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Lepanto
Guest
I thought historians consider it a matter of speculation if they had ever met.
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JReducation
Guest
Actually, they were both present at the Lateran Council. That’s how we know that they met. They were invited by the Holy Father as theological consultants.I thought historians consider it a matter of speculation if they had ever met.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Havard
Guest
The way I see it, I think a lot of Catholics are just at a loss for how rampant “cafeteria” Catholicism is. Some of America’s most visible Catholics - Speaker Pelosi, Vice President Biden, the late Senator Kennedy - have advocated positions on abortion that are contrary to Church teaching. Then people go to Mass and hope to hear homilies on life issues, but find that the topic is rarely if ever addressed. I think a lot of the laity perceives the visible Church authorities as being “too timid” to address “hot-button issues.” So people get overly zealous in their desire to see it all corrected.
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DOShea
Guest
Br. JR, thanks for your clarifying posts re: orders, societies, and all of that. Sometimes that is a nightmare to navigate through, so it is good to have knowledgeable folks like you to help us wade through it.
I’m not sure anyone is really looking for “punishment” per se, what I think people are mystified over is how anyone with any kind of Catholic title with their name can, seemingly, be on independent ops apart from Church teaching for years and years and years without anyone correcting it. What further confounds, and I’m speaking only for myself here, is that we’re told how important these teachings are, so important that the Holy Fathers are writing encyclicals about them, yet we see actions that appear to be in open defiance of something every Catholic everywhere is supposed to hold as truth without so much as a word or action to counter it.
So the question becomes not just why isn’t someone addressing the issue now, but how did the problem fester for decades without action? Why does it take bad press and a few headlines in a major newspaper to make those in authority finally act? It may not be ignorance or willful ignoring of a problem for a long time since we aren’t privy to the individual relationship with their community, but it certainly comes across that way. And, it isn’t the only case, in fact there are many cases where discord even to the point of heresy seems to be tolerated for quite some time.
In another post, you spoke very eloquently on the subject of obedience, every word of it was valuable. How then are people supposed to see the value in something like obedience on one hand while they see before them living examples of open defiance gone unchecked? It has to call into question who or what one is willing to be obedient to? I don’t mean that in a way to cast doubt on your own situation; I’m speaking of others who, in every day conversation with other Catholics, are trying to elevate those they speak with to a fuller knowledge of Church teaching while over there across the street Sr. Soandso is escorting people into the abortion clinic lest someone assault them with a decade of Rosary or something.
We are, after all, weak. Weakness doesn’t look upon the opportunity to be obedient to some authority that will not correct the openly defiant as meaningful. Why bother? That’s why there is such a cry to have this kind of behavior checked - corrected, to use your word - and certainly not go on for years. I believe it is the continual frustration at the sight of these situations that leads the cry to be shrill to the point of seeming to be a petition for punishment. Really all people want is to see those in authority act with justice.
Somewhere out there is a faithful Catholic denying their own participation in the Eucharist because the Church teaches it is wrong for them in their particular situation to receive it. They turn on the news and see stuff like Sr. Soandso, and begin to wonder why rules are so important in their case, but not the in the case of an abortion escort. It comes down to a perception of fairness and justice that is so distorted it is difficult to reconcile with truth.
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JReducation
Guest
It is lot of information. What we normally it during the novitiate year. It takes about that long to understand all of it, There are many distinctions between the vows of one form of religious life and another. We all live according to the Evangelical Counsels, but they are not equally binding. This is the case with Sr. Donna.
Sister is a member of a congregation. The counsel of obedience is not the same for her as it is for me, because I’m in an order. Add to that the fact that she made simple vows and I made solemn vows. That mitigates some things too, for her, not for me. For example, she does not have to have a superior. I do.
This may answer the question about authority. In a congregation with simple vows, you need not have a major superior, if the religious do not want one. In an order or a congregation that has a single major superior, that superior has legal authority over the members of the community. That superior can impose rules under holy obedience. If government is by council, no member of the council or even the council itself can impose rules under holy obedience.
For example, if you belong to the Franciscan order, we have major superiors. The Rule and the Constitutions give that superior certain authority. One of the rights that it gives them is the right to moral government over the community. They can demand, under penalty of grave sin, even excommunication, that you obey. If you belong to Sister’s community, they are not an order. They have a governing council and the council has a president or by some other title. They can council, direct, guide, dialogue, but they cannot impose penalties under pain of sin. The Holy See would come down so hard on the council that they would not know what hit them. It is a violation of the constitutions, which religious may never do. The first rule of religious law is that you never correct a sin by violating the common law.
It’s not a matter of not being swift or of being too soft. It’s a matter of law. There are some things that you cannot do with religious, which you can do with the laity. Since most lay people don’t know this, they become frustrated. This I understand.
One of two things often happen. Sometimes there is just plain abdication of duties. I believe there is no excuse for this. Those responsible with the government of a religious community have a duty to their own people to govern wisely or not be in leadership. Let someone else do it. It does not matter whether you have a major superior or a council. In either case, leadership is a moral duty.
Then there is a second reality. We can’t always make people do what they do not want to do and we do not have the means to change them. We can’t impose physical harm on them, as much as we would like to throttle them… Trust me, I’ve wished I could. Only to end having to go to confession. There are some people who are just plain stubborn. It’s like having that one child who won’t tow the line. It’s easy to say that one should dismiss such a person from religious life. As I’ve said before, in justice a community can do this. But then the Church holds the community’s feet to the fire, because she also demands that the community take care of their own and never put anyone out to be homeless. That’s a violation of charity, which always supersedes justice. Let’s face it, from the pictures and the dates on this problem, Sister is not a spring chicken. Can she realistically be expected to start over?
I don’t know if you folks know this, but when you leave a religious community, the community owes you nothing. This means that you leave with the clothes on your back and a few personal belongings. In my own community we give a departing member $500.00. That’s it. If you have no place to go and no job, you’re on the street. Five-hundred is all that the statutes allow us to offer. This is why it is very delicate to put someone out until you have tried every other possibility to help the person. If they ask to leave, then that’s their responsibility.
If Sister wishes to believe that everyone is wrong and she’s right, at least she’s not doing the escorting. In my mind, I let her believe whatever she wants. In this case, the good is that she is not escorting people into an abortion mill. The better would be if she put distance between her opinions and herself. From reading the news, I don’t get the impression that she’s ready for that. Of course, I’m not involved in the dialogue behind closed doors. The media can be trusted to a certain extent.
I’ve always believed that perceptions are everything for us as individuals. I understand how things come across and affect our reactions. Here is an area where all of us have to grow. Authority has its rights, ex officio non ex sui virtus. In the constitutions of my community we have this expression. Authority has its rights, because of the office, not because of its virtue. We obey even the most evil sinner because he has legal authority to command obedience, not because he is good. As long as what he commands is morally good, we must obey. That why the orders always teach their novices to sublimate their opinions, wishes, desires, expectations, questions and so forth. Unless you can do this, obedience to a person in authority can be very stressful when that person is less than perfect. You have to put those things aside.
Trust me, this is not a joy ride for any religious community. I’m just glad that I don’t live in that house with Sister. The tension must be very high. Besides, I find her scary. She may be a nice person, who knows.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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2maronites
Guest
Greetings, In all of these situations of Catholics causing scandals because of their outspoken beliefs that are contrary to God’s and Catholic teaching, we need to pray for a conversion of heart. I am sure all of you are already doing that. Look at what happened during the 40 Days for Life campaign this year. A director of an abortion clinic stepped down and is now Pro Life! An abortion facility closed Oct 30 another is closing Nov 20 due to “a decline in business” A total of five closed in the last two months and 8 employees have left their jobs at abortion facilities during the same time. Praise God and the prayers of the faithful. The same thing can happen with the Sr. Quinns and Pelosis of the world. I wrote to the three bishops involved w/ Sr. Quinn about stopping her public behavior/scandal but I added that I was praying for them and Sr. Quinn, one replied and is writing to me. I wrote to Nancy Pelosi and asked her to think about her faith and that she is included in our rosary prayers, she did not reply.
One may wonder how these things go on so long before someone in hierarchy steps in and reprimands them but we need to tell them and do so in charity. Maybe a bishop does not know as we do not write/call to inform them. We think “Someone else has probably done so already.” or think the bishop already knows and fault him for this oversight. I know I did in the past…and went to confession for uncharitable thoughts. The next time, I called a local Jesuit University and told them it is not in conformity with our Catholic Faith to offer a tarot card/palm reading and a cookie for donating blood. Another time I called and wrote to the archdiocese telling them about a parish that allows a nun to give the homily. Sometimes I receive a reply and sometimes I do not…but I let them know with charity what is going on. We do not want to put people in the street but neither do we want them to publicly teach/promote that which is against our beliefs. Maybe a penance for Sr. Quinn of praying the rosary everyday for a certain period of time for the souls of the lost babies and their families involved in abortion.
I only know that we need to continue to pray for the Sr. Quinns, politicians and all who are teaching by their actions that which will lead others astray. We are offering a Mass for “conversion of heart”.
Thank you Br. JR for all of your information.
One may wonder how these things go on so long before someone in hierarchy steps in and reprimands them but we need to tell them and do so in charity. Maybe a bishop does not know as we do not write/call to inform them. We think “Someone else has probably done so already.” or think the bishop already knows and fault him for this oversight. I know I did in the past…and went to confession for uncharitable thoughts. The next time, I called a local Jesuit University and told them it is not in conformity with our Catholic Faith to offer a tarot card/palm reading and a cookie for donating blood. Another time I called and wrote to the archdiocese telling them about a parish that allows a nun to give the homily. Sometimes I receive a reply and sometimes I do not…but I let them know with charity what is going on. We do not want to put people in the street but neither do we want them to publicly teach/promote that which is against our beliefs. Maybe a penance for Sr. Quinn of praying the rosary everyday for a certain period of time for the souls of the lost babies and their families involved in abortion.
I only know that we need to continue to pray for the Sr. Quinns, politicians and all who are teaching by their actions that which will lead others astray. We are offering a Mass for “conversion of heart”.
Thank you Br. JR for all of your information.
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dixieagle
Guest
My husband is a Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian.) We have close ties with the Sisters of St. Basil, who are Byzantine Catholic women religious with their Motherhouse at Mt. St. Macrina, Uniontown, PA. They are all called “Sister”. The Provincial used to be called “Mother”, but she is now simply referred to as “Sister…”It’s not that difficult for us. Yes, you usually call a nun, Sister. They were always called Sister. When the first communities of sisters were founded, people did not know anything but nuns, so they called these women, Sister. The title stuck.
By the way, if a nun is Eastern Catholic, you call her Mother, not Sister. In the Eastern Churches there are no sisters. All religious women are nuns. What happens is that women who want to be active sisters join Western communities. Now we are seeing some Byzantine communities of sisters; but they are rare. Usually, they are houses that belong to a Western congregation.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
In the past, many have been teachers, many now are DREs. They are very active! They have been around since the 4th century, and in the U.S. since 1941.
sistersofstbasil.org/
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Fitz
Guest
I was taught by these Dominican sisters in High School and College, and at that time I never saw any break with Catholic teachings. However, that was a long time ago and I know that when the sisters took jobs outside of teaching at Catholic schools, then their Mother House may not have been as directly involved with their daily whereabouts. I think that, as in any group, there is a range of beliefs amongst the sisters. Included in this group there may be some political activists, and I am glad they informed Sr. to stop the escorting job she was doing. Since I knew so many good and faithful Dominican sisters, this really breaks my heart.
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Lepanto
Guest
This is getting off topic, but there were hundreds of bishops at Lateran IV, not to mention probably a couple thousand aids and other priests and religious, attendants, etc. We still don’t know if Francis and Benedict had ever met. They never wrote that they did, to my knowledge, nor did any of their contemporaries.Actually, they were both present at the Lateran Council. That’s how we know that they met. They were invited by the Holy Father as theological consultants.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
They are not nuns. You can’t call them Mother, if they are not nuns. Among sisters, the only one who is called Mother is the Major Superior. This is only in some communities.
The Sisters of St. Basil are Eastern Rite, but they are an Amercian foundation. That’s why I said before that there are a few communities of Eastern Rite sisters. They are usually very new to the Church. By very new, I’m speaking within the last 300 years. As opposed to the 2,000 years of Eastern Catholic history. It seems to be a more common thing in the USA and I Lebanon of all places.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
Actually, Bonaventure alludes to it in one of his sermons when he speaks about the Lateran Council. Aquinas does too in a letter to Bonaventure. We do know something else too. The two orders partnered for a very long time to run universities. There was a long-standing oral tradition of the desire of Pope Innocent III to unite the two orders and having facilitated an introduction between the two founders.
Remember, most of what we know about the early Franciscans was never written. And that which was written was ordered burned by Bonaventure when he was Minister General. A lot of what we have in writing are copies of the originals and duplicates of what was passed down by word of mouth.
In the end, it’s irrelevant to the history of the Dominicans and Franciscans whether our two Fathers met. It’s more important to the two communities that we have a shared history that goes back to the 1200s and at one time, we were very strong allies in combatting heresy. We went our separate ways during the Protestant Reformation. It had nothing to do with the Reformation, but with missionary actifvity. The crown sent us to different places.
That being said, neither the Franciscan nor the Dominican tradition would endorse the ideas nor behaviors of Sister Donna. However, both are adamant protectors, especially from the laity. Because our American laity tends to be very heavy-handed, while the tradition in both orders is a very fraternal one. We correct with, we do not punish. It is not within the competancy of the superiors in either order to punish. Both Francis and Dominic reserved punishment for themselves and never allowed their successors to exercise that power. It was banned from both orders. This was the cause of much distress and division among Franciscans through history, because some superiors adopted this from the Benedictines. They became very heavy-handed even to the point of having dungeons for dissident religious. Finally, the Capuchin reform put an end to this nonsense during the late 1500s.
Only bishops have the authority to punish and they have no authority over religious orders, only over congregations who work for them or are of diocesan right. Since Sister is a member of a congregation, not an order, it is up to the bishop to determine any punishment. We just have to wait and see what they decide when they meet.
In the meantime, let’s just be thankful that she’s no longer active in her “peacekeeping work.” I can’t understand, for the life of me, how this is peacekeeping.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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dixieagle
Guest
That is what I said; they are sisters. The Provincial had, indeed, formerly been called “Mother.”
Well, I guess you can take it up with the good Sisters of St. Basil, as their website says they have been in existence since the 4th century!!!
(In this country since early-mid 20th century, of course.)
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JReducation
Guest
Were the Sisters of St. Basil always apostolic or were they one of those communities that started as monastic and gradually evolved into an apostolic congregation? I’m askiong because that happened with many congregations. For example the Benedictine Sisters date back to St. Benedict and St. Scholastica, but they were originally monastic nuns. Over the centuries there were reforms and houses that became independent of the monastery. These evolved into the Benedictine Sisters vs the Benedictine Nuns. It also happened with Franciscans, Augustinians, Dominicans and Carmelites. The original communities were nuns. Today, there are more communities of sisters than of nuns. I don’t mean vs as in a copetition. But I couldn’t find a better way of saying it. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.That is what I said; they are sisters. The Provincial had, indeed, formerly been called “Mother.”
Well, I guess you can take it up with the good Sisters of St. Basil, as their website says they have been in existence since the 4th century!!!
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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dixieagle
Guest
I get you!Were the Sisters of St. Basil always apostolic or were they one of those communities that started as monastic and gradually evolved into an apostolic congregation? I’m askiong because that happened with many congregations. For example the Benedictine Sisters date back to St. Benedict and St. Scholastica, but they were originally monastic nuns. Over the centuries there were reforms and houses that became independent of the monastery. These evolved into the Benedictine Sisters vs the Benedictine Nuns. It also happened with Franciscans, Augustinians, Dominicans and Carmelites. The original communities were nuns. Today, there are more communities of sisters than of nuns. I don’t mean vs as in a copetition. But I couldn’t find a better way of saying it. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
As they claim history dating back to the 4th century (St. Basil and his sister, St. Macrina) it would appear they were originally “nuns”.
I’m posting some links, all detailing their history. I think there is actually a typo on one of the sites, as 1911, not 1941, was the year in which they came to the United States. They are preparing for their 100th anniversary in America in 2011.
stbasils.com/history.html
basiliansisters.org/home.html (Interesting in that this link mentions that there are also contemplative monasteries!)
sistersofstbasil.org/history.jsp (this is the site with the typo…)
They are wonderful sisters, and their medovnik
is heavenly!!!
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JReducation
Guest
I read the links. They were Basilian nuns who were brought out of the cloister to serve as missionaries in the USA in the 19th century. They evolved from being Basilian nuns to their current form, an active branch of sisters of the Basilian order. It’s the same experience as Franciscans, Dominicans and Carmelties.I get you!
As they claim history dating back to the 4th century (St. Basil and his sister, St. Macrina) it would appear they were originally “nuns”.
I’m posting some links, all detailing their history. I think there is actually a typo on one of the sites, as 1911, not 1941, was the year in which they came to the United States. They are preparing for their 100th anniversary in America in 2011.
stbasils.com/history.html
basiliansisters.org/home.html (Interesting in that this link mentions that there are also contemplative monasteries!)
sistersofstbasil.org/history.jsp (this is the site with the typo…)
They are wonderful sisters, and their medovnik
That’s why they can trace their origins back to Basil, because they have Basilian succession. They’re not a congregation that someone founded and gave them the Rule of St. Basil. They were actually Basilians who morphed into an active community. It seems, from the reading that you linked, that they didn’t actually become organized into the present form until the 1950s.
I was wondering, because it’s not typical for Eastern Churches to have active congregations of sisters that date back too long. That’s a fairly new concept for the Eastern Church. It’s a fairly new concept for the Western Church too. But we have had them a little longer than the Eastern Churches. As I said, it’s more common in the USA and among the Marinites (sp?) in Lebanon.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
This horribly misguided nun needs prayer, and much of it. Please keep her in your daily prayers that she may embrace orthodoxy and the true teaching of the Church.
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otjm
Guest
And I have no idea why you think I am particularly punitive, or seeking punitive measures.
I am old enough to have had nuns teach me all the way through grade school, and that before Vatican 2. And having experienced both good, and not so good nuns, there were probably a few who didn’t belong in the order; or in any case, not dealing with children (anger issues). That being neither particularly here nor there, I have watched, with some degree of dismay to put it politely, a group of dedicated woment wander off on all sorts of tangents. They used to have no problem recruiting - and yes, I know the world has changed a bit from what it was in the 50’s - but the most telling aspect is to look at which orders (groups - whatever) are having an influx of younger recruits, and which ones can barely manage a 40 or 50 year old recruit once every couple of years.
However, more to the point: there are groups of women religious who have gotten so far off the beaten path that they are no longer individually or collectively within the confines of the Catholic Church; it is simply a matter that there has benn no offical recognition of how far they have gone. And watching (which I do occasionally) the public comments about the visitiations, and the public comments coming out of the group about not cooperating with Rome should be sufficient for anyone listening that Rome is going to have to face reality. And that reality is that some women religious have removed themselves, by their theology, their sociology, philosophy and a few other issues, from the Catholic Church. And reality simply needs to be acknowledged.
Hans Kung has had his issues in theology; he wasn’t stripped of being a priest, but he was stripped of his ability to hold himself out as a Catholic theologian. And his comments recently concerning both the SSPX and the Anglicans re: the Pope are in line with his general views of ecclesiology. He can still be a darling of the left, but at least the Magisterium has stated his true postion. It is time they do likewise with the women religious who have strayed so far.
Punished? No, I would prefer some reality therapy. And some will not be cured; but at least, lets get some honesty in the dialogue.
The good nun/sister/woman religious was doing the escorting for how long? And her superior either had no clue what she was doing - which I suppose is possible - or she knew good and well what was going on and supported it. In either event, the superior was not within a country mile of doing what she was charged to do. Both of them had their heads where the sun doesn’t shine, and the Church needs to let some sun (Son) shine on this and related subjects. I am all for gentle guidance back to the right path. And I am also for calling a spade a spade, and if they won’t be guided, for at least publicly acknowledging they have cut themselves off from the Faith.
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SisterSnowflake
Guest
AMEN!!
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SisterSnowflake
Guest
OTJM…
I totally agree with you; the state of affairs is SAD but TRUE. I see nothing untrue in your post, in fact, I am in complete agreement with your assessment of the situation. There IS, without a doubt, a crisis among many religious in the U.S.; unfortunately, the radicals have the control in far too many congregations…there are MANY good, excellent, faithful, beautiful Sisters in our apostolic congregations today, but they are voiceless. Pray for them, especially…the ones who hold fast to Christ, community, & prayer and live as the best Sisters they can be, yet have had the congregations around them hi-jacked by loud people who think that they are helping by being “progressive” and “tolerant” (progressive and tolerant, as long as your views agree exactly with mine!).
I once had a college professor say, “Be open minded, but not so open minded that your brain falls out of your head”…sadly, a whole lotta brains have fallen out of a whole lotta heads.
God bless.
J
JReducation
Guest
No no no. Please accept my apology if I said this the wrong way. I was not speaking of your personally. I’m talking in general about Catholics in the USA. We have become a very angry community. I’ve always believed in something that St. Teresa of Avila said, “God save us from sour faced saints.”
I hope this clarifies things.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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