is in Quran. The Quran didn’t come to me or you. The one that got this verse from GOD is Mohamed (SAWS). He is supposed to explain us what each verse means. We have hadeeses. We have tafseers. Any one (including you) can interpret the words as he want like the Christians do with Bible. But in Islam self interpretations have no value.

I cannot restrict you that you ask questions this way, you should challenge this way; because then only I can answer. That’s illogic. Instead, I can try to answer you in whichever way you ask. I can try to achieve any challenge you make.

In four situations, four challenges came. At that time, it was one challenge to those who have been asked. But now it is four challenges to all of us including you. All together it gives you one message. If Mohamed (SAWS) –a man could make such a book, you can make it too. Any one can make it. The whole book? May be ten surahs? Even one surah? Try that instead complaining, “YOUR QUESTION IS WRONG. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO ASK LIKE THIS”

 

[Khalfan]

Maybe a Christian apologist or a simple Christian studying his/her Bible well can help you in clearing all those discrepancies. Maybe you do not understand Christianity well. Be honest to its teachings, whatever you are now a Muslim or Jew or anything else. Learn details of the points wherever you feel dispute. Be honest to yourself at least when you ask a question. Be honest to accept the answer when you are wrong. You may have a reason. Others too have reason. Fair dialogues will help to understand the truth.

My dear, I am… I am trying. I have some questions from the Bible. I am already online with three apologist. Thanks for the advise.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Muslims to see that the different number of surahs in the challenge is a real problem for Islam because it proves Allah cannot be divine. Skirting around the issue with apologetics will not make the problem go away because the question remains, why would a divine supreme deity change his challenge willy-nilly? Why alter the challenge from 1 to 10 surahs unless the initial challenge had been met. One would have thought a supreme all-powerful deity would be at least consistent. Ooppss I forgot Allah is anything but consistent. One would have thought a supreme all-powerful deity would have some foresight. Oopps I forgot Allah had no foresight with all the situational verses he had to make.

Chau,
Cid

 

[Kadaveri]

Funnily enough, I’ve still yet to have anyone give be a reasonable explanation as how Matthew 12:40 can be reconciled with Jesus (as) being crucified on Friday evening and resurrected on Sunday morning.

Still, I’m not going to start creating threads like “Numerical discrepancies in the Bible”, it’s puerile and pointless…

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Dear Kadaveri,
Please check out what a ‘tu quoque’ argument is and why it is not a valid form of argument. In fact, I personally think anyone who engages in it has tacitly admitted he or she cannot defend the original charge.

Hasta luego,
Rodrigo

 

[Angelos]

This verse is used against allegers, million or billion times over last 1500 years. Does that mean a million or billion verses have to be produced, while there is only 114 chapters in Quran? The number of chapter or verse is not the point in the question. The question is to reproduce anything like it is in Quran. The Quran didn’t come to me or you. The one that got this verse from GOD is Mohamed (SAWS). He is supposed to explain us what each verse means. We have hadeeses. We have tafseers. Any one (including you) can interpret the words as he want like the Christians do with Bible. But in Islam self interpretations have no value.

I partly agree. It is true that the number of verses is not the point in question - so no need to demand the forgery of millions of verses as u state -, but the number of chapters is the point in question since four verses in your scripture brought up the same challenge: one gave no specific number of the chapters to be forged, two demanded the forgery of one surah, and one other asked non-believers to produce ten surahs to prove their claims. Apparently, these numbers indicate inconsistency, and none of the answers to my question has been able to solve the problem so far.

In four situations, four challenges came. At that time, it was one challenge to those who have been asked. But now it is four challenges to all of us including you. All together it gives you one message. If Mohamed (SAWS) –a man could make such a book, you can make it too. Any one can make it. The whole book? May be ten surahs? Even one surah? Try that instead complaining, “YOUR QUESTION IS WRONG. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO ASK LIKE THIS”

It gives everyone the same message, but not the same number! Sth wrong with the content of that message… Let me repeat (hopefully for the last time!) that I am NOT interested in the logical analysis of the challenge in question. Were I eager to know the strong or weak points of the challenge, I would ask my question this way: “WHY should I succumb to the challenge of the Koran to be able to prove its human origin? WHY should I make efforts to write a long book like the Koran when I can accomplish the same task of demonstrating its human origin by highlighting all sorts of discrepancies within it???”

Taking the short-cut is the best!

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

 

[Khalfan]

It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Muslims to see that the different number of surahs in the challenge is a real problem for Islam because it proves Allah cannot be divine. Skirting around the issue with apologetics will not make the problem go away because the question remains, why would a divine supreme deity change his challenge willy-nilly? Why alter the challenge from 1 to 10 surahs unless the initial challenge had been met. One would have thought a supreme all-powerful deity would be at least consistent. Ooppss I forgot Allah is anything but consistent. One would have thought a supreme all-powerful deity would have some foresight. Oopps I forgot Allah had no foresight with all the situational verses he had to make.

Chau,
Cid

My Dear,

Don’t mix any other theology with Islam. Do you think everythink is preplanned? Think abuot it’s logic. If everything is preplanned, there is no point in judgement, there is no point in putting some to heaven and some for punishment, since everyone’s deeds were preplanned. GOD is not that stupid, and we are not preplanned mechanical pupets. I told you, the challeges were situational. Read chapter 111. You wont understand anything untill you know the situation. There are many verses you wont understand untill you undersatnd the situation. By god’s grace, we have a large collection of original documents which gives us the details of each and every situation in the life of Prophet. That’s a historical fact. No one can deny. It is upto you, whether you want to know him or not. If you chose to know him, still you have choice, whether you want to know him from an anti-islamist or an Islamic scholar.

It is your assumption that, the challenge for one chapter had been met. Do you have evidence? I have evidence that it never met. The history. Remember, Islam not works on assumptions.

God indeed knows the future. But nothing is preplanned as he have given the full right to chose, and the choices. And it is indeed GOD, that helps you to achieve your choice. Just remember you will be responsible for your choice. Not your father or son.

Think logic before you make any statement.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

khalfan:

Don’t mix any other theology with Islam. Do you think everythink is preplanned? Think abuot it’s logic. If everything is preplanned, there is no point in judgement, there is no point in putting some to heaven and some for punishment, since everyone’s deeds were preplanned. GOD is not that stupid, and we are not preplanned mechanical pupets. I told you, the challeges were situational. Read chapter 111. You wont understand anything untill you know the situation. There are many verses you wont understand untill you undersatnd the situation. By god’s grace, we have a large collection of original documents which gives us the details of each and every situation in the life of Prophet. That’s a historical fact. No one can deny. It is upto you, whether you want to know him or not. If you chose to know him, still you have choice, whether you want to know him from an anti-islamist or an Islamic scholar.

What has this to do with Allah’s changing challenge?

khalfan:

It is your assumption that, the challenge for one chapter had been met. Do you have evidence? I have evidence that it never met. The history. Remember, Islam not works on assumptions.

Logically a supposition is unevidenced. That is what I had already stated.

khalfan:

God indeed knows the future. But nothing is preplanned as he have given the full right to chose, and the choices. And it is indeed GOD, that helps you to achieve your choice. Just remember you will be responsible for your choice. Not your father or son.

Think logic before you make any statement.

I’m an atheist so you’re not making sense to me.

You have yet to show why Allah should change his challenge. If his challenge of one surah had not been met why change it to 10?

 

[Khalfan]

I partly agree. It is true that the number of verses is not the point in question - so no need to demand the forgery of millions of verses as u state -, but the number of chapters is the point in question since four verses in your scripture brought up the same challenge: one gave no specific number of the chapters to be forged, two demanded the forgery of one surah, and one other asked non-believers to produce ten surahs to prove their claims. Apparently, these numbers indicate inconsistency, and none of the answers to my question has been able to solve the problem so far.

It gives everyone the same message, but not the same number! Sth wrong with the content of that message… Let me repeat (hopefully for the last time!) that I am NOT interested in the logical analysis of the challenge in question. Were I eager to know the strong or weak points of the challenge, I would ask my question this way: “WHY should I succumb to the challenge of the Koran to be able to prove its human origin? WHY should I make efforts to write a long book like the Koran when I can accomplish the same task of demonstrating its human origin by highlighting all sorts of discrepancies within it???”

Taking the short-cut is the best!

Peace to you,
Angelos N.

Thank you. This is what Quran had to prove by those challenge that, it is impossible to write a book, even ten chapters, even just one chapter like Quran. My dear, all those allegers had some reasons and the challenge remains unaccomplished for last 1500 years. Now try some other numerical discrepancy. At last all those gonna be proved illogical.

 

[Khalfan]

What has this to do with Allah’s changing challenge?

The challenge was not changed or revised since it was not done to the same people.

Logically a supposition is unevidenced. That is what I had already stated.

Then it is just an assumption; Just a comment.

I’m an atheist so you’re not making sense to me.

I am sorry. I didn’t know that.

You have yet to show why Allah should change his challenge. If his challenge of one surah had not been met why change it to 10?

I think you have to go to the first page where Kadavery explains the situations for each challenge. Each challenge was to different people according to their own allegation. Since it was from GOD as part of Quran, Mohamed couldn’t exclude it from Quran. Hope that answers.

 

[Angelos]

Question number 3

How many rising points does the Sun have in Islamic cosmology? (One question with three different answers!!!)

Answer 1: The Koran teaches in many chapters that there’s only one rising and setting point of the Sun: one East & one West (definite singular)

002: 115 To Allah belong the East and the West: whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah’s countenance. For Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing.

002: 258 Hast thou not turned thy vision to one who disputed with Ibrahim about his Lord, because Allah had granted him power? Ibrahim said: “My Lord is He Who giveth life and death.” He said: “I give life and death.” Said Ibrahim: “But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the East do thou then cause him to rise from the West?”

024: 035 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass; the glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the East nor of the West

026: 028 (Musa) said: “Lord of the East and the West, and all between! If ye only had sense!”

073: 09 (He is) Lord of the East and the West: there is no god but He: take Him therefore for (thy) Disposer of Affairs.

Answer 2 Nonetheless, the scribe of another surah contends that the Sun has two rising and setting points (definite plural!):

055: 17 (He is) Lord of the two Easts and Lord of the two Wests (meshriqeyn & magribeyn)

Answer 3 Finally, another scribe/other scribes claims/claim that the Sun has indefinite number of rising points: indefinite plural, meaning three or more!

037: 05 Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and all between them, and Lord of the Easts (every point at the rising of the sun!)

070: 40 Now I do call to witness the Lord of Easts and Wests (all points in the East and the West) that We can certainly… (meshariq & megarib)

This proves that the chapters of the Koran are products of different hands

Peace to all,
Angelos N.

 

[Angelos]

Thank you. This is what Quran had to prove by those challenge that, it is impossible to write a book, even ten chapters, even just one chapter like Quran. My dear, all those allegers had some reasons and the challenge remains unaccomplished for last 1500 years. Now try some other numerical discrepancy. At last all those gonna be proved illogical.

I really wonder what you Muslim guys would say if I produced a book like the Koran. Let me guess: no matter how skillful and stylistic my book would be, you would shout in a choir "YOUR BOOK IS NOT LIKE KORAN BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IT IS FORGED!!!

Thanks for your comments
Salaam
Angelos N.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The challenge was not changed or revised since it was not done to the same people.

Yes it was. Changing the conditions means the challenge was revised. Why was it revised? That’s what we would like to know.

khalfan:

Then it is just an assumption; Just a comment.

Sure. It’s a speculation on why Muhammad changed his challenge. If his challenge was not met then why change it to 10 surahs?

khalfan:

I think you have to go to the first page where Kadavery explains the situations for each challenge. Each challenge was to different people according to their own allegation. Since it was from GOD as part of Quran, Mohamed couldn’t exclude it from Quran. Hope that answers.

Why change it at all even to different sets of people? If you say it is impossible for anyone to invent a single surah like in the Quran why change it to ten?

Even today, the challenge remains - and we’re not the same people as existing as in Muhammad’s time, so it seems different sets of people are irrelevant to the challenge. Except for surah 2 which was revealed in Medinah while the other three were revealed in Mecca pre-hijrah.

I think you really have to come up with a plausible explanation of why Muhammad changed his challenge. That is the crux of the problem. Situational verses are not indicative of an all-knowing omni-sentient deity able to traverse time and space.

 

[Khalfan]

Interestingly, the Koran makes it clear that Allah’s signs to Mohammed were perverted even before Koran was written down:

041: 40 Those who pervert the Truth in Our Signs are not hidden from Us. Which is better? he that is cast into the Fire, or he that comes safe through, on the Day of Judgment? Do what ye will: verily He seeth (clearly) all that ye do.

It is talking about the people of books (Christains and Jews. example is given. Mark 16:9-20) before Quran.

More, the Koran implies that early Muslims tended to replace Allah’s truth with human lies:

016: 094-95 And take not your oaths, to practise deception between yourselves, with the result that someone’s foot may slip after it was firmly planted; and ye may have to taste the evil (consequences) of having hindered (men) from the Path of Allah, and a mighty Wrath descend on you.Nor sell the Covenant of Allah for a miserable price: for with Allah is (a prize) far better for you, if ye only knew.

Could you please show me verses in the Koran where Allah speaks to Issa directly? Uncannily, all these verses of the supposed revelation prove that Allah’s supposed revelation to Issa was recorded by a third party unknown to us. Besides, I fail to distinguish Allah’s words from human remarks in your scripture when Issa’s story is in question. Consider the following example:

How possibly you ask for a verse in Quran of direct converstion between GOD and Jesus, when Quran talks to some one who lived 540 years after Jesus? Use logic. GOD reports history to Mohamed in Quran. (You said, you are an ex-Muslim. Now I doubt that)

004: 157-158 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But **Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. **

Who is the speaker here??? It is apparent that human interpretation of Jesus’ crucifixion was somehow mingled with supposedly divine revelation! The last sentence was most probably added to the Koran by a scribe! I can give you tens of these examples, which demonstrate that it is impoosible to say Allah’s words from human interpretation in the Koran

Peace,
Angelos N.

Very easy. GOD wanted to prove his presence by name. Check the very first chapter. Was GOD praying to himself? No. He wanted to teach us what he can do for us of what we should submitt ourselves. Do your reseach in Arabic language, since translations in english can be misunderstood.

 

[Angelos]

It is talking about the people of books (Christains and Jews. example is given. Mark 16:9-20) before Quran.

The so-called people of the book do not use the word ayah (sign) while referring to God’s revelation! More, the sentence is in simple present tense, which indicates the perversion of the supposed revelation (Koran) in process

How possibly you ask for a verse in Quran of direct conversation between GOD and Jesus, when Quran talks to some one who lived 540 years after Jesus? Use logic. GOD reports history to Mohamed in Quran. (You said, you are an ex-Muslim. Now I doubt that)

I use my logic and somehow see many verses in your Scripture where your Allah uses first person plural pronoun (we) while reporting history to his alleged prophet! For instance:

028: 007 And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

The verse above was taken from the surah called “the story”. It is strange that Allah says “we” rather than repeat His name!
Sorry to hear that there are such inconsistencies in your scripture. Now I also doubt you have read the whole Koran.

Very easy. GOD wanted to prove his presence by name. Check the very first chapter. Was GOD praying to himself? No. He wanted to teach us what he can do for us of what we should submitt ourselves. Do your reseach in Arabic language, since translations in english can be misunderstood.

First, I wonder why Allah did not choose proving His direct revelation and presence through the use of the pronoun “we” as he mostly does in other places. You should know that the use of the name mostly indicates reporting through ascription

Second, you have a false analogy: prayer and narratives are different! Besides, the opening chapter denotes inspiration rather than revelation.

Third, thanks for your friendly advice. If I had approved of submission to Arabic language and culture, I would not have converted!

Salaam,
Angelos N.

 

[Khalfan]

I really wonder what you Muslim guys would say if I produced a book like the Koran. Let me guess: no matter how skillful and stylistic my book would be, you would shout in a choir "YOUR BOOK IS NOT LIKE KORAN BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT IT IS FORGED!!!

Thanks for your comments
Salaam
Angelos N.

Give it a try. let me quote some verses which we believe no man could ever say 1500 years ago. check jalyat.net/miracles.html
create something like these if you wish to challenge Quran. Just even one verse will do.

 

[Angelos]

Give it a try. let me quote some verses which we believe no man could ever say 1500 years ago. check jalyat.net/miracles.html
create something like these if you wish to challenge Quran. Just even one verse will do.

Hi Khalfan,

I appreciate your zeal in defending your scripture.
However, you yourself admit that I am supposed to forge some verses which only YOU MUSLIMS believe no man could ever say 1500 years ago. Be sure I shall have no time and go out of space if I ever try posting here the verses that the scribes of the Koran quoted from various sources, including apocryphal Jewish and Christian literature. (I also have so many examples to demonstrate the major textual problems in your scripture)

I must tell you that I wrote a project on the distortion of many Koran verses for the sake of the false Islamic propaganda aiming to make people believe in the alleged scientific miracles of the Koran.

As soon as I am done with the analysis of these numerical discrepancies, I shall start a new threat to debunk the scientic claims of the Islamic Scripture. You will not be able to believe your eyes and ears for sure

Salaam,
Angelos N.

 

[Khalfan]

Hi Khalfan,

I appreciate your zeal in defending your scripture.
However, you yourself admit that I am supposed to forge some verses which only YOU MUSLIMS believe no man could ever say 1500 years ago. Be sure I shall have no time and go out of space if I ever try posting here the verses that the scribes of the Koran quoted from various sources, including apocryphal Jewish and Christian literature. (I also have so many examples to demonstrate the major textual problems in your scripture)

I must tell you that I wrote a project on the distortion of many Koran verses for the sake of the false Islamic propaganda aiming to make people believe in the alleged scientific miracles of the Koran.

As soon as I am done with the analysis of these numerical discrepancies, I shall start a new threat to debunk the scientic claims of the Islamic Scripture. You will not be able to believe your eyes and ears for sure

Salaam,
Angelos N.

Good job man. I appreciate that. I will wait until then. Please make sure, it is not just your version of interpretation. Have some solid evidence too for your claims.

Where are you from?

 

[Khalfan]

The so-called people of the book do not use the word ayah (sign) while referring to God’s revelation! More, the sentence is in simple present tense, which indicates the perversion of the supposed revelation (Koran) in process

I use my logic and somehow see many verses in your Scripture where your Allah uses first person plural pronoun (we) while reporting history to his alleged prophet! For instance:

028: 007 And We inspired the mother of Moses, saying: Suckle him and, when thou fearest for him, then cast him into the river and fear not nor grieve. Lo! We shall bring him back unto thee and shall make him (one) of Our messengers.

The verse above was taken from the surah called “the story”. It is strange that Allah says “we” rather than repeat His name!
Sorry to hear that there are such inconsistencies in your scripture. Now I also doubt you have read the whole Koran.

First, I wonder why Allah did not choose proving His direct revelation and presence through the use of the pronoun “we” as he mostly does in other places. You should know that the use of the name mostly indicates reporting through ascription

Second, you have a false analogy: prayer and narratives are different! Besides, the opening chapter denotes inspiration rather than revelation.

Third, thanks for your friendly advice. If I had approved of submission to Arabic language and culture, I would not have converted!

Salaam,
Angelos N.

**1) How old are you? How do you expect those israeli people using aramic and hebrew to use an arabic word AYAH?!!!

1. Even Queen elizabeth uses the same word WE to represent herself. Does that claim trinity?
2. It is not only about first chapter, in each chapter you can find reasons for misunderstandig. The one should explain it, is the Prophet and he did it well. Those reference will help you a lot.
3. Now, be honest at least to yourself. What you converted to? Learn about it. Learn the details about it before you convert to anything else.**

 

[Angelos]

**1) How old are you? How do you expect those israeli people using aramic and hebrew to use an arabic word AYAH?!!! **

Hi Khalfan

The angrier you get, the less understandable your posts become
I never expect Hebrews to use the word “AYAH”, this is exactly why I wrote in my previous response that AYAH was an Islamic term used in the Koran for the sentences supposedly revealed from Allah to Mohammed. In short, the verse I quoted highlights the fact that it was the Koran verses that were perverted by Muslims.
Khalfan;1986883:

1. Even Queen elizabeth uses the same word WE to represent herself. Does that claim trinity?

You must be kidding! My post did not even imply anything related to the Trinitarian faith. Re-read my response please: it was an example given to illustrate how the Koran uses WE while recounting historical narratives.

1. It is not only about first chapter, in each chapter you can find reasons for misunderstandig. The one should explain it, is the Prophet and he did it well. Those reference will help you a lot.

You are going off-topic again, but anyway. I still believe that the first chapter - and we know that it was not the first chapter allegedly revealed or dictated to Mohammed! - is the foremost example of the Judeo-Christian notion of inspiration vs revelation in the Koran. Unlike many other surahs recited during salat, this chapter does not have the command “KUL” (say) at the beginning of this prevalent Islamic prayer.

1. Now, be honest at least to yourself. What you converted to? Learn about it. Learn the details about it before you convert to anything else.

Now be honest at least to yourself and please stop attacking me personally instead of trying to debunk my theories. Thanks for your sarcastic advice

Peace to you,
Angelos N.