Nun Automatically Excommunicated For Approving Abortion

[Rence]

FYI all of you! I cam back to the chburch with thoughts that there were provisions for a woman who wa going to die unless she had the child removed so shecould live … This NUN madde the right decision if not let me knnow and i will go to an athiest site to forget aqll about this mess of a relgion.`I would never go back to that hospital ever again shecoud have died an if she wasin the wildeness who wouldhave keep the child? Youom people are baby happy and a life means absolutly nothing to ou. Woman suffer just as nuch in this faith as they do as athe mOrmons do. Nothing is worht living like you do. I am cathlic but i stay home and i am proud of it expecialy after this.

Unfortunately, yes, those are the rules of the Catholic Church: a woman cannot have an abortion to save her life. But that’s not a good reason to leave the Catholic Church if you really believe it’s the One True Church. I suggest that instead of getting that upset about it here, you consult with your priest. Talk to him about your concerns and let him explain it all and answer all of your questions

 

[Brendan]

Unfortunately, yes, those are the rules of the Catholic Church: a woman cannot have an abortion to save her life.)

Rence,

Let’s say that I needed a heart transplant to survive. Let’s also say I knew who a compatable donor was.

Would you say it would be a moral thing for me to kill that person so I could save my own life?

Should the Church be silent in such a case?

 

[WatchingMedia]

Anyone participating in an abortion is automatically excommunicated.
See CCC, 2nd Edition, paragraphs 2270 - 2273

If folks had read their Catechism, this would be no surprise.

 

[Rence]

as a woman in the Church I can definitely say that life is worth living for Catholic women.

With all due respect, and with no offense intended Seekerz, I don’t agree. I wish I could agree, and I’m glad that you feel the way you do. But I wish I could feel that way too. Unfortunately the more I know about what the Catholic Church requires of women, the less regard I feel they have for women. IMOHO, I feel very unimportant to the Church, simply because I am a woman. And I feel that the CC isn’t very different from the Muslims regarding how insignificant a woman is, and a some 200-page document from the Vatican explaining how wonderful women are just doesn’t cut it when we are treated as insignificant as insects to step on, even less than that. And that’s really how I’ve been feeling lately. Not a very comfortable place to be…

 

[catharina]

Wow Catherina, I’m so glad you’ve come along and that we no longer need to listen to the Holy Father, because obviously, you’ve decided to stand in for him. And since you’re judging people, I guess that we won’t have to worry about God judging us anymore - you’ve taken that job over. Again, I say, you have no idea about what you speak - until you have been in a situation - been the one whose life is slipping away by the moment and has a family and a husband who desperately don’t want you to die oh and the idea isn’t to thrilling to you either because you love life. You can sit on high all you want, but at least I know God knows my heart, which you don’t and I have no doubt that He will take care of the sould of my Fetus/Baby that perished. And at least I know that in the(religious, Jewish) law that Jesus was brought up in, that had the technology been available, that at least we know compassion to the mother would at least have occured.Just so you know - just because you don’t agree with every teaching of the Church, doesn’t mean you’re not Catholic. Once your daughter has slipped away and your grandchild (don’t know if you have kids but from your profile, it looks like you won’t be ending up in any of these situations yourself)- and your son in law is beside himself with grief, trying to console the other 3 kids and explaining that mommy had to die because we were hoping for a miracle from God and God decided to say no - and telling you, "I hope you’re happy - now not only do I have a dead child, I have a dead wife and mother to my other children - some, who are old enough to know their mother could have been saved -and the others not caring just wanting their mommy back- I’m sure that reciting them Catholic docterine will help them understand and make them all alright with why their mommy and little brother had to die. The Church is supposed to show compassion - (luckily I have had priests show me compassion and even a Bishop tell me that I had no other choice. But apparently, a woman on CAF knows better than all of them. Once you’ve dealt with it as the mother who’s life is now just a memory or the mother of said person and grandmother to the children or even one of the children - when you’ve dealt with this from that point of view - then I’ll listen to you deliver your dogmatic diatribes - until then, I think I’ll just put you on ignore.
God Bless
Rye

rye - not sure how I became your target but whatever …
I’m re-stating and supporting Church teaching re abortion.
The teaching has never changed and it never will chnage.
I’ll continue to support it no matter how it upsets some others.

If you have a problem with the teaching of the Church, say so.
Please don’t pretend that anyone is making a target of you. Nobody’s done that.

 

[Rence]

Rence,
Let’s say that I needed a heart transplant to survive. Let’s also say I knew who a compatable donor was.
Would you say it would be a moral thing for me to kill that person so I could save my own life?
Should the Church be silent in such a case?

The question does not apply to the situation we are discussing.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I cnanot improve on Rence’s reply #119.

We are not in a position to judge moral dilemmas faced by others we are not a party to, particularly when those moral dilemmas involve choosing between competing goods, equally important lives, etc., in complex and emergency medical situations. And simply being trained in theology, and specifically in bioethics, is not enough. Even on the secular level, when there’s a malpractice question or other ethical situation a doctor is accused of, a full trial exposing all the details, timing, sequence, communication, etc., takes place, in which those judging have access to all the particulars – which we here on CAF do not have. We have broad facts, but the particulars can make all the difference, modifying those broad facts.

In these situations we are always bound ultimately by our consciences. Despite popular CAF opinion, classic Catholic theology has not changed, in that the most informed conscience in the world is ultimately still existentially alone, and must make its personal decisions from the internal light which shines in it. God requires us to act within the fullness of our knowledge, particular to the situations we are confronted with. He does not ask us to act beyond what is humanly knowable. He does and will judge us according to our honest consciences during finite moments which require immediate decisions. Thus, no one of us can judge either the extent of someone else’s knowledge, or the sincerity/clarity of that person’s conscience when making a decision.

Even other physicians do not make judgments about the actions of other physicians unless they are in full possession of all of the particulars of the incident, and their training and experience about possible scenarios far exceeds those of any non-medically trained cleric or layperson.

Ryecroft, you are in my prayers, as always.

 

[catharina]

I cnanot improve on Rence’s reply #119.

We are not in a position to judge moral dilemmas faced by others we are not a party to, particularly when those moral dilemmas involve choosing between competing goods, equally important lives, etc., in complex and emergency medical situations. And simply being trained in theology, and specifically in bioethics, is not enough. Even on the secular level, when there’s a malpractice question or other ethical situation a doctor is accused of, a full trial exposing all the details, timing, sequence, communication, etc., takes place, in which those judging have access to all the particulars – which we here on CAF do not have. We have broad facts, but the particulars can make all the difference, modifying those broad facts.

In these situations we are always bound ultimately by our consciences. Despite popular CAF opinion, classic Catholic theology has not changed, in that the most informed conscience in the world is ultimately still existentially alone, and must make its personal decisions from the internal light which shines in it. God requires us to act within the fullness of our knowledge, particular to the situations we are confronted with. He does not ask us to act beyond what is humanly knowable. He does and will judge us according to our honest consciences during finite moments which require immediate decisions. Thus, no one of us can judge either the extent of someone else’s knowledge, or the sincerity/clarity of that person’s conscience when making a decision.

Even other physicians do not make judgments about the actions of other physicians unless they are in full possession of all of the particulars of the incident, and their training and experience about possible scenarios far exceeds those of any non-medically trained cleric or layperson.

Ryecroft, you are in my prayers, as always.

Of course, the primacy of the conscience is accepted.
Yet the conscience is to be INFORMED.
For Catholics who have been graced with the gift of faith,
conscience is to be INFORMED by Church teachings.

There is no Church teaching that allows for approval of direct abortion.
An informed Catholic conscience always holds that fact to be of primary importance.

 

[WatchingMedia]

We are on earth just a short while.
If we care about our eternal salvation, we will not commit murder. Abortion is murder.
God’s will is more important than our own will.

Anyone participating in an abortion is automatically excommunicated.
See CCC, 2nd Edition, paragraphs 2270 - 2273

If folks had read their Catechism, this would be no surprise. Please read your Catechism.

(As an aside at 11 weeks a baby is already sucking his/her thumb, and responds to stimulas)

 

[Elizabeth502]

We’re going to go round and round here, because Church teaching is not exhaustive for every medical situation, as I mentioned. The informed conscience also must act when faced with two extremely likely deaths, a possibility that extends beyond abortion cases but other choices too. I think many posters here, not to mention elsewhere on CAF, have no idea how many life-and-death decisions physicians make on a regular basis – decisions which are not covered, foreshadowed, or even implied by the full extent of Catholic moral teaching, but are very much in gray areas or untried waters. But as I said, even Catholic theology does not require the omniscience and perfection required by some posters on CAF.

We’ll have to answer for our consciences, in our own last personal judgment, no matter how well informed those consciences are. We won’t be asked about whether we blindly followed a regulation, regardless of unpredicted dilemmas. We’ll be called to account for how well we listened to the Holy Spirit in the moment in time in which we made the decision, not the moment in time in which a regulation was written. We’re responsible for our own consciences, not those of others.

 

[catharina]

We’re going to go round and round here, because Church teaching is not exhaustive for every medical situation, as I mentioned. The informed conscience also must act when faced with two extremely likely deaths, a possibility that extends beyond abortion cases but other choices too. I think many posters here, not to mention elsewhere on CAF, have no idea how many life-and-death decisions physicians make on a regular basis – decisions which are not covered, foreshadowed, or even implied by the full extent of Catholic moral teaching, but are very much in gray areas or untried waters. But as I said, even Catholic theology does not require the omniscience and perfection required by some posters on CAF.

We’ll have to answer for our consciences, in our own last personal judgment, no matter how well informed those consciences are. We won’t be asked about whether we blindly followed a regulation, regardless of unpredicted dilemmas. We’ll be called to account for how well we listened to the Holy Spirit in the moment in time in which we made the decision, not the moment in time in which a regulation was written. We’re responsible for our own consciences, not those of others.

The Holy Spirit Who leads and guards the Church will never lead
any person to ignore or repudiate the teachings of the Church.

It’s an impossible propostion to argue otherwise.

 

[doughnut]

We’re going to go round and round here, because Church teaching is not exhaustive for every medical situation, as I mentioned. The informed conscience also must act when faced with two extremely likely deaths, a possibility that extends beyond abortion cases but other choices too. I think many posters here, not to mention elsewhere on CAF, have no idea how many life-and-death decisions physicians make on a regular basis – decisions which are not covered, foreshadowed, or even implied by the full extent of Catholic moral teaching, but are very much in gray areas or untried waters. But as I said, even Catholic theology does not require the omniscience and perfection required by some posters on CAF.

We’ll have to answer for our consciences, in our own last personal judgment, no matter how well informed those consciences are. We won’t be asked about whether we blindly followed a regulation, regardless of unpredicted dilemmas. We’ll be called to account for how well we listened to the Holy Spirit in the moment in time in which we made the decision, not the moment in time in which a regulation was written. We’re responsible for our own consciences, not those of others.

I love your post.

 

[Elizabeth502]

If folks had read their Catechism, this would be no surprise.

Folks have. It includes a part about not letting born persons die, as well, when one is in a position to do something about the survival of the born person.

The bottom line is that too many posters on CAF, not trained medically, believe that there is never a choice that has to be made, when both lives cannot be saved to any degree of medical likelihood. It is always assumed that in every single case the mother will survive, despite grave indications that she is fading fast. That is something from our distance we cannot know.

 

[catharina]

Folks have. It includes a part about not letting born persons die, as well, when one is in a position to do something about the survival of the born person.

The bottom line is that too many posters on CAF, not trained medically, believe that there is never a choice that has to be made, when both lives cannot be saved to any degree of medical likelihood. It is always assumed that in every single case the mother will survive, despite grave indications that she is fading fast. That is something from our distance we cannot know.

… and you will provide such quotes from the Catechism?

 

[Rence]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth502
We’re going to go round and round here, because Church teaching is not exhaustive for every medical situation, as I mentioned. The informed conscience also must act when faced with two extremely likely deaths, a possibility that extends beyond abortion cases but other choices too. I think many posters here, not to mention elsewhere on CAF, have no idea how many life-and-death decisions physicians make on a regular basis – decisions which are not covered, foreshadowed, or even implied by the full extent of Catholic moral teaching, but are very much in gray areas or untried waters. But as I said, even Catholic theology does not require the omniscience and perfection required by some posters on CAF.

We’ll have to answer for our consciences, in our own last personal judgment, no matter how well informed those consciences are. We won’t be asked about whether we blindly followed a regulation, regardless of unpredicted dilemmas. We’ll be called to account for how well we listened to the Holy Spirit in the moment in time in which we made the decision, not the moment in time in which a regulation was written. We’re responsible for our own consciences, not those of others.

**The Holy Spirit Who leads and guards the Church will never lead
any person to ignore or repudiate the teachings of the Church.

It’s an impossible propostion to argue otherwise**.

I agree with both of these posts. That’s why I think everyone involved not only did the right thing by protecting their patient, and preserving her life in a lose-lose situation, but by being reconciled with the Church after absolution.

 

[catharina]

I agree with both of these posts. That’s why I think everyone involved not only did the right thing by protecting their patient, and preserving her life in a lose-lose situation, but by being reconciled with the Church after absolution.

Whatever leads you to that conclusion?

 

[Rence]

Whatever leads you to that conclusion?

Is that a trick question?

 

[seekerz]

With all due respect, and with no offense intended Seekerz, I don’t agree. I wish I could agree, and I’m glad that you feel the way you do. But I wish I could feel that way too. Unfortunately the more I know about what the Catholic Church requires of women, the less regard I feel they have for women. IMOHO, I feel very unimportant to the Church, simply because I am a woman. And I feel that the CC isn’t very different from the Muslims regarding how insignificant a woman is, and a some 200-page document from the Vatican explaining how wonderful women are just doesn’t cut it when we are treated as insignificant as insects to step on, even less than that. And that’s really how I’ve been feeling lately. Not a very comfortable place to be…

I totally understand. Sorry you feel that way. I love my Church but speak my mind (probably too much) and when things don’t make sense to me - which applies to much of what is being discussed here - I let that be known.

If people are going to be excommunicated for applying principles of faith to medical complications of pregnancy, then the Church has a responsibility to be quite explicit about specifically what is and is not licit (as in procedure names, example scenarios) in dealing with pre-viable life. It is not enough to give us guidelines (which the majority of Catholic women/doctors whom I know have never been instructed in anyway, such as the principle of double effect).

 

[catharina]

Is that a trick question?

Certainly not.
Why do you conclude that all have sought absolution?

 

[catharina]

I totally understand. Sorry you feel that way. I love my Church but speak my mind (probably too much) and when things don’t make sense to me - which applies to much of what is being discussed here - I let that be known.

If people are going to be excommunicated for applying principles of faith to medical complications of pregnancy, then the Church has a responsibility to be quite explicit about specifically what is and is not licit (as in procedure names, example scenarios) in dealing with pre-viable life. It is not enough to give us guidelines (which the majority of Catholic women/doctors whom I know have never been instructed in anyway, such as the principle of double effect).

The Church meets its responsibility in explicit teachings.
The use of abortion is never allowed in the life of any Catholic.